RIAA backs rootkits

[ROF]

That's great, but microsoft doesn't own Sony or any other of the major recording studios or independents. These producers of content have just as much right to protect or have their intellectual property protected from being copied as much as Microsoft has the right to make you reactivate your windows after reinstalling it on the same system as your previous activation. I fail to see where this has anything to do with Sonys rights or the rights of any other recording studio to protect their intellectual property from being copied at all or a limited number of times.

Just because Microsoft says it's so it must be OK?

[smearbrick1]

That's great, but microsoft doesn't own Sony or any other of the major recording studios or independents. These producers of content have just as much right to protect or have their intellectual property protected from being copied as much as Microsoft has the right to make you reactivate your windows after reinstalling it on the same system as your previous activation. I fail to see where this has anything to do with Sonys rights or the rights of any other recording studio to protect their intellectual property from being copied at all or a limited number of times.

Just because Microsoft says it's so it must be OK?

CD copying is legal (with licensed CD copying machines and audio CD-Rs) where is the problem? Where's the arguement? Sony is getting paid royalties based on the sale of both Audio CD-Rs and licensed CD recorders. Meanwhile, they are attempting to create copy protected Discs. While it doesn't appear that the Rootkit "virus" (it might as well be a virus) doesn't affect CD recorders, you can damn sure bet that this is just the beginning. If you need clarification on the whole CD copying legality thing, read the following:

Audio Home Recording ACT of 1992:

The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, an amendment to the U.S. federal Copyright Act of 1976. According to the AHRA, the manufacturers and importers of digital audio recording devices and media must pay a royalty tax to the copyright holders of music that is presumably being copied in order to compensate them for lost royalties due to consumers copying audio recordings at home. The payments are made to the U.S. Copyright office, which then distributes the royalties accordingly. Digital audio recording devices also must include a system that prohibits serial copying. The most common system in use is the Serial Copy Management System (SCMS), which permits first-generation digital-to-digital copies of prerecorded music but prohibits serial copies of those copies. In exchange, the copyright holders waive the right to claim copyright infringement against consumers using audio recording devices in their homes for noncommercial use. The royalty requirements do not apply to computers as they are not considered digital audio recording devices.

I do agree, however, that as the law reads, it is illegal to copy a CD on a computer, but this does not give the CD manufacturer the right to install potentially harmful software on said computer when the intent was merely to "play" the disc or to access the multimedia content.

[ROF]

The law says what Microsoft is advertising is illegal? Microsoft would never do anything unlawful.

[rkr1958]

ROF - The Fox News Channel of Videohelp.com.

That's uncalled for and totally irrelevant to this discussion. I'm a big fan of Fox News and I don't think we want to go down that road ... again ... see https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=271677&highlight=pbs
I'd appericate it if you watch your broad generalizations in the future.

[ROF]

ROF - The Fox News Channel of Videohelp.com.

That's uncalled for and totally irrelevant to this discussion. I'm a big fan of Fox News and I don't think we want to go down that road. I'd appericate it if you watch your broad generalization in the future.

It's usually better to just ignore people like that. They usually admit defeat or can't come up with a coherent reply so they post trolling comments or name calling. Isn't that a CNN tactic?

[BJ_M]

well how about sony's mp3 walkmans ?

they come with ripping software and instructions on how to back up your cd's and convert them to ATRAC3 and/or mp3


or even sony's new software for psp 's ? it will rip cd's as well as encode movies from dvds to the psp or even will help you download tunes ..

[ROF]

The law says one thing, Microsoft says another. Sony says one thing and markets their toys in contrary to what they are preaching. The only thing I can determine is the rootkit was a bad idea, but Sony is on track to hopefully find a solution to this dilemma. My personal opinion is that they leave the rootkit in place and just put warning labels on the CDs that use in a computer system may cause undue disruption of the security for that computer and it's network. In that way, everyone wins. People can still back up their CD but won't be violating the law by doing so with a computer system. Those who fail to read the warning label would be liable for their own misfortune when they get hacked.

[Cornucopia]

So if standalones are used where does the rootkit install itself and how does it effect the security of your standalone?

Follow this train of thought...

Existence of Rootkits on CD's = Existence of Enhanced Audio CD (Multisession)

Most standalone "Audio-CD-approved" recorders CAN'T duplicate Enhanced Audio CD's, because of the existence of Multisession/Data tracks.

The existence of CD's with rootkits breaks the capabilities of the CD recorder standalone, and therefore goes against the AHRA granted right of the consumer to make backups of those CDs via standalones.

Scott

[ROF]

Follow this train of thought...

Existence of Rootkits on CD's = Existence of Enhanced Audio CD (Multisession)

Most standalone "Audio-CD-approved" recorders CAN'T duplicate Enhanced Audio CD's, because of the existence of Multisession/Data tracks.

The existence of CD's with rootkits breaks the capabilities of the CD recorder standalone, and therefore goes against the AHRA granted right of the consumer to make backups of those CDs via standalones.

Show me where companies have to allow you this right? The AHRA may have given you the right, but I don't see anywhere that it says the CD providers have to allow it.

[Sillyname]

well how about sony's mp3 walkmans ?

they come with ripping software and instructions on how to back up your cd's and convert them to ATRAC3 and/or mp3


or even sony's new software for psp 's ? it will rip cd's as well as encode movies from dvds to the psp or even will help you download tunes ..

[BobK]

ROF - The Fox News Channel of Videohelp.com.

More like comedy channel's The Daily Show, but not as factual.

[mbellot]

I still say most people outside the technophiles don't even know this has occured. It was a mistake, Sony corrected it, and hopefully they'll introduce a much stronger method of protection which doesn't open security holes in computer networks.

This whole arguement is kind of pointless.

Sony can't make the protection strong enough to lock out PCs and still maintain compatibility with standard CD players.

The essence of the "protection" is installing software without the users knowledge or consent. Without that software the disc is copyable until the media can no longer be read.

Doing what Sony wants would require collusion with OS vendors (MS, Mac, etc) to embed the protection mechanism directly in the OS. Still not 100% secure (nothing truly is 100% secure while remaining accessible), but closer.

But that still leaves any previous version of Windows/OSX/etc wide open, not to mention linux which is not likely to implement this kind of garbage.

And to the people looking for a warning label, just look for the CD-DA logo. These CDs do NOT conform to Red Book standards and should not display the logo.

[Morse2]

Why am I not surprised about the RIAA's stance?

The quote that I find most interesting is the bit about "you can't copy windows or other software" - that is simply UNTRUE.

And I am NOT talking about "piracy" but legitimate backups here - you absolutely CAN make a copy of Windows. Moreover, do a search on "slipstreaming" and you will discover that MS not only condones but encourages certain kinds of copying of their own software, in which more advanced serrvice packs and self executing hotfixes are "rolled into" an older edition of Windows 2000 and XP. It is right there in their "knowledge database", for pity's sake!

Then you have companies like "Ahead Software" (Nero) that allow you to download full images of their software. Once you install your legally purchased license number, "bingo", you've got a nice new copy of the thing off the internet! Very useful if your original CD gets trashed.

In both these cases, issues of legitimate user backup are addressed responsibly. Now, compare that to the "big media" types - they want you to buy a replacement for every failed CD and DVD you have "bought a license to" without recourse to your legal right to an archival backup. (Yes Virginia, CD's and DVD's DO FAIL IN NORMAL USE - my full price store bought copies of Spartacus and Vertigo both died due to delamination of the multilayered discs - which is due to a manufacturing defect that is apparently common in double layer discs – so much for the “perfect forever” advertising that a lot of us bought into).

As far as the comment that " ...most people outside the technophiles don't even know this has occured....", that's irrelevant. The Sony rootkit incident is a "warning light" that should alert us to the dangers of adopting the sorts of DRM the “big media” lobby desires. Device incompatibility, malware masquerading as copy protection, loss of works of art due to "hardware locking" etc are all on the way. Thank heavens I already have my CD's, DVD's LP's and tapes. If anything ever happens to them, I'll just replace them with ones bought from the second hand CD and DVD store rather than new "high def" DRM contaminated versions. Gosh, big media - 'guess you've made your last dime off this old geezer.

Another thought: "Can you show me where it says in copyright law that you are entitled to copy your music and use it in 2 places at the same time?" - Hmmm, once you show me how I can personally BE in 2 places at the same time, then I'll give that ‘issue’ some very serious consideration....until then, I'll answer that concern like this - I DO NOT EVER, EVER PIRATE COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL. Period. Get it? Not one song, video, piece of software, or whatever*.

Is it REALLY that hard for the defenders of "big media" to believe that consumers are honest? If so, what does that say about their ethics?

*Unlike a certain media giant in the news recently that apparently heisted code from some GNU Licensed sources without attribution...which really IS illegal.

Rant over.
All the best guys!

[ROF]

"Can you show me where it says in copyright law that you are entitled to copy your music and use it in 2 places at the same time?" - Hmmm, once you show me how I can personally BE in 2 places at the same time, then I'll give that ‘issue’ some very serious consideration....until then, I'll answer that concern like this - I DO NOT EVER, EVER PIRATE COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL. Period. Get it? Not one song, video, piece of software, or whatever*.

Easy enough. I can be inside my house working on a video project and outside I could be changing my oil in my car. Inside I have the original CD playing while outside I have a copy of the same CD playing. Since I'm going inside periodically to check on the videos status and I don't want to miss a single beat of the album I have both playing at the same time. I could further be having a BBQ in the backyard with my MP3 Player blaring the same tracks. I could easily be in three places and listening to this music in three places on three different types of media (pressed CD, burnt CD, MP3). Since I own the original CD I didn't pirate the material however I am guilty of copyright infringement.

[Sillyname]

"Can you show me where it says in copyright law that you are entitled to copy your music and use it in 2 places at the same time?" - Hmmm, once you show me how I can personally BE in 2 places at the same time, then I'll give that ‘issue’ some very serious consideration....until then, I'll answer that concern like this - I DO NOT EVER, EVER PIRATE COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL. Period. Get it? Not one song, video, piece of software, or whatever*.

Easy enough. I can be inside my house working on a video project and outside I could be changing my oil in my car. Inside I have the original CD playing while outside I have a copy of the same CD playing. Since I'm going inside periodically to check on the videos status and I don't want to miss a single beat of the album I have both playing at the same time. I could further be having a BBQ in the backyard with my MP3 Player blaring the same tracks. I could easily be in three places and listening to this music in three places on three different types of media (pressed CD, burnt CD, MP3). Since I own the original CD I didn't pirate the material however I am guilty of copyright infringement.

One is expected to carry around the original CD like the cavemen on "Quest for Fire" carried around their lantern.

Welcome to the stone age.

[mbellot]

One is expected to carry around the original CD like the cavemen on "Quest for Fire" carried around their lantern.

Welcome to the stone age.

No, ROF would prefer it if you purchased a dozen or so copies of each CD to keep an original in each location you might visit.

I bet he would even find a multi-room audio system to somehow be an infringement.

[ROF]

One is expected to carry around the original CD like the cavemen on "Quest for Fire" carried around their lantern.

Welcome to the stone age.

No, ROF would prefer it if you purchased a dozen or so copies of each CD to keep an original in each location you might visit.

I bet he would even find a multi-room audio system to somehow be an infringement.

It very well could infringe depending on how it's used.

[Cornucopia]

wah, wah, wah, wah...wah!

Scott

[Sillyname]

One is expected to carry around the original CD like the cavemen on "Quest for Fire" carried around their lantern.

Welcome to the stone age.

No, ROF would prefer it if you purchased a dozen or so copies of each CD to keep an original in each location you might visit.

I bet he would even find a multi-room audio system to somehow be an infringement.

It very well could infringe depending on how it's used.

What if you got multiple personalities?

[mbellot]

One is expected to carry around the original CD like the cavemen on "Quest for Fire" carried around their lantern.

Welcome to the stone age.

No, ROF would prefer it if you purchased a dozen or so copies of each CD to keep an original in each location you might visit.

I bet he would even find a multi-room audio system to somehow be an infringement.

It very well could infringe depending on how it's used.

What if you got multiple personalities?

Oh god...

Hey wait. If you are deaf in one ear does that mean you should get all CD's for half price since you aren't hearing all of the music you are entitled to?

[Noahtuck]

One is expected to carry around the original CD like the cavemen on "Quest for Fire" carried around their lantern.

Welcome to the stone age.

No, ROF would prefer it if you purchased a dozen or so copies of each CD to keep an original in each location you might visit.

I bet he would even find a multi-room audio system to somehow be an infringement.

It very well could infringe depending on how it's used.

What if you got multiple personalities?

Oh god...

Hey wait. If you are deaf in one ear does that mean you should get all CD's for half price since you aren't hearing all of the music you are entitled to?

Well, that only counts if you are listening to it through headphones and it has to be set to "Stereo" because if you make it mono then you will be hearing everything through your one good ear if wearing headphones :P

[Sillyname]

One is expected to carry around the original CD like the cavemen on "Quest for Fire" carried around their lantern.

Welcome to the stone age.

No, ROF would prefer it if you purchased a dozen or so copies of each CD to keep an original in each location you might visit.

I bet he would even find a multi-room audio system to somehow be an infringement.

It very well could infringe depending on how it's used.

What if you got multiple personalities?

Oh god...

Hey wait. If you are deaf in one ear does that mean you should get all CD's for half price since you aren't hearing all of the music you are entitled to?

They'll make you buy a stereo to mono plug converter. Mind you we'll be forced to listen to all our music with headphones. No sharing!

And GOD help you if you even hum a tune!

[Noahtuck]

They'll make you buy a stereo to mono plug converter. Mind you we'll be forced to listen to all our music with headphones. No sharing!

And GOD help you if you even hum a tune!

Oh god!!!!!! the royalties could run inot millions!!!!!!!!!
I used to work at this place that was always playing cartoon theme songs over the intercoms, i used to catch myself walking around off work, at home, the store, out with friends, humming the theme to the jetsons without even realising it at first

P.S.
You dirty s.o.b.!!! posting almost the same thing i was at the exact same time

But i must have beat you by a micro second :P

[BJ_M]

i have a Yamaha MusicCAST Music Server that pumps cd music that i load onto it (as well as mp3's) throughout the house and (gasp) even outside ....

Yamaha should be sued ....

[ROF]

I have a similiar D-Link media player setup for audio and video. It's wireless-G and available to any secure client within range. As far as multiple personalities and music licensing goes I believe as long as only one personality is listening to the music at any given time you shouldn't be in violation. If you are, maybe music licensing shouldn't be your priority.

[BJ_M]

well i have sometimes 20 or 30 people over .. as well as family listening ...

the whole idea on the musiccast system is that you can pipe it everywhere and of course multiple people will hear the same thing .. otherwise what do you do ? kick everyone out of the hot tub and lock them into a closet when they also select the same thing in the kitchen ?

get real ...

btw -- the yamaha system is over 6 grand and the dlink system is about 200$ ... not quite the same thing

[painkiller]

Sheesh.

What a trip.

To get back on track here.....

Also don't forget that here, in the USA, we certainly have good old Orrin Hatch from Utah - who made it very clear he would be ecstatic to have all PC's of copyright infringers taken over by the RIAA.

SO.

We have a multinational company that actually DID that (to somewhere around half a million pc's worldwide at least). And it's likely that company won't be prosecuted for that action. [imagine that]

We have [certainly at least one] US Senator (see above) who insists on illegal approaches to copyright infringers. (surprised he doesn't call for the death penalty)

We have analysis from other organizations that indicate, despite the numbers of XCP rootkit infections, most average purchasers of audio cds or digital downloads aren't really affected since they mainly keep the media in other players and not their pcs.

Unless I miss my guess, sounds like this war is due to the fact the companies, such as SONY, are trying to get blood out of a stone.

Just how much profit do they expect to regain from all their expense to close all the supposed holes? On the surface, to me at least, the ROI would indicate all this effort is a wash and should be dropped as - the cost of doing business. Or does that make too much sense?

[VCDHunter]

Finally, just when it appeared that Sony had hit bottom, analysis of the rootkit revealed that it included open source software code contrary to the applicable licence.

In other words, Sony itself may have infringed the copyright of a group of software programmers and be on the hook for significant copyright infringement damages.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4456970.stm

Sony, do the words arse and elbow mean anything to you ?

[adam]

ROF I started to reply to this thread correcting certain incorrect points of law you mentioned and then I realized that I can just sum it all up simply by saying that everything you have said regarding copyright law in this thread has been wrong. I don't know what else to say, you are the most vocal person on this board about copyright law and copyright protections and you are the least knowledgable. I wish you would just stop, or at least do more research.

[adam]

Regarding computers to backup musical recordings, you are not automatically prohibited from using a computer to backup your media or to format shift (CD->mp3.) That "computers do not fall under the audio home recording act" language was held in A&M v. Napster and it was referring to downloading music via Napster as a method of backing up your music collection. The argument was not well recieved and if you read the statute there's no reason why it would have been.

But that doesn't mean that individual software titles can't comply with the AHRA. My assumption is that all those CD->mp3 software programs on the market are required to pay the 2% royaltiy under the AHRA and that consumers are perfectly within their rights to use such programs to make personal use copies of their CDs. But I've looked and I don't see any way to get a list of products required to pay the royalties, so if the product seems to qualify as a "digital audio recording device" (defined as being marketed and used primarily to make digital audio recordings) then they are most likely either paying the royalities or are in violation of the AHRA.