DVD Authoring always a problem

[revsykes]

I've been doing this on and off for about 2 years and I still haven't found a way to make DVD-authoring predictably.

I normally edit/render in Premiere, After Effects, or FCP and then author on the PC.

1. Render as DV NTSC AVI, export audio as WAV 16 bit, 48k or AC3 via Adobe media encoder.
2. Encode with TMPGenc, to .m2v, 6000 data rate and default settings.
3. Convert wav to AC3 using BeLight/BeSweet.
4. Author in one of the following: DVD-Lab, Encore, DVDMaestro.
5. Have also tried just importing WAV instead of AC3 to authoring in DVD-Lab.

I have tried a lot of different settings, configurations, too many to list. It's highly frustrating as I never seem to get reliable results, most often ending up with audio problems, warbled audio which seems to speed up and slow down during playback, sometimes accompanied by speed problems and lagging video as well.

I've read a ton of guides, followed different people's advice, to no avail. I have had more luck with DVDMaestro than DVD-Lab- I literally get only 30% good DVDs using DVD-Lab. Is there such thing as a combination that works?? I am not looking for a one-click solution, (although I am so sick of all this I would welcome it.) Just a reliable workflow that will turn out usable DVDs MOST all of the time. People tell me to just use DVDSP on the Mac, but I don't currently own a Mac and it seems like I should be able to accomplish this on the PC without too much trouble with all the software that is out there. Honestly, I don't see the use of any software that isn't at least capable of getting near-perfect results.

I'd greatly appreciate any advice anyone can give. I don't care what tools I have to use, I just want them to actually work.

I am using Windows XP SP1.

[Shadowmistress]

When you encode in tmpgenc, do you have the "Closed GOP's" box ticked?
You should.

[guns1inger]

Try using ffmpeggui to do you audio conversion, instead of Besweet.

I use Vegas to edit, After Effects or Vegas to create motion menu backgrounds, sound forge for audio editing, sound forge or Vegas for AC3 conversion, Photoshop for menus etc, CCE or Procoder to encode to mpeg, and DVD Lab to author. My outcomes are very predictable, and problems only arise due to poor planning, not poor assets, so the quality is always as good as it can be, it's just sometimes I go round the structure once or twice getting it to hang together.

Of all the software you have mentioned, I would nominate besweet as the weakest point. If you have Adobe Media Encoder for AC3, why would you use it. Encore would be the next weak point, but again, you have alternatives.

Do you test your DVDs BEFORE you burn ?
If so, do you see these problems then ?
If not, are you insane ?

If you do test, and don't see these problems before burning, then what do you burn with ?
What media do you use ?
Do these problems happen in different players ?
Why haven't you upgraded XP to SP2 ?

I suspect there is more detail in your process than you are sharing with us. A solid process always leads to predictable results, and if it doesn't, at least makes it much easier to pin point what has changed and caused it to go wrong.

[jtoolman2000]

Your process is SOOO involved!!!

Here's what I do for most of my projects.

Camera footage to PC via Vegas Capture.

Edit

Output to Mepg2 wuth Vegas Main Concept encoder using standard DVD NTSC 720x480 template. I don't even look at the actual settings.

Load resulting MPG2 into ANY authoring program. I like Adobe Encore 1.5 or Architec 3.c and TDA

Create menus, chapters, links, menu background music, motion background for menus and the like.

If your authroing prog allows previewing thenn,,, TEST!!!!!!!!!!!

Compile to either ISO or DVD volumes ( AUDIO_TS + VIDEO_TS ).

Burn ISOs with DVD Decrypter or DVD vlumes in Neroi Burning Rom using DVD/Movie mode, draggin the files inside the VIDEO_TS Nero makes.

Use only top quality media Taiyo Yuden (Real ones)

Scan disk for read errors

Play and enjoy!

I have never encountered a need to reencode conver or whatever , my audio streams.

All in in synch and not audio distortions at all.

[revsykes]

Do you test your DVDs BEFORE you burn ?

Yes, when I get bad DVDs, I mean bad VOBs, sorry. That should answer the other questions, I never burn bad VOBs and I almost never get a different result burned on DVD.

Why haven't you upgraded XP to SP2 ?

Why should I? I wasn't aware it helps in any way related to DVD-authoring, enlighten me!

I suspect there is more detail in your process than you are sharing with us. A solid process always leads to predictable results, and if it doesn't, at least makes it much easier to pin point what has changed and caused it to go wrong.

Well, no I think the process is pretty much as I said. As far as settings in TMPGenc, that could go on for volumes of what I've tried, everything from default wizard to completely custom. I'd really like to just know a good all around setting to try, rather than recount the thousands of configs I've tried.

Like I said, audio is almost always a problem, maybe I need to try not using BeSweet and see what happens. . .

Also can you explain why you think Encore is a weak point? I'm actually not nuts about the UI (prefer DVD-Lab) but not familiar with it as to reliable output.

[revsykes]

When you encode in tmpgenc, do you have the "Closed GOP's" box ticked?
You should.

Yep, I did.

[guns1inger]

Do you test your DVDs BEFORE you burn ?

Yes, when I get bad DVDs, I mean bad VOBs, sorry. That should answer the other questions, I never burn bad VOBs and I almost never get a different result burned on DVD.

[

I'm not sure what this answer actually means. Are you saying you do test before every burn, and still get bad disks ? Or do you only test after you have bad burns ?

I am trying to narrow down the problem area to hopefully a single point of failure that we can address.

Basically, there is no 'make DVD' button that has the magic numbers. Each case is different, and the settings change depending on length of video, content of video, type of authoring required etc.

But the process should be the same each time. The difference is just what numbers are slotted in when.

XP SP2 has very little specific to DVD creation, however it does have a lot of fixes resolves a lot of issues. We run nothing but SP2, have upgraded 100's of machines to SP2, and it has been a more stable platform than SP1 or XP raw. Pretty much any software that may have had problems under SP2 in the past has been upgraded, so there should be no issues.

Most of your issues appear to be audio related, so that would seem to be the logical place to start changing things. Ditch besweet and adobe media encoder for the moment, and begin using ffmpeggui. see if that resolves the problems. Only ever feed it uncompressed wav files, even if this means an extra step along the way.

Get an exercise book and keep notes on your process. What programs, what settings, what order. Eventually you will find you have a series of settings that you will be able to use later, and also some that you know won't work or will cause you problems.

One more question - what type of source material do you usually use ? (DV, Divx, Mov etc, downloaded or self-shot)

[revsykes]

I'm not sure what this answer actually means. Are you saying you do test before every burn, and still get bad disks ? Or do you only test after you have bad burns ?

Yes, I test everytime. My question has nothing to do with burning, just encoding/authoring.

Basically, there is no 'make DVD' button that has the magic numbers. Each case is different, and the settings change depending on length of video, content of video, type of authoring required etc.

But the process should be the same each time. The difference is just what numbers are slotted in when.

I actually was under the impression that you could get a basic mpeg2 encoder/encoding setting, a reliable dvd authoring program and that would do you pretty well for all lengths and types of content. Not trying to become a compressionist, just a medium quality DVD author. The problems I am having are not about image quality, they are unusable due to audio. I tried a friend's Vegas mpeg2 encoder (MC) yesterday and got an abort error in DLP, assuming that this is a non-closed GOP error though. . .not sure exactly how to correct this in Vegas. Also tried his Canopus Procoder, this appeared to work correctly! I just can't believe this is the only solution, I kinda hate to shell out the cash for it. I have used TMPGenc with some success in the past and my friend swears it's just as good or better than Procoder.

One more question - what type of source material do you usually use ? (DV, Divx, Mov etc, downloaded or self-shot)

Almost all self-shot/composited/animated DV.

I'll try your other suggestions for the audio, and thanks for the follow up help!

[guns1inger]

DLP doesn't usually do anything other than point out that the GOPs are not closed. I get this everytime, and it has never taken offense to any video I have provided. The only issue you might have with open GOPs is that chapter placement isn't as accurate. But if you frame index, it will be pretty much the same with closed or open GOPs. Image quality wise, tmpgenc can be quite good. Almost to procoder quality in some instances. But it is a lot slower than procoder or MC. To close GOPs in Vegas, select mpeg2 as the output format (file -> Render As), then click on the custom button. There is a check box on the Advanced Video tab marked "Use closed GOPs". This is not checked by default.

If you have access to Vegas and it's AC3 plugin, try using that to produce your audio track. I use this plugin exclusively (either through Vegas or Sound Forge) and the results are perfect every time.

But whoever lead you to believe there was a magic set of numbers that suited all occassions was yanking your chain, or really did not know what they were talking about. Get a good bitrate calculator (this site has one online, and there a couple of good ones for download) and learn to use it. If your bitrate is too high you can get audio and image stuttering and breakup, similar to some of the symptoms you described.

[jman98]

Did you ever consider the possibility that your media might be crap? Ignore the Mac fan boys who told you to get a Mac. There is no reason you can't get good burns on a PC. I use CCE for encoding and Sonic Scenarist and it works great for me.
By the way, have you tested your discs in other DVD players? If not, why not? If so, do they have the same problems? If yes, look at your media. If they play OK on other systems, your DVD player may be the problem.

[harley2ride]

I'm just using Vegas 4 and Dvdarchitect 2, and it suits most of my needs for easily creating/editing video's. A bit of a learning curve, but not bad.

[Shadowmistress]

One more question - what type of source material do you usually use ? (DV, Divx, Mov etc, downloaded or self-shot)

Almost all self-shot/composited/animated DV.

What audio and video codecs do you use? Do you compress the wav? Have you checked your settings there?

[edDV]

I have never had these problems. Lets start at the source video-audio. What is it? What version of Premirere are you using?

[spectroelectro]

DVDLab is crap and well known for producing output not fully compatible with the DVD spec. Somewhere around 25% of the posts on this forum begging for help come from DVDLab users.

Ditch DVDLab and Encore. DVD Maestro is solid and reliable and known to produce 100% compatible DVD output.

BeSweet is known to produce output which is not completely compatible with the ac3 spec. If you doubt this, run BeSweet the other way and convert your BeSweet-generated ac3 back into WAV format with verbose error detection turned on. You'll see hundreds of runs of "illegal asymmetric value" pop up on your screen during conversion.

Some DVD players are sensitive to the non-standard ac3 put out by BeSweet, while others aren't. I won an upgarded Apex AD600A whose firm I've flashed to let is play DVD-R/W and DVD+R/W as well as DVD-Rs, and the Apex has no problem playing BeSweet's ac3. Ditto my Daewoo 5700 DVD player. However, certian models of Panasonic DVD player are known to have problems with BeSweet-produced ac3.

Sounds like your problem is likely to be a combo of BeSweet + DVDLab plus an overly sensitive DVD player. Have you tried loaning your DVDs to folks with other brands of DVD players/ Do they get wobbling audio?

If not, spend $30 on a Cyberhome or some other cheap model that plays essentially everything. I got my Daewoo for $40 and it plays everything I throw at it.

[non-linear]

DVDLab is crap and well known for producing output not fully compatible with the DVD spec. Somewhere around 25% of the posts on this forum begging for help come from DVDLab users.

Ditch DVDLab and Encore. DVD Maestro is solid and reliable and known to produce 100% compatible DVD output.

I've authored tons of stuff in DVD-lab and continue to get great results.

My capturing to authoring setup goes like this:
(DVD Recorder) - DGDecode - TMPGEnc - ffmpeggui - DVD-lab

Not sure what the problem is, but I second what guns1nger said about using ffmpeggui for the audio. Another thing you could try is instead of rendering an avi then encoding in TMPGEnc, you can frameserve from the timeline using Debugmode Frameserver (it's free).

Of course it's also important to use quality media; if you use Princo, Ritek, or some other cheap crap, then that can cause problems too.

[guns1inger]

DVDLab is crap and well known for producing output not fully compatible with the DVD spec. Somewhere around 25% of the posts on this forum begging for help come from DVDLab users.

Any imperical evidence to support this statement ?

I would suggest that 90%+ of DVD Lab problems raised at this site are user error. They are caused either by people who have no idea what they are doing, and can't be bothered reading, or people who try to use poor quality assets in the first instance.

If you have documented proof that DVD Lab produces out of spec output, I would be interested in seeing. Having used this product for quite some time now, I have yet to produce a disk the does not play on a wide variety of playback devices.

[jimmalenko]

If you have documented proof that DVD Lab produces out of spec output, I would be interested in seeing.

1. Authoring SVCDs as-is makes some sort of DVD-SVCD which is not compliant to the DVD standard due to the frame size.

[Shadowmistress]

If you have documented proof that DVD Lab produces out of spec output, I would be interested in seeing.

1. Authoring SVCDs as-is makes some sort of DVD-SVCD which is not compliant to the DVD standard due to the frame size.

Not true. By default dvdlab does not accept nonstandard dvd sizes but the user can choose to relax that restriction.

I've made tons of dvd's using 352x240 on dvdlab (both ripped off vcd and from scratch) and had absolutely NO problems whatsoever. These are just as compliant as any VCD would be on any player. Whether dvdlab made them or any other authoring app (if it allows) really makes no difference on if your player can play them.

Dvdlab is one of the finest authoring apps out there.

[jimmalenko]

If you have documented proof that DVD Lab produces out of spec output, I would be interested in seeing.

1. Authoring SVCDs as-is makes some sort of DVD-SVCD which is not compliant to the DVD standard due to the frame size.

Not true. By default dvdlab does not accept nonstandard dvd sizes but the user can choose to relax that restriction.

But even allowing the user to ignore the error is therefore producing non-standard output, even if the user brought it upon themselves. TDA does the same.

I've made tons of dvd's using 352x240 on dvdlab (both ripped off vcd and from scratch) and had absolutely NO problems whatsoever. These are just as compliant as any VCD would be on any player. Whether dvdlab made them or any other authoring app (if it allows) really makes no difference on if your player can play them.

Dvdlab is one of the finest authoring apps out there.

352 by 240 is DVD-compliant anyway though

[Shadowmistress]

But even allowing the user to ignore the error is therefore producing non-standard output, even if the user brought it upon themselves. TDA does the same.

That does not support the theory that dvdlab is a substandard authoring app. though.

Compared to TDA and alot of the popular apps being used around here, dvdlab surpasses them once you get past the "user error" part.

[guns1inger]

That is gives you the option to include SVCD resolution does not support the claim that it creates non-spec output. You have to explicitly change the settings to allow, and acknowledge that you are creating a non-standard disk at compile time as well.

spectroelectro's statement is that DVD Lab Pro is well known for producing out of spec output. There is no qualification that it allows out of spec output as an option, but not as default.

[jimmalenko]

But even allowing the user to ignore the error is therefore producing non-standard output, even if the user brought it upon themselves. TDA does the same.

That does not support the theory that dvdlab is a substandard authoring app. though.

I'm not saying that, because then that's bunching TDA in the same (hypocritical) boat !

Compared to TDA and alot of the popular apps being used around here, dvdlab surpasses them once you get past the "user error" part.

No doubt. And without question.

The point of my post being that it CAN and DOES produce out of spec output, despite the fact that the user has told it to do so. A lot of other software locks you down on things grossly out of spec like PAL and NTSC on the same track, only MP2 audio on an all-NTSC disc, and things like that.

[guns1inger]

It only does it when the user tells it to. It has to be requested.

I would rather this that something like Encore, which actually locks you out of using in spec resolutions and features.

[revsykes]

Ditch DVDLab and Encore. DVD Maestro is solid and reliable and known to produce 100% compatible DVD output.

I agree DVDMaestro is great, I don't like Encore at all, glad to ditch it if something else works reliably and with quality results, I never had the right drivers for DVDMeastro to use realtime preview but still got it to complie solidly, out of all of them I get the most reliable results with it. However it's getting long in the tooth and how long has it been a non-product? Also is a little odd for creating menus (every time I forget how to do it and have to read some tutorial to do it again). I am Getting closer to needing to be able to actually provide DVD content as part of my job so I am trying to get more familiar with the more commercial packages when I can.

I am actually not concerned about DVDs working in my home player, I am creating content in a "fine arts" context not ever really backing up DVD movies, and I am mostly concerned about image quality, sound and compatibility with a wide variety of devices.

Again, It's not the media, not about burning, this is about complied DVDs that have problems after compile or errors during compile.

I'm not sure I understand the issue with bitrate calculators, if I use a CBR of 6000 that should be fairly all-purpose as I understand it. I rarely am encoding full length stuff to the point where I'd have to encode any slower rate.[/quote]

[revsykes]

One more question - what type of source material do you usually use ? (DV, Divx, Mov etc, downloaded or self-shot)

Almost all self-shot/composited/animated DV.

What audio and video codecs do you use? Do you compress the wav? Have you checked your settings there?

I don't usually do anything different than PCM 48k WAV.

Video I use MSDV NTSC and QTDV NTSC or Animation/PJpeg QT. Honestly I really have a clouded understanding of what codec needs to be used when, as my workflow goes both through Premiere and After Effects. Lately I've noticed rendering to DV is a step that seems to make it all crappier, whereas totally uncompressed files look great though WAY too big to be manageable.

[guns1inger]

I usually render to TGA stills when doing animation or 3d work, and yes, space disappears very quickly. The MSDV codec is one of the worst DV codecs for quality - it's only value is to allow playback through WMM on a clean machine.

CBR of 6000 is actually pretty low. If you are working with a total combined running time (all assets) of 60 minutes or less, you can push this up to around 8400. Low CBR encoding is much more likely to lead to artifacts in fast moving scenes as there is no headroom for the encoder. If your DV is relatively stable (i.e. predominantly tripod/dolly mounted shots) then VBR is also a good option if the running time starts to get longer.