Need a high quality, low cost, basic video capturing device

[tonysolomon]

I have a few hundred vhs tapes that I'd like to edit and burn to DVDs. I don't need a remote, tv tuner, radio reception, or any software for the device. I just need to get my video from the vcr into my PC, so that I can edit it with a few programs that I have.

Does anybody know of a current product that fits this description and still sells at a descent price?

[lumis]

a standalone dvd recorder.

[kenmasters83]

the $95 walmart dvd recorder will suit your needs very well.

[lordsmurf]

It's not quite that simple.

If these tapes are damaged or have anti-copy of any kind, it's going to take a bit of hardware to purify the signal.

Editing is also a concern. How advanced does the editing need to be? MPEG (from a DVD recorder) is not suitable for everything.

[thecoalman]

I don't need a remote, tv tuner, radio reception, or any software for the device.

Most of that stuff is just extras, you'd be hard pressed to find one without a TV tuner or software. I't like tring to buy a car without a spare tire. The included sofware is just stripped down versions anyway except for the high end cards.

[FulciLives]

You might want to look at the Canopus ADVC-110 or the DataVideo DAC-100

Both of these are DV converter boxes. They have analog A/V inputs and then the box connects to the computer using IEEE 1394 (aka FIREWIRE also aka i.link). They will convert your analog A/V to DV format which is a format that is very easy to "work" with i.e., edit but then you have to use a software program to convert to MPEG-2 DVD spec.

The DataVideo DAC-100 will ignore copy protection. The old Canopus ADVC-100 could be made to ignore copy protection but only on some "revisions" ... the new Canopus ADVC-110 cannot be made to ignore copy protection as far as I know.

If you want to capture MPEG-2 (the format DVD uses) then I suggest the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 which is an external box (like the units above) that has analog A/V inputs and connects to the computer using USB 2.0 and the box uses special hardware to convert your analog A/V to MPEG-2 format. It works really well and ignores copy protection.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[tonysolomon]

Thanks, everyone. I've checked out the products that you've described. I noticed that nobody mentioned a video capture card. Is that because the quality isn't as good.

Can I use different editing software, from my PC, on the DVDs made from a stand alone DVD recorder?

Also, I've spent so much on the computer that I'd like to keep the cost under $70. Any suggestions?

What do you guys think about this one:
http://pcworld.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=4267835/

It got good reviews from customers and the editors, alike, so I like that. However, I wonder about the MCE drivers only part (i.e. WINTV-PVR 150 MCE /WHITE BOX/ SYSTEM BLDRS - MCE 2005 DRIVER ONLY). Does that mean that it won't work on WinXP Pro?

I would like to get around copy protection, since it's so much easier to fast forward a DVD than a VHS. I have a lot of original movies. I don't want to edit those, but I do have a lot of vhs tapes that I need to edit. I want to take out commercials, mainly.

What do you guys think about Ebay?

[SatStorm]

For hunder of VHS tapes, I would use a TBC, a good VCR, a Canopus 55, virtualdub (editing), TMPGenc (encoding), TMPGenc Author (authoring).

An alteranative could be: A TBC, a good VCR, a Canopus 55, mainconcept 1.5, mpeg2vcr (editing), TMPGenc Author (authoring)

A third alternative combines a good VCR, a TBC, a DVD standalone recorder, mpeg2vcr, TMPGenc author

For 70$ I would go for a cheap bt8xx based card and start learning this hobby from scratch.

[jdizzy40]

You won't get what you want to do for $70.00. I can assure you of that. And how many weeks of free time do you have. I would allocate about 8 weeks. As already stated you will need some hardware not within your budget.

[suppafreak]

I concur with jdizzy40.

Assuming each tape is 2 hours. It will take that amount of time just to get the footage in to a PC. Then comes the editing time depends how extensive or not you want to edit, then the trascoding time (basically, converting AVI movie to DVD format). Just an example, at list for me, it takes about 2.5 to 3 hours to transcode 1 hour 30 min movie, and I have 3.2 MHz CPU with 2 GB of RAM and 300 GB hard drive. Just excluding the editing you are already looking at 5 hours of just capturing and transcoding. This is only if there are no other problems.

But not to discourage you, what you want to do is doable, but not for the money and time you want to.

P.S. I capture the VHS using the VCR connected to SIMA 2 video signal corrector, pass thru DV camera using fire wire and Sceanalizer software. Edit the footage in Adobe Premiere and make the DVD using DVDLab Pro, Then burn it using NERO. As you can see you don't really need video capture card.

[tonysolomon]

You won't get what you want to do for $70.00. I can assure you of that. And how many weeks of free time do you have. I would allocate about 8 weeks. As already stated you will need some hardware not within your budget.

I'm unemployed. I've got a lot of time, plus I'm not in a rush to get the tapes transferred; I've had them for years.

What about something like the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR150 or the Pinnacle Studio 500-PCI? I just need to input the video; I've got the software and soundcard. Are you saying that the quality won't be good enough from something that is inexpensive?

[tonysolomon]

I concur with jdizzy40.

P.S. I capture the VHS using the VCR connected to SIMA 2 video signal corrector,

As you can see you don't really need video capture card.

I'll definitely check the other items out, but that SIMA costs a little more than I'd like to spend. I think that a quality capture card might be in my price range. I'll keep searching. Suggestions will definitely be appreciated. Thanks.

[Leoslocks]

What about something like the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR150

I think the PVR 150 has some sound sync problems and or volume problems. It will take the signal from the VCR and capture to MPG2 format.

Check out the HTPC forums and the comments on the PVR 150.

Home Theater PC's

[davideck]

What about something like the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR150

I don't know about the PVR-150, but the PVR-250 works great for me! With that many tapes, I think you would quickly appreciate the real time encoding, and the picture quality is excellent.

I did find that a Frame Synchronizer (like a DataVideo TBC) was essential for preventing audio/video skew. It wasn't necessary for EVERY tape, but in order to get through hundreds of tapes you'll want a pretty foolproof process.

I wouldn't recommend this approach if you're planning on editing. As lordsmurf pointed out, it gets a bit tricky in the MPEG domain.

[ROF]

A device that defeats Macrovision is illegal to purchase in or import to New York.

[tonysolomon]

You might want to look at the Canopus ADVC-110 or the DataVideo DAC-100

They have analog A/V inputs and then the box connects to the computer using IEEE 1394 (aka FIREWIRE also aka i.link).

The DataVideo DAC-100 will ignore copy protection. The old Canopus ADVC-100 could be made to ignore copy protection but only on some "revisions" ... the new Canopus ADVC-110 cannot be made to ignore copy protection as far as I know.

If you want to capture MPEG-2 (the format DVD uses) then I suggest the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 which is an external box (like the units above) that has analog A/V inputs and connects to the computer using USB 2.0 and the box uses special hardware to convert your analog A/V to MPEG-2 format. It works really well and ignores copy protection.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I like the ignoring copy protection part, but won't certain software programs do that?

Also, isn't PCI going to be a lot faster than Firewire or USB 2.0?

I certainly appreciate the help, though.

[tonysolomon]

For hunder of VHS tapes, I would use a TBC, a good VCR, a Canopus 55, virtualdub (editing), TMPGenc (encoding), TMPGenc Author (authoring).

An alteranative could be: A TBC, a good VCR, a Canopus 55, mainconcept 1.5, mpeg2vcr (editing), TMPGenc Author (authoring)

A third alternative combines a good VCR, a TBC, a DVD standalone recorder, mpeg2vcr, TMPGenc author

For 70$ I would go for a cheap bt8xx based card and start learning this hobby from scratch.

The TBCs are like all of the other great ideas on this thread. I may give in and spend the extra money on one of these choices, but not until I'm sure that I can't get good quality from a cheaper product, first. Thanks, though. Which bt8xx card would you get if you were to get one?

[tonysolomon]

You won't get what you want to do for $70.00. I can assure you of that. And how many weeks of free time do you have. I would allocate about 8 weeks. As already stated you will need some hardware not within your budget.

What about under $100, because I've still got to get a decent VCR and I've just bought this new PC.

[tonysolomon]

A device that defeats Macrovision is illegal to purchase in or import to New York.

I don't live in New York. Nevermind, if you were just making a general statement.

I will probably use software for that purpose, though, if my hardware won't do it.

[tonysolomon]

[sic]the PVR-250 works great for me! With that many tapes, I think you would quickly appreciate the real time encoding, and the picture quality is excellent.

I did find that a Frame Synchronizer (like a DataVideo TBC) was essential for preventing audio/video skew. It wasn't necessary for EVERY tape, but in order to get through hundreds of tapes you'll want a pretty foolproof process.

I wouldn't recommend this approach if you're planning on editing. As lordsmurf pointed out, it gets a bit tricky in the MPEG domain.

Thanks, I like the product, but not the price. I wish they sold it without the software, then maybe it would be cheaper. I don't need trickiness in the MPEG domain, since I'll be a novice. Thanks, though. I'll keep my eye on that PVR-250.

[BrainStorm69]

If you want an inexpensive capture card that has worked well for me - try the AverMedia DVD EZMaker PCI. I saw it advertized last week at Fry's Electronics for $5 after rebate ($25-20 rebate)! It doesn't have any problems with MV, can capture using VirtualVCR (freeware) and HuffyUV codec (also free), and can capture directly to MPEG with the included software (although the bitrate choices are severely limited).

If you have a Fry's near you, it's worth trying.

[FulciLives]

I think the best bang for your buck will be the ADS Instant DVD 2.0

I've used the device although I decided to return mine. It actually worked really well ... the only reason I returned it was that it had very limited ability to schedule recordings for when you are away from the computer. If you look on pricegrabber.com you can find it for as low as roughly $100 + shipping.

I also bought and returned a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR 150 (not the MCE version ... the regular PCI version). It had a lot of really nice options for scheduled recordings and the MPEG video quality was good BUT it has some issues with audio and a problem with washing out bright areas (especially whites). Definately stay away from it!

The Hauppauge WinTV-PVR 250 is an older model and does not have the issues that the 150 model has. It can be found on-line for around $130 or so but the 150 was very "touchy" with VHS sources as tested by me and other people have said that the 250 is also touchy with VHS sources. In other words if the signal is not very stable the Hauppauge cards have trouble meaning you may need something like a Full Frame TBC which is about $200+

The ADS Instant DVD 2.0 had no VHS issues as tested by me but I only tried it with tapes that were in decent shape ... nothing too far gone (such as multi-gen tapes or poorly recorded SLP/EP speed tapes). It also definately ignores copy protection but so does the Hauppauge cards.

Keep in mind if you go the PC route you need the capture card/device ... you then need software (the best is not free) so a "minimum" set-up would be like this:

1.) ADS Instant DVD 2.0 = about $110 total with shipping
2.) VideoRedo for editing (best MPEG editor) = about $50
3.) DVD Authoring program (TMPGEnc DVD Author) = about $100

So that right there is about $260

However (as much as I think that is a good set-up) you can always look into getting a stand alone DVD recorder with a built-in HDD. You should be able to find a Pioneer DVR-531H-s or DVR-533H-s for around $300 and do everything with that one machine ... although DVD authoring will be somewhat limited it will be functional.

Here are some screen shots from a commercial (store bought) WideScreen VHS video of the movie ARMAGEDDON ... these pics are from a capture using the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 and are presented in the original capture size of 720x480 using as little JPG compression as possible.















I tried to copy this same VHS video using my Pioneer stand alone DVD recorder but it wouldn't let me due to copy protection LOL

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[thecoalman]

I will probably use software for that purpose, though, if my hardware won't do it.

There's very few software alternatives to defeat MV. Essentially your relegated to sub standard old drivers and/or third party drivers for a few cards that are capable of detecting MV The third part option seems to cuase more problems than they fix from the posts I've seen. If you have a device capable of detecting MV it has to removed before it gets to it.

Either purchase a device that doesn't see it, or get a TBC. If your going to be converting 100's of tapes get the TBC.

A device that defeats Macrovision is illegal to purchase in or import to New York.

B&H Photo Video located in New York city lists multiple devices that will defeat MV including eveyone listed above. Having a quick glance at the catalog they probably have every device ever mentioned on this site for getting around MV as well.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=...=datavideo+tbc

Switch the search to low to high if your interested in the consumer lines for Datavideo. BTW I do all my online shopping for electronics at that site. (besides computers) The service is excellent, prices are below or average.

[lordsmurf]

Thanks, I like the product, but not the price. I wish they sold it without the software, then maybe it would be cheaper. I don't need trickiness in the MPEG domain, since I'll be a novice.

You're not really paying for software. You're paying for the hardware. The included software these days rarely affects price more than a couple dollars ($5 at most) on some of these consumer goods.

Video cards can cost anywhere from $25 to $25,000 or more.
A majority of them are in the $100-1000 range.

Have to have a bit of perspective about these things.

Not to mention certain cards come with software that you're supposed to be using to get optimal quality, it was software made by the hardware company SPECIFICALLY for the hardware device in use. You cannot use third-party software for all cards, and most of that third-party stuff is crap anyway (Pinnacle Studio, WinDVR, PowerVCR, etc).

Your budget of $70 for video is like having a budget of $900 for an automobile. You won't get very far.

[Baatfam]

Your budget of $70 for video is like having a budget of $900 for an automobile. You won't get very far.

True LS! But as long as you don't expect much, it can be done.
I made my first VHS/DVD converstion with the AverMedia cheap card...was about $30 when I got it. (I still use it.)
I took the cheap JVC out of the living room.
Used Virtual VCR to capture, (free).
Edit with VDub, (free).
The AverMedia card came with Roxio which I used to encode, author and burn the DVD.
As long as I had a decent tape for a source the output was acceptable.

So it CAN be done, tonysolomon

BTW, at this time I'm still learning to use Avisynth w/TMPGEnc Plus and DVDLab. And I've replaced the old VCR with a JVC HR-S9800, but I'm still using the AverMedia card.

Later,
Bob T.

[tonysolomon]

@brainstorm69, thank you. That one is at the top of my list, but I don't see it on Fry's website. However, it is $20 on Froogle, so I'm going to check out the customer reviews.

@FulciLives, thank you. The Hauppauge is off of my list and I will research the ADS Instant DVD 2.0. In regards to the picture of the earth, is that what I should expect for around $100?

@thecoalman, I see what you're saying about the hardware vs. software, and I'll definitely keep that in mind. I'll also keep looking for a TBC in my price range. Would a TBC give me a picture that is better than the picture of the earth(see FulciLives' post)? Thanks.

@lordsmurf, I hear you and thanks. I didn't know that pinnacle was crap software. Is there any third-party software that isn't crap, since the software included with most cards is generally stripped down(at least the cards that I can afford, right now)?

@Baatfam, cheers.

@everyone who responded. Thank you for your opinions and insight. You're helping me make a more informed decision.

[thecoalman]

@thecoalman, I see what you're saying about the hardware vs. software, and I'll definitely keep that in mind. I'll also keep looking for a TBC in my price range. Would a TBC give me a picture that is better than the picture of the earth(see FulciLives' post)? Thanks.
.

No sense reinventing the wheel for that question....

nothing is wrong with the standalone tbc you own. Those things are overrated crap. They do next nothing in terms of truly correcting picture quality.

Tape players (VTRs, VCRs, camcorders, etc.) use mechanical parts to move and read the tape. You have rollers, tensioners, a spinning helical head, gears, pulleys, etc. All are subject to slop. If there was no slop, they wouldn't be able to assemble them.

They are also subject to distorting the signal because, for example, tapes are made of mylar, which is a plastic, and will stretch. In order for the helical head to read the magnetic imprint on the tape, it must be in intimate contact with it. That means pulling the tape tightly across the head. That also means the tape will stretch slightly. Add mechanical slop of the other parts into the equation and you have a range of pressures that the tape may be applying to the head as it's stretched. Since the head won't distort, the tape must.

You also have long-term changes in tape speed across the head, called Wow. You have short-term speed variations called Flutter. You have alignment and tape registration changes with different tape brands, and they are compounded by mechanical wear.

Plus you have the usual problems like tape head magnetization after a while, and oxide buildup on the heads.

Add up all the ways a signal can be degraded, and it seems amazing that it works at all.

The effect these variables have on the signal is not only poorer video quality itself, but timing errors. Each horizontal scan read from the tape is ideally a precise time value in length, and these should fall precisely the same distance, timewise, from the previous scans, and the ones to come.

Each group of hoirizontal scans makes up a field. Two fields make up a frame. Again, the timing between fields, and between frames, should be exact.

But, we've seen from the issues above that they are not.

So what does that mean to the viewed picture? A TV set is very forgiving in matters of timing. There is an amount of "slop" built into the design. But vary the timing too much and you get a horizontal or vertical hold problem. Generally they do a good job ...with precisely timed broadcast signals.

On older sets that had a manual knob to adjust these, it was more noticeable than it is today with automatic locking circuits.

But capture from a tape, author to DVD, and play it back, and now you're feeding a signal to the TV that is timed poorly, analog-wise. But you've locked it in by authoring and when it gets to the TV, it can't correct it because by that point, it's timed beautifully again. But the actual material has changed.

The result? Vertical edges in the picture are no longer straight (horizontal scan timing issues). You also have color shifting (field and frame timing issues). These are just two examples of picture quality problems. Throw in dropped frames in the capture device, and now you have audio/video sync issues as well. Remember that non-linear editing is not forgiving, like analog television is.

Add in actual tape damage (curl, excessive stretch, etc.) and you have a horrible quality signal that is almost guaranteed to cause problems in that non-forgiving digital world

Enter the TBC. As the signal enters a full-frame TBC/Frame Synchronizer like the TBC-1000, the video information is digitized and stored in a buffer memory, one field at a time until an entire frame is stored. The timing information is discarded. Then the TBC replaces each and every horizontal line timing with its own. The timing information is determined by the length of the "retrace" area of the signal. This is also where the color information resides. It's the part of the signal you don't see on the screen.

The TBC also takes each completed field and does the same with the vertical "retrace" portion. This is where the vertical timing is stored, and is also where Macrovision pulses appear in the original source material. Line TBCs, like those found in camcorders and VCRs, do nothing to help vertical timing ...only horizontal.

The TBC then passes the clean, precisely-timed signal through a digital-to-analog converter and outputs it.

Without a TBC you wouldn't have a fighting chance of regularly capturing from various tape sources with any measure of success. If the sync issues didn't eat your lunch, the color shifts and raggedy vertical lines in the picture would ..assuming the signal wasn't MV-protected. If it was, you'd need to rely on a signal-degrading filter, such as a "corrector" or "Stabilizer" which do nothing to correct timing ...they just notch out the MV signal, and usually some of the legitimate signal as well :P

So ...a TBC is just "overrated crap"? I won't even comment on that remark.

[FulciLives]

@FulciLives, thank you. The Hauppauge is off of my list and I will research the ADS Instant DVD 2.0. In regards to the picture of the earth, is that what I should expect for around $100?

You have to realize that there is only so much detail when it comes to a VHS video source. It is never going to look like a studio produced DVD video in quality.

The ARMAGEDDON images were done without a TBC so using a TBC might very well improve the picture quality in that you will get a more stable image with less issues such as the possibility of less color bleeding etc. and of course for MPEG encoding the more stable the image the easier it is to encode so less MPEG artifacts (although that capture was done at 15,000kbps CBR so there really shouldn't be any MPEG artifacts visible).

Another thought ... the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 has two different settings for "video noise" reduction. I think the ARMAGEDDON capture was done at the default settings. You could lower the settings for more detail ... but also more video noise.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I tried to capture the same ARMAGEDDON VHS with the same VCR and cables to a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR 150 and although that capture solution ignores copy protection the image was not stable enough for the Hauppauge (which is touchy with such sources) and recorded a horrible signal. This ARMAGEDDON VHS was bought second hand used and did show some wear and tear here and there so it wasn't as prestine as a VHS tape could hope to be.

[BrainStorm69]

@brainstorm69, thank you. That one is at the top of my list, but I don't see it on Fry's website. However, it is $20 on Froogle, so I'm going to check out the customer reviews.

Try this Outpost.com link (I think they changed the name a little, but this is the card):

http://shop4.outpost.com/product/3446523?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

EDIT: Don't confuse it with the AverMedia DVD EZMaker 1394 PCI, which is a firewire only card

[tonysolomon]

You have to realize that there is only so much detail when it comes to a VHS video source. It is never going to look like a studio produced DVD video in quality.

I understand. I thank you for going throught the trouble of your posts. It is greatly appreciated. I didn't mean anything negative, just making an observation. I like the picture quality and would be satisfied with that for the money. I understand, also, that you could have tweaked the capture device more and that the tape wasn't the best quality. Thanks, again, for your efforts.

-------------
@thecoalman, now, I see how the TBC is better. I'm sorry about the ignorant question. Thanks for the descriptive explanation. It's more than an expensive alternative, now.

-------------
Okay, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to buy a TBC, when I can afford one.

Although, I actually have a video clarifier, from Clearline Concepts, that I've been using when recording from VCR to VCR. I got mine through an electronics magazine about 11 years ago, but Radio Shack sold them a few years back, before they were forced to stop selling them. The only caveats is that it runs on AA batteries, and I don't think it works on DVDs with MV protection. I've been wanting to make or buy some kind of device that can make it run from an electrical outlet. I wonder how much better the quality will be if I use this along with a video capture card.

Does anyone think that it will make a difference?