Canopus ADVC 100 or 110?

[Theresa]

Hello all--
I am still in the process of buying the things I need for transferring VHS to DVD. I was set to buy a Canopus ADVC 100, but I see it's been discontinued, though I can easily still find one to buy. I see the 110 talked about quite a bit. What I have read here so far sounds like there really isn't an advantage to the 110. But I thought I'd ask. What do you think?
Thanks

[redwudz]

I believe the 110 is powered from the computer and the 100, like I have, has a plug in power supply. Some of the 100s have a Macrovision remover. Never seemed to work on mine.

If you can find a ADVC-100 for cheap with a PS, go for it. AFAIK, both models work the same way.

[Theresa]

Thanks so much! I can proceed as planned!

[jimmalenko]

I seem to recall that the 110 is actually slightly worse than the 100 - I can't remember what, but there's one feature that the 110 doesn't have that the 100 does. It could be Macrovision removal, I don't know. Apart from that and the power supply thing, I'm led to believe that they're identical.

[Theresa]

I was reading somewhere else here that the older 100's did have the macrovision removal feature, but the later ones don't. I have been finding the 100's & the 110's for about the same price, so I just have been sifting around to see what to do. I knew the group here would know. Thanks for replying!

[jimmalenko]

I remember you now !

[budz]

I also have a ADVC-100 but the macrovision thingy never worked for me. Units are the same afaik. I haven't used mine in ages since I bought a PIONEER 220-S standalone dvd recorder.

[daniel_beller]

Hi,

I use the ADVC 300. It does everything I need. It's more expensive, but gives you pro results. It has TBC integrated and gives perfect captures (A/V in perfect lock, no lost frames, vibrant image, etc.)
I use it for archival purposes, using masters that origin from different sources - sometimes old masters from TV stations, U-matic backups or dubs from earlier formats, and I am able to tweak the settings as to have perfect results every time.
I think that this is the best choice, even if more expensive. If you want to make pro quality DVD's, don't go the cheap way, as you'll expend more time tweaking and re-synching than enjoying your movies.
One more thing: for capturing AVI files larger than 4Gb, format you partition to NTFS. Use always premium wiring, a good VHS machine and if possible, a separate drive for captures (a 200 Gb SATA 7200 rpm, WD, is fine).
Canopus are excellent and I am very pleased with them.


Hope this helps.

Daniel Beller

[thecoalman]

Macrovision issues aside they are practically identical, the 110 doesn't require an external power supply if you intend on hooking it up to a 6 pin firewire port on your computer. Nice feature, one less wire.

I'm pretty sure the dip switches on the back vary slightly too. Here's what the 110 has. If I remeber correctly the 100 has only 5 switches, and the operation of swicth # 5 here is different.

[Theresa]

Yes, jimmalanko, I'm the one you so gave so much good advice to---I've got it all printed out and waiting for when I get this going. My motherboard died and I'm waiting to get new parts, rebuild, and get going. Thanks again for all your help!
Thanks also, budz, Daniel and coalman for your input. There is no way I could have attempted this project without the collective brains and experience of everyone here.
When I totally screw this up, I'll be back, begging for help! Stick around!!
Theresa

[harley2ride]

Suggest that you also look at the DAC-100 and the ADS Pyro AV/Link. Both bypass Macrovision just fine, cost less than the Canopus, and do the same thing. The ADS AV/Link is highly recommended at www.videoguys.com as a semi-professional solution, and costs only $160.00, including Adobe Premiere Elements

[Theresa]

Thanks, Rob. I'll check them out. Whew, there's alot to learn!!

[edDV]

FYI: Here are the switches on the ADVC-100

[edDV]

Suggest that you also look at the DAC-100 and the ADS Pyro AV/Link. Both bypass Macrovision just fine, cost less than the Canopus, and do the same thing. The ADS AV/Link is highly recommended at www.videoguys.com as a semi-professional solution, and costs only $160.00, including Adobe Premiere Elements

IMO, the two critical advantages the ADVC-100/110 are:

1. Synced (locked) audio
2. NTSC 0.0 vs. 7.5 IRE setup scaling.

The latter feature allows NTSC with 7.5 IRE setup to be captured to DVD standard 16-235 digital levels. This saves hours of reprocessing black levels in software.

The 0.0 setting allows the ADVC to capture the same way a DV camcorder would (Analog Pass-Thru mode) with analog 0.0 IRE mapped to 16 and 100 IRE mapped to 235. With this setting 7.5 IRE black gets mapped to level 32 (dark gray).

Do the DAC-100 and the ADS Pyro AV/Link include these two critical features?

[FulciLives]

I say go for the DataVideo DAC-100

It is cheaper than the Canopus ADVC-100/110

It is also almost exactly a clone of the Canopus ADVC-100 but it has been noted to produce slightly different results that has been "pinned down" to a different non-Canopus DV codec used internally. Otherwise it works and has all the same features of the Canopus ADVC-100 including the IRE settings.

Those who have used both indicate that the DataVideo DAC-100 produces a more accurate image from the original whereas the ADVC-100 seems to oversaturate colors (especially red).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[GreyDeath]

I have bought and used both the DAC-100 and ADVC-100, but contrary to what Fulci says, IMO, the ADVC still has a better, even with the slightly saturated picture.

My DAC-100 had a "weird" offset pixiation when blue lights were onscreen that weren't captured on the ADVC-100. Mind you, it was a very slight offset, but it bugged me enough to go back to the Canopus. Using Vegas, i easily compensate for the oversaturation.

If you plan on recording old crappy VHS tapes, either would be very good, IMO. The differences between the 2 will be unnoticable with tapes.

[edDV]

Those who have used both indicate that the DataVideo DAC-100 produces a more accurate image from the original whereas the ADVC-100 seems to oversaturate colors (especially red).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Do you have any references for this? My own tests with the ADVC-100 show standard SMPTE color bars land dead center on the vector scope. Luminance and chroma ramps show linear response. I haven't tested or used the other boxes.

This isn't rocket science, you just need a calibrated test signal generator and a calibrated waveform monitor and vectorscope.

[FulciLives]

Those who have used both indicate that the DataVideo DAC-100 produces a more accurate image from the original whereas the ADVC-100 seems to oversaturate colors (especially red).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Do you have any references for this? My own tests with the ADVC-100 show standard SMPTE color bars land dead center on the vector scope. Luminance and chroma ramps show linear resonse. I haven't tested or used the other boxes.

This isn't rocket science, you just need a calibrated test signal generator and a calibrated waveform monitor and vectorscope.

I own neither the DataVideo DAC-100 nor the Canopus ADVC-100/110

I am merely bringing up comments I have heard time and again on these forums. Comments made by those who actually own the devices.

As for my personal experience I have used PCI type capture cards (using PICVideo MJPEG and/or HuffyUV) and now a stand alone DVD recorder. I intend to buy a DataVideo DAC-100 for "special" projects. The stand alone DVD recorder doesn't give me the level of control I desire ... but for recording from TV (I record a lot of stuff since I work 3:30pm to Midnight thus missing "prime-time tv") it is a godsend in that everything can be done so quickly.

For me the purchase of the DataVideo DAC-100 will be to get back to basics ala what I did with the PCI type capture card only I hope to never ever suffer A/V sync issues with the DAC-100 ... something that can't always be done with a PCI type catpure card since no one ever wants to build in audio capture ... which must be done by the seperate audio card ... introducing sync issues. I'm talking about your old-school non-hardware PCI cards like the BT based or Philips based cards without hardware MPEG.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[GreyDeath]

edDV: I used to have a comparison from when I was transferring the SW:OT, but unfortunately, I can't find the jpg that I posted so long ago, in a galaxy far, far away... *err, ahem*

Scopes and Numbers don't really mean that much to me, I use observation and I've found that in archiving, it's more Art than Science.

For Fulci, The only capture problem that I've had with the ADVC-100 was dropping frames because of a screwed up Timecodes on tapes. It also caused minor audio clicks when going from one recorded, edited segment to another. The TBC-1000 cleared both issues up nicely.

[harley2ride]

Suggest that you also look at the DAC-100 and the ADS Pyro AV/Link. Both bypass Macrovision just fine, cost less than the Canopus, and do the same thing. The ADS AV/Link is highly recommended at www.videoguys.com as a semi-professional solution, and costs only $160.00, including Adobe Premiere Elements

IMO, the two critical advantages the ADVC-100/110 are:

1. Synced (locked) audio
2. NTSC 0.0 vs. 7.5 IRE setup scaling.

The latter feature allows NTSC with 7.5 IRE setup to be captured to DVD standard 16-235 digital levels. This saves hours of reprocessing black levels in software.

The 0.0 setting allows the ADVC to capture the same way a DV camcorder would (Analog Pass-Thru mode) with analog 0.0 IRE mapped to 16 and 100 IRE mapped to 235. With this setting 7.5 IRE black gets mapped to level 32 (dark gray).

Not sure about the NTSC, but the sync locked audio is definately a feature of the ADS Pyro AV/Link. I have used mine for about 1 1/2 yrs now, and made personal DVD copies of my VHS Disney tapes, and transferred video from my Panasonic PVGS70 to my PC using the ADS and the results are fantastic. (Normally I just use my dedicated firewire card to transfer my DV video directly to the HD). Take a look at www videoguys.com. They highly recommend the ADS Pyro AV/Link.

Do the DAC-100 and the ADS Pyro AV/Link include these two critical features?

[edDV]

edDV: I used to have a comparison from when I was transferring the SW:OT, but unfortunately, I can't find the jpg that I posted so long ago, in a galaxy far, far away... *err, ahem*

Scopes and Numbers don't really mean that much to me, I use observation and I've found that in archiving, it's more Art than Science.

Well you either believe in scientific measurement or you don't. If you don't there would be no reason to believe a box built in November wouldn't look different from one built in July.

To test these boxes, one needs to minimize all other variables and just test the box input to output. Video test measurements are standardized and pretty much define the performance of the device. Gain, frequency response or linearity issues can be quickly determined.

[WishMaker]

About the macrovision bypass. I don't know where I got the following, but I follow it to the letter and it still works for me. Mind you, my ADVC-100 is a couple of years old, but here's word-for-word on how this person does it. (Before using this method, one of the tapes I was having problems with had said at the beginning it was macrovisioned and repeatedly displayed the few seconds of clear picture then dark and barely there picture etc.) Here's what steps he/she described for using the ADVC-100:

"I don't know which of the following steps are really necessary, but I do the following when getting ready to capture.

Start with the ADVC-100 and the analog device off.

Check that everything is cabled correctly and has power.

Turn on the analog device that will send to the ADVC, so that the ADVC has some kind of incoming signal.

Turn on the ADVC and set it to Analog IN (hold down the button a few seconds when doing so to remove macrovision)

Resart windows.

Do something else for a few minutes while windows finds the ADVC.

Start the program that will talk to the ADVC and hope it recognizes it.

If this doesn't work, repeat the last step or go back to the restart windows step and repeat from there."

[harley2ride]

That sounds like a lot of work, when my ADS Pyro does all that automatically, and I don't have to worry about the black levels either.. I agree that the canopus is a good product, but I can't see paying over $100.00 more for a product that really doesn't have any features that the ADS PYRO AV/Link doesn't. If I was going to spend the money for a canopus, I would rather watch ebay for a Canopus DV REX or Canopus Edius for around the same price..

[nelson133]

I have used the canopus 100 box for over 2 years and have been pleased with the results. Being a hobbist, I have tried a number of other products, but always go back to the canopus. the only time that i have had to use the full procedurs mentioned above is the result of a major computer foul-up/crash, generally, just holding down the button for 20+ seconds ( I count fast ) does the trick. If you don't cut the power to the box, the macrovision protection should stay on, even if the computer cycles on and off.
I am really tired of the same "experts" i.e. Fucilives, Lord Smurf, et al who seem to have an unreasoning hatred of this product. as they come up with the same ridiculous negative comments, even though they have never used it. Take it from someone who has actually used it, it works with superior results and it doesn't require constant driver updates, a tbc, or other such extras.
Read the dozens of positive comments from posted on this site from those who HAVE ACTUALLY USED THE PRODUCT.
The DAC100 has its own problems, especially with black and white video. Nyah Levi

[vhelp]

Sorry for this long post ...

It is my belief that the talked about "oversaturated" red colors is
a misunderstanding, and is based on older discussions which were
not accurate/conclusive, IMHO.

I'm with edDV here on this saturation issue. This problem is (was)
mainly on account of the user's imporper IRE setup with their given
source medium.

For instance, if source medium is:

** Laserdisc / VCR - set IRE to 0.0 (or 7.5, depending on the source
pre-record process)

** Cable / Satellite - set IRE to 0.0 (don't use 7.5 or else you will
get high saturations, from channel to channel, source content to
source content)

** DVD player - set IRE to 0.0 (don't use 7.5 or else you will
get high saturations)

Setting the IRE to 7.5 has its faults. And, improper settings (lack
of knowledge of source type) will exagerate the chroma issues discussed
below.

I've said this before.. the ADVC-100 is the Holy Grail of any capture
card out there. Simply because it is the only device I have ever seen
capture CLEAN pictures, every time. No blastic line noise, or any noise
to been seen, ever. Audio. That is another story. To date, I have
never run into any trouble with audio. No sync issues.. and no
distorition or noise, or whatever.

Everything is just plain perfect, IMHO. But..

You have to remember something important, when it comes to DV.

There is a known chroma issue with this video format. But, the issue
is minimal, and is based on the *poor* source to begin with. The other
side to the chroma issue with dv (at least from the advc-100 device)
is the sources format, and how one processes it. Most users user a
scripting language (avisynth) to process their sources.. and that
includes sources from the advc-100 device. IMHO, I believe that the
majority of the chroma (often refered to as 411 bug) is exagerated
by improper filter usage.. though I won't get into that here.

Yet another dv chroma issue factor, has to do with the device that you
are capturing from and how much (or type of) Filtering it incorporates
in its final output.. to your ADVC-100 device.

And, the last final problem regarding dv 's chroma issue (again, IMHO)
is with the sources format. For instance.. is the source's origion
based on an MPEG-1 vs. MPEG-2 sampling format. Or, worse, if the
source being captured was already processed with poor editing which
included improper sampling.. hence, when captured, will either,
enhance or exagerate the dv 's chroma issues further.
I have been testing this chroma issue over time, when time allows.

But I have not completed my findings as yet. But, from what I have
found in my ongoing research is this.. certain red color's seem
to almost turn on this chroma issue. Well, its not in the best
phrase or words, but.. IMHO, the chroma issue's strength is dependant
upon the *sources* luma/chroma sample layout. More tests will have to
be done here too. Anyways.

All this chroma issues have compounded soo deeply, that it has gone
to the point of no return. In other words (IOW) DV got a bad rap.

IMHO, it has been proven that DV (the format) can produce undisturbed
chroma. But, in order for this to happen properly, the *source*
must be proper to begin with. Until then, chroma issues will always
be with us Perhaps, at a later date, some proper investigation
and tests can be done here to prove otherwise. Until then..

Personaly, I would go with the ADVC-100 [and not the DAC-100] but that
is my *biased* opinion. And, IMHO, the ADVC-100 (there were several
revisions made to this model, and I have one of the good ones) may
yield slightly better performance. I believe that some users that are
having slight problems on certain source materails are on account of
these *model revisions* ..though I can't prove it.. to date, I have
never experienced any problems with my VHS sources. And, my VHS collection
runs back to the early 90's. some tapes have drop-outs, blank-spots,
and a few other serious glitchs that would drive certain capture cards
crazy. My ADVC-100 has proven perfect captures (issue'less captures)
to this date.

Regarding Macrovision and the ADVC-100 device ...

The preventitive step was not properly clear:

** 1 - After the mode is selected to Analog, and wait a second.
** 2 - you press and hold down the silver button for 15 seconds.
** 3 - then release it.
** 4 - if you find you are in Digital mode, press button again to Analog.
** 5 - MV should now be disabled.. until you power off the unit.

Personally, and bias included, I would go with the ADVC-100, if you can
find one. E-Bay should have them. If you want the optimum/sweet-spot
one, like the one I have, look for (or make request about) the S/N
starting with 74xxxx. If memory serves me, there were three
or four revisions (generation) models made, and only two rev. were
proven issue'less. This was all discussed and documented on Canopus
website, in the forums, when Macrovision was not taken as serious as
it is today. I registered there when I first got my unit. But, that was
years ago, and those discussions may have been removed since.

-vhelp 3622

[edDV]

Sorry for this long post ...

It is my belief that the talked about "oversaturated" red colors is
a misunderstanding, and is based on older discussions which were
not accurate/conclusive, IMHO.

I'm with edDV here on this saturation issue. This problem is (was)
mainly on account of the user's imporper IRE setup with their given
source medium.

For instance, if source medium is:

** Laserdisc / VCR - set IRE to 0.0 (or 7.5, depending on the source
pre-record process)

** Cable / Satellite - set IRE to 0.0 (don't use 7.5 or else you will
get high saturations, from channel to channel, source content to
source content)

** DVD player - set IRE to 0.0 (don't use 7.5 or else you will
get high saturations)

Setting the IRE to 7.5 has its faults. And, improper settings (lack
of knowledge of source type) will exagerate the chroma issues discussed
below.

Oh man this will take time, but no.

NTSC laserdisc, VCR, composite and S-Video from cable/satellite boxes all should be set to 7.5 IRE and the luminance mapping will be to 16-235 and Cr, Cb chroma mapping will follow DV/DVD (CCIR-601) levels.

I'm starting to think what is going on here is certain software is transcoding to 0-255 RGB without compensating properly for 16-235 luminance levels.

I know that proper levels are maintained for the old Abobe Premiere 5.x-6.x, also Premiere Pro, also Vegas and ULead products. The video flows through with YUV-RGB color space conversions to the DVD at proper levels as captured. There is no problem when those programs are used.

Something is going wrong in the process when CCIR-601 level captures are being converted to 0-255 RGB in some of these programs used here. The capture device isn't at fault. It is doing its job as designed. Something is wrong in the capture-edit-encode process if you are getting saturated chroma. My suspicion going in is this isn't about chroma. I think the problem is with luminance levels.

[Wile_E]

I have the ADVC-300. It bypasses Macrovision too, but first you need to upgrade the firmware if it doesn't have the latest. What I've noticed is that the default settings in the "Picture controller software" makes the whites go up to about 105-107 IRE. Even with Auto-Gain off. So I have to manually adjust the level down.

I think Canopus does this on purpose with their hardware and software encoder, to make things look more contrasty and "better" to most people. There is a thread here, comparing their encoder to others. It has the same contrast problem, making whites whiter and out-of-range. That is why I bought CCE Basic encoder instead. I don't like something messing around with my video behind my back. If I want more contrasty whites, then I will manually do it myself. Canopus, being a Japanese company, must not know anything about NTSC, or this was a whole design decision on purpose.

But...I do like my ADVC as it gives great captures, after I adjust all settings. Never had drop frames when using WinDV and audio is always locked tight.

[vhelp]

>> I'm starting to think what is going on here is certain software is
>> transcoding to 0-255 RGB without compensating properly for 16-235
>> luminance levels.

I'd like to test this out. But, finding the right software for the test
is not easy. I thought about what you responded back, and *maybe* just
*maybe* I might beleive you, but only if I can re-proproduce the color
information from the captured images, using the proper color conversion
formulas in tool I could quickly conjor up for this. But, so far, in
every capture setup I have performed, the reverse is true (for me, and
my given setup) In any case..

Perhaps starting another topic would be beneficial for such tests
..what-ta-ya say ??

-vhelp 3623

[edDV]

...

You have to remember something important, when it comes to DV.

There is a known chroma issue with this video format. But, the issue
is minimal, and is based on the *poor* source to begin with. The other
side to the chroma issue with dv (at least from the advc-100 device)
is the sources format, and how one processes it. Most users user a
scripting language (avisynth) to process their sources.. and that
includes sources from the advc-100 device. IMHO, I believe that the
majority of the chroma (often refered to as 411 bug) is exagerated
by improper filter usage.. though I won't get into that here.

...

Lets separate all of this. It has nothing to do with levels (e.g. saturated chroma). The only "411 bug" that has been discussed so far relates to raster spatial issues (chroma edge quality) not levels. Lets find a way to discuss unrelated issues separately.

Chroma spatial resolution is a tradeoff with luminance macroblocks and other compression issues given a bitrate. It isn't related to levels. I have heard nobody try to argue 4:1:1 sampling leads to errors in levels.

[WishMaker]

If you want the optimum/sweet-spot
one, like the one I have, look for (or make request about) the S/N
starting with 74xxxx. If memory serves me, there were three
or four revisions (generation) models made, and only two rev. were
proven issue'less.

Could be just a coincidence, that mine works fine too. The S/N is 77XXXX just in case someone goes looking for one on ebay or somewhere. Of course, mine might be an exception. Anyone know what the S/N range is on the ADVC-100?