Mac -> PC !! What CODEC?

[Popoi]

Help!

The company i work for has to figure out some kind of middle ground betwen us and an advertising company.

The Ad company makes all their DVD-quality ads on Macintoshes. But the hardware the clips need to run on are Windows XP Embedded based X86 machines. Right now they have served us some MPEG2 files, but we have been struggling to get these clips playing well! I've been experimenting with different codecs, but every one of them seem to have SOME kind of problem. If it's not interlacing, it's smoothness, or it's flicker or other artifacts. The Ad company hasn't been very helpful either - converting video seems to be outside their area of expertise. (go figure)


Anyway.. We're trying to find some codec or standard that they can use and view on a Mac - determine it looks ok - send it to us, and we can play it on our XP platform and it will look ok. Is there such a middle ground?

quality is key here, so lossless would be to prefer. Uncompressed even.

Thankful for any advice [/i]

[jimmalenko]

MPEG-2 should be fine, and use a software player that deinterlaces properly like PowerDVD.

[edDV]

MPeg2 and the DVD standard were developed to be platform independent.

If you can play a standard DVD and can't play these, then they are at fault.

[edDV]

quality is key here, so lossless would be to prefer. Uncompressed even.

Thankful for any advice [/i]

Huh? are we talking about a standard DVD or something else?

Have them send DVD spec MPeg2. If they have something at higher bitrate have them define what it is so we can tell you what hardware is needed to play it.

[Shadowmistress]

Actually, the dvd is your middleground. Have them create a video_ts folder with all the vobs and either get it to you by disk or by download. (By download it can be bigger and uncompressed.) Then you guys use dvd ripping software on your end to extract the clip. --Make sure they test their dvds first so that they know it plays without glitches.

Sounds plausible, right?

[Popoi]

Mpeg2 sounds good. But what codec could be used on their (Mac) end and our (PC Win XP) End to make the video look good?

They sent MPEG2 files but when i view them i get a combination of these issues, depending on what codec i'm using. We're using a Win32 Application that uses DirectShow, so we can control how to render the video.

- Mice Teeth (interlace problem)
- general choppiness - missed frames
- Last 20 frames or so slow down to a crawl, and i get 1 frame per 10 sec.
- 'rounded' corners of the video
- 5-10 px thick band of flicker (darkening) in the upper or lower part of the video


I've tried the following mpeg2 codecs:
- DScaler
- FFdshow
- Stinky's mpeg2 codec
- ULEAD
- GPL (worked best but froze at the end)


The solution we would want is to tell them: Here, use this codec N and create videos using X by Y resoultion, at B bitrate. They create it, it looks good to them (it's their livelyhood so they will take pride in making it look the best), then when we run it, we don't have to do anything in terms of converting or tweaking.

Possible?

(thanks for all the replies this far, by the way)

[Shadowmistress]

On a side note, are they sending you standard NTSC or PAL encodes (29.97 or 25 fps) or 23.987 with pulldown?

What audio codec are they using?
EDIT: AC3 or mp2?

[lordsmurf]

MPEG-2 is a format of video.
There is no "codec" involved. This is not an AVI or QT.

All you need is an MPEG-2 decoder to play them.
Editing MPEG is damned near impossible, for the record.

[Shadowmistress]

On second thought.... why don't you just ask them to convert it to mpeg1 instead of mpeg2? Universal compatibility, editing capable, but no interlace support. Do you care?

[edDV]

Mpeg2 sounds good. But what codec could be used on their (Mac) end and our (PC Win XP) End to make the video look good?

They sent MPEG2 files but when i view them i get a combination of these issues, depending on what codec i'm using. We're using a Win32 Application that uses DirectShow, so we can control how to render the video.

- Mice Teeth (interlace problem)
- general choppiness - missed frames
- Last 20 frames or so slow down to a crawl, and i get 1 frame per 10 sec.
- 'rounded' corners of the video
- 5-10 px thick band of flicker (darkening) in the upper or lower part of the video

Is this a high definition clip?

Suggest you first request a standard 480i DVD that will play in a standard DVD player. Best quality judgement is done from a well calibrated TV rather than a computer monitor. They could transfer the DVD iso file that you could burn locally.

That same DVD should play on your computer if you use a deinterlacing DVD player like PowerDVD or WinDVD. Choppiness indicates a slow computer or an inadequate display card. A mid level ATI Radeon or NVidea should do. The computer may also lack sufficient memory. 256-512MB should be enough.

If the file is high definition MPeg, try the VLC player and select "Mean" deinterlace. That will work best on a computer with limited resources.

[Popoi]

DVD discs won't do, since we don't have a DVD reader attached. Or do i misunderstand you? Our application is using direct show, so we will render the clips in software.


We're using a 20" LCD at 800x600x32 res by the way, I can post the rest of our hardware specs we're working with later (not at work atm) if that helps.

[edDV]

DVD discs won't do, since we don't have a DVD reader attached. Or do i misunderstand you? Our application is using direct show, so we will render the clips in software.


We're using a 20" LCD at 800x600x32 res by the way, I can post the rest of our hardware specs we're working with later (not at work atm) if that helps.

A DVD compatible MPeg2 file will also play in the players mentioned above. Direct Show does not play MPeg2 directly. You need a player (such as Windows Media Player) and a MPeg2 decoder installed. The players above will outperform Windows Media Player especially with interlace MPeg2 or DV files.

Are they preparing this file for something other than DVD release? Like a Kiosk? Or inside an application?

The LCD needs a deinterlaced input from the decoder. Use one of the players above. The playback quality will depend on the display card overlay settings.

[lordsmurf]

Seriously, you guys can't do this on your own. You need to hire somebody to help you, or pay the ad company more to help you do what you want. Most of the stuff we're saying is over your head. Video is not easy, and "knowing computers" doesn't help any.

[Shadowmistress]

I still say go with mpeg1.....

[jimmalenko]

How's about a GSpot of the MPEG-2 files they've already given you ?


We can debate the "best" format till the cows come home. What's say we attack this from another angle and try troubleshooting the current MPEG-2 files ?

[Popoi]

- Shadowmistress
I thought the MPEG-1 video standard limits you to 4MB/s bitrate and 352x240 pixels? I don't think we're going to be able to put out DVD-quality video with that.. am i wrong? What codec would you say they use, and we use to get the best match?

I like your idea of using the DVD disc as a middle ground, the only issue is that we really don't want to be the ones producing the final cut so to speak: we're a software/hardware house not art/advertising/subjective stuff. However i'd be curious to hear your opinion (or anyone elses for that matter) on DVD ripping software that can produce really high quality stuff (tried Amigo DVD ripper real quick and it kindof sucked)

-- EDIT: i guess we could just play the VOB file, huh? hmmmmmmm <ponders> this kinda brings up another question.. If we do decide on doing this, we'll still need an MPEG2 decoder.. is this going to be the same story? depending on how the DVD was created we will see different behavior from different clips?

I'll ask them on their encoding, my wager is NTSC. They have been producing these clips with audio (mp2), but we're going to ask them not to in the future since our system is speakerless.

- jimmalenko
I'm not sure exactly what you want, since Gspot doesn't support mpeg files -- all i get is MPEG2_VIDEO for video source, and MPEG2_AUDIO for audio source. I don't wanna discuss the best codec either, but i'd like to know ONE opinion on what codec using mpeg-2 would be a good common denominator for Mac and PC.

- edDV
DirectShow is Microsoft's library (part of DirectX) for rendering video in software. It allows you to connect source (mpeg files for instance), splitters, codecs (audio and video), and the renderer. So yes, directshow allows you to play MPEG2 (if you have the right codec), in fact, DirectShow is what Microsoft used to build Windows Media Player - and i'd bet my left knee that various other software mpeg2 players are too.

These are not HD quality, they are DVD quality. I think we have enough juice to run the videos, i think the choppiness comes from some problem with the video file itself(?). For example, we've run a 120 MB HD-quality clip and it's smooth as a baby's behind - don't see why these would be harder to play if they're lower bitrate...


- lordsmurf
We don't want to edit any videos. I know MPEG-2 is a standard, however there are codecs that adhere to the MPEG-2 part 2 standard - DVD quality video - that's what we're looking for.



Thanks, thus far, you guys!

[Popoi]

Here are our system specs:

HS-2609 Motherboard
Intel 82852GM Display Controller
Pentium 4 - 1.7 GHz
512 MB DDR ram (PC2100)
We use the LVDS panel interface
AUO 20" 800x600 LCD TV Panel ( A201SN02)

[edDV]

- edDV
DirectShow is Microsoft's library (part of DirectX) for rendering video in software. It allows you to connect source (mpeg files for instance), splitters, codecs (audio and video), and the renderer. So yes, directshow allows you to play MPEG2 (if you have the right codec), in fact, DirectShow is what Microsoft used to build Windows Media Player - and i'd bet my left knee that various other software mpeg2 players are too.

These are not HD quality, they are DVD quality. I think we have enough juice to run the videos, i think the choppiness comes from some problem with the video file itself(?). For example, we've run a 120 MB HD-quality clip and it's smooth as a baby's behind - don't see why these would be harder to play if they're lower bitrate...

So you aren't going to explain what you are trying to do? Let me try to help with multiple choice.

1. You are trying to review the work being done by your agency but can't play the MPeg2 file they email you. Since you don't have a DVD player and TV, a standard DVD is useless if they send you one or an iso that you can burn.

Therefore your basic problem is to figure out how to play a DVD MPeg2 on a P4 1.7 with Intel motherboard (basic office computer*) display support.

2. You are a developer and you are trying to integrate an agency supplied MPeg2 file into an application being written over Direct Show API.


It is useless to respond further until you clarify your problem. Windows XP (target machine) will not play MPeg2 out of the box using Direct Show or WMP. You need AN MPEG2 DECODER that is supplied separately from windows. As a developer you would need to license this decoder and build it into your application.

* The 82852GM is normally a laptop graphics chip. It has no MPeg hardware acceleration support.

[Popoi]

edDV
sorry for not being clear. That would be option 2.

2. You are a developer and you are trying to integrate an agency supplied MPeg2 file into an application being written over Direct Show API.
It is useless to respond further until you clarify your problem. Windows XP (target machine) will not play MPeg2 out of the box using Direct Show or WMP. You need AN MPEG2 DECODER that is supplied separately from windows. As a developer you would need to license this decoder and build it into your application.

Now that we got that squared away, and we're on the same page. Here's my problem:

Ad company that creates the video is a Macintosh house. Our hardware is running Windows XP with our software (using directshow) on it.

The problem is that the video content that they send us is not good quality. They convert their master tapes into MPEG2 (and we FTP them to us) they view them for quality - it looks good on THEIR end (using a Mac) - send it to us and the video quality is poor.

I've tried different codecs and i can't seem to find a good match.
- GPL MPEG2 codec works best, but it 'freezes up' on the last few frames giving me < 1 FPS.
- DShow worked ok, but i got horrid mice teeth artifacts.
- FFDShow skipped frames.
- stinkys mpeg2 codec didn't work at all.

so my question is this: Can i tell these guys: "Please give us MPEG2 files encoded using BlahBlahCodec at ThisnThat Bitrate and SuchandSuch resolution" and then when WE play it on XP it will look ok? Is it even possible.


As a side note:
Right now i'm seriously considering using the VOB file from the DVDs they distribute. however DirectShow crashes when i play the file.... (work in progress)

[edDV]

edDV
sorry for not being clear. That would be option 2.

2. You are a developer and you are trying to integrate an agency supplied MPeg2 file into an application being written over Direct Show API.
It is useless to respond further until you clarify your problem. Windows XP (target machine) will not play MPeg2 out of the box using Direct Show or WMP. You need AN MPEG2 DECODER that is supplied separately from windows. As a developer you would need to license this decoder and build it into your application.

Now that we got that squared away, and we're on the same page. Here's my problem:

Ad company that creates the video is a Macintosh house. Our hardware is running Windows XP with our software (using directshow) on it.

The problem is that the video content that they send us is not good quality. They convert their master tapes into MPEG2 (and we FTP them to us) they view them for quality - it looks good on THEIR end (using a Mac) - send it to us and the video quality is poor.

I've tried different codecs and i can't seem to find a good match.
- GPL MPEG2 codec works best, but it 'freezes up' on the last few frames giving me < 1 FPS.
- DShow worked ok, but i got horrid mice teeth artifacts.
- FFDShow skipped frames.
- stinkys mpeg2 codec didn't work at all.

so my question is this: Can i tell these guys: "Please give us MPEG2 files encoded using BlahBlahCodec at ThisnThat Bitrate and SuchandSuch resolution" and then when WE play it on XP it will look ok? Is it even possible.


As a side note:
Right now i'm seriously considering using the VOB file from the DVDs they distribute. however DirectShow crashes when i play the file.... (work in progress)

The more I read this the more I think you lack the means to display their MPeg2 file correctly. DVD quality MPeg2 is DVD quality MPeg2. Quality is not OS dependent. That is why I suggested you first evaluate the files on a DVD player to a TV. If the files look good there and not good on your computer, then you need to get your computer capable of DVD MPeg2 display (Alt 1 above).

These are the first steps before you can start bulding the application.

Now is the 1.7 GHz. P4 with 82852GM graphics controller your target machine? Or is this application being written for a general PC customer?

The MPeg2 file will need to be optimized depending on how it will be played. Usually if the computer LCD display is the target, a deinterlaced version of the file will be used and resolution reduced to play on generic graphics cards. You need to describe your application spec in great detail and then hire a video experienced consultant to optimize the video.

[Popoi]

with all due respect, I think you're incorrect - indirectly - Quality IS OS dependent. If OS A uses codec C1 to render a file, but on OS B using codec C1 you get (say) color errors. then i'd say quality is OS dependent.

anyway to answer your question, it is our target machine.

[edDV]

with all due respect, I think you're incorrect - indirectly - Quality IS OS dependent. If OS A uses codec C1 to render a file, but on OS B using codec C1 you get (say) color errors. then i'd say quality is OS dependent.

anyway to answer your question, it is our target machine.

OK let me suggest a test. We already know the machine is weak for full DVD spec MPeg2 playback.

Download the demo or buy PowerDVD or WinDVD (deinterlacing DVD Meg2 players) and test your target machine. Those players will evaluate the machine and then deinterlace MPeg2 for display on the LCD and then degrade playback to match the capability of the CPU and graphics controller. If these apps can't play the video then you need to re-evaluate using "DVD MPeg2 quality" on that target machine.

If you are going to be writing your own player, this is all you have to work with in hardware from the 82852 graphics controller.
http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/intel852gm/sb/CS-009063.htm?iid=graphics+852main&

2D Graphics Features

* 32 bpp True Color 2D Support
* 256-bit pattern fill and BLT Engine Performance
* Programmable 3-Color Transparent Cursor
* Color Space Conversion

* Video
o Dynamic Bob and Weave Support for Video Streams
o SyncLock* Display and TV-out encoders to video source
* Video Overlay
o Single High Quality Scalable Overlay
o Multiple Overlay Functionality Provided via Stretch Blitter
o 5-tap Horizontal, 3-tap Vertical Filtered Scaling
o Independent Gamma Correction
o Independent Brightness/Contrast/Saturation
o Independent Tint/Hue Support
o Destination Colorkeying
o Source Chromakeying

In other words the CPU has to carry the MPeg2 decoding load but you do have some hardware scaling and deinterlacing support if you must use an interlaced MPeg2 source..

[Cornucopia]

There's inherent/stored quality, and there's final/display/user experience quality.

They could give you a perfect quality clip in it's stored state, but if you don't have the horsepower or OS/Multimedia DLL's ducks in a row, you won't see it as is should. They are two different problems.

What edDV and others are saying is:
Rule out the stored quality issue by playing a standard DVD (burned by the Ad agency) on a standard DVD settop player connected to a standard TV.

Look good? OK.
Now you deal with the second issue.

*******
First-
A word on codecs/file formats:

An AVI is a generalized multimedia container file format that contains Video streams usually compressed in one of a variety of codec types (as well as compressed or uncompressed Audio streams).
An MPEG file is a specialized/standardized multimedia container file format that contains Video streams COMPRESSED IN ONLY MPEG type of compression (and Audio streams in only MPEGAudio type compression, as well as Private streams that may contain AC3 or DTS compressed audio streams or PCM uncompressed audio streams, and a few other things).

See the difference?

Also, to ensure standardization/compliancy, MPEG codecs are DECODER determinant. This means that you can make an encoder any way you want so long as it gives a standard decoder the expected high-quality output.

So there is NO NEED and indeed, NOT MUCH LIKELIHOOD of there being the same compressor type found on a MAC as there would be a decompressor found on a PC.

*********

What your Ad agency is probably working with AFA MPEG encoders is most likely Apple's "Compressor", which I personally would give a 7 or 8 on a scale of 1 to 10 (current version only).

You on the PC side would not only not be able to use "Compressor" (it's Mac-ONLY), but you aren't needing to encode or re-encode, so you don't need an encoder at all!
You will be needing an MPEG decoder. All MPEG2 decoders must be licensed (barring GNU/Opensource stuff).
The better/more common ones are:

• Intervideo/WinDVD
  Cyberlink/PowerDVD
  MainConcept (they have both decoders and encoders)
  Ligos
  Fraunhoeffer
  (older/hardware)Quadrant/Ravisent/Cinemaster

It seems to me that most of your problems deal with your computer's video subsystem, paricularly as regards interlacing or in (unassisted) decode speed given the current pipeline.

Try some of those suggestions and get back to us...

Scott

P.S. FYI, MPEG1 is maxed out at 1856kbps and 352x240(NTSC) if using "Constrained Parameters". If not using CPB, it can be easily up to 15Mbps and up to 4000x4000, depending upon which encoder you use.
The point is more about what will give your current system good quality and work within your DirectShow interface. It could be MPEG1, MPEG2, MPEG4, or Windows Media for that matter.

[edDV]

Cornucopia, thanks for jumping in. My goal as well as yours obviously was to take on Popoi's problem and generalize the response for the larger readership.

[Popoi]

OK things are clearing up...

First off, i think that the problem in quality is their conversion process to MPEG2, i have the some of the same behaviors on my workstation (P4 3.2Ghz, 1 GB ddr, Gef 6) at home.

I tried the Ligos codecs but i got nothing but a black screen. I then installed the InterVideo codecs and that worked great - I'm rendering the VOB file from a DVD disc right now ... crash issue resolved as well.

Now, if i could get these clips on a DVD disc, and they play well in your off-the-shelf DVD player what's to guarantee that it will play well on our system? nothing i guess, since it depends on what mpeg2 decoder is used?

Say we end up licensing the InterVideo codecs for instance - is there a possibility that we'll come across a DVD that doesn't play well due to the codecs? Then, by extension, if i buy a off-the-shelf DVD player for my entertainment system, is there a possibility that i come across a DVD that won't play well there either?

I guess that's what standards are for... but it seems to me that the MPEG2 Part 2 standard is not very strictly adhered to when people make codecs, no? Otherwise, why would an MPEG 2 video look perfect using one codec, and like crap with another?

You on the PC side would not only not be able to use "Compressor" (it's Mac-ONLY), but you aren't needing to encode or re-encode, so you don't need an encoder at all!
You will be needing an MPEG decoder. All MPEG2 decoders must be licensed (barring GNU/Opensource stuff).
...

Also, this is what i was looking for! thanks. I do understand the difference between an encoder and a decoder :P , but if something claims to be a CODEC it should be able to encode as well as decode - my assumption was that (and this might be fallacious) a video would have the best chances of looking great if it's decoded using the same encoder that was used making it. Then you have things like DIVX (mpeg4) that exists for Mac as well as PC, i thought maybe there's something like that i should look for.

anyway, I'm gonna look into the codecs you suggested Cornucopia, thanks again.

edit: by the way i was never concerned with the stored quality, these clips are made-for-broadcast and should be perfect. the issue i was trying to solve was how do someone make an mpeg2 video on a Mac that will look good on PC, and how do you control that process.

[edDV]

If an MPeg2 made on a Mac doesn't look good on a PC or DVD player, then Apple is in big time trouble.

Sorry, you are failing to see the big picture here.
Also understand and study the difference between a codec and the MPeg2 standard.

[jimmalenko]

- jimmalenko
I'm not sure exactly what you want, since Gspot doesn't support mpeg files -- all i get is MPEG2_VIDEO for video source, and MPEG2_AUDIO for audio source. I don't wanna discuss the best codec either, but i'd like to know ONE opinion on what codec using mpeg-2 would be a good common denominator for Mac and PC.

I actually wanted frame size & bitrate to get an idea of the quality we're talking about here.

To be honest, I think we've led you far enough. If you can't work it out from here, pay someone to do it for you.

[Popoi]

edDV, why are you being so abrasive? If i'm failing to see the "big picture" then please by all means school me - this is a forum for idea and knowledge exchange not for arrogance. I understand well the difference between the mpeg2 standard and a codec, if i have made a misstatement somewhere i beg you to highlight it so that i may learn.

Thanks for your time though

[edDV]

You stated your goal as DVD MPeg2 quality. That defines a tight specification as overviewed here and in more detailed sources.
https://www.videohelp.com/dvd

As Cornucopia stated, the standard leaves some latitude for encoding but the end file is a standard.

On the playback side, DVD players use hardware decoders and can play in high quality and be very cheap because of standardization and manufacturing volume. On the PC side, you need to equip your machine to play a DVD. It is not built into the hardware or XP software.

A software or hardware MPeg2 decoder is required. These must be licensed. Software only solutions require a fast CPU or downgraded playback quality managed by software. Hardware solutions are usually accessed via DirectX at the API function level (unless a custom driver) and the hardware decoding assists usually live on a medium to high level display card or other add-in hardware that your system is lacking.

[Cornucopia]

Popoi-

#1 You keep referring to "MPEG2 Part2". There is no such thing (at least in common professional encoder parlance).
There is:

MPEG1: including MPEG System Streams (muxed streams container),
MPEG1 Video streams (whether CPB or not), and MPEG1 Audio streams (Layers 1, 2 and 3).

MPEG2: including MPEG Program/Transport Streams (the MPEG2 successors to System streams), MPEG2 Video streams (of various Profiles and Levels, MP@ML being the most common), MPEG2 Audio streams (same as MPEG1, but with additional sample rates and bitrates), and private streams (wherein reside PCM/AC3/DTS audio, etc)

MPEG2.5: including new Audio streams--BC Multichannel and NBC Multichannel (aka AAC)

MPEG4 Part1: including MPEG4 Container and Program/Transport streams, MPEG4 Video streams (with many more levels and profiles, most well know is "SimpleProfile"), MPEG4 Audio streams (based on AAC, but also including speech codecs), as well as a number of other object type streams not all of which are yet implemented.

MPEG4 Part2: added more objects, and more Video profiles and levels. Most common/popular one was "Advanced Simple Profile"

...

eventually,
MPEG4 Part10: added notably "AVC" (aka JVT aka H.264) Video codec/profiles/levels

Maybe you're getting terms switched.

#2 Once again, unlike most AVI codecs, DV and MPEG codecs all have to follow a standardized DECODER MODEL. Even if the actual underlying code is different, it has to react the same way. IOW, once you've encoded a "high quality" bitstream, it should work the same with ALL decoders. This varies somewhat with additional post-processing possibilites, or with a non-standard/substandard PC infrastructure. But there's always a base case of compliancy, otherwise the decoder shouldn't even be considered compliant. Future improvements in processing/NR may imrove the decoding, but it shouldn't NOT WORK later on.

#3 If you got black screen on some codecs, it's probably because of a software or hardware conflict, not dependant on the playback content. You can always (and should) test this out with a standardized "Known Good" sample file.

#4 Yes, CODEC= Compressor/Decompressor, but that's passed into a generic term now. So while people here may talk of MPEG codecs, there are actually quite often separate encoders and decoders.

Scott