Capturing w/different mediums

[tcq007]

I need the easiest way to capture HI-8 tapes and VHS tapes onto my computer.

So heres my set up now:
Pentium 4 2.00 GHz, 256 mb Ram
I have Firewire card w/3 ports (and fire wire of course)
I have a Canon GL-1 (use the DV out with the firewire card to capture the MiniDV tapes)
I have multiple HI-8 tapes and nothing that can play them
I have VHS tapes and a VCR with only RCA in and out
I use Adobe Premiere Pro to edit/capture

So again, what would be the quickest, cheapest, cleanest way to capture the footage i have on my VHS and hi-8 tapes. I want the capturing to be quick so it doesnt take a week to to it all. I want the cleanest cause it just annoying having to switch stuff around alot. And i want the cheapest for obvious reasons.

I sort of thought that yes i could just get a new video card or somthing of that nature that has RCA, S-Video etc on it. Then just buy a old HI-8 camcorder off ebay; but i was wondering if there is an easier way.

Any suggestions at all wil be helpful, even a place to get good types of converting cables (firewire to s-video or the like)

[Abbadon]

Hi,

Due to the fact that you want something "fast", I could just recommend you to go for one of the two following cards:

1. AVerMedia UltraTV™ Media Center PCI 500

http://www.aver.com/products/tvtuner_UltraTV_pci_500.shtml

This card has a hardware mpeg encoder and you can record directly to DVD or VCD format.

The bundle software let you watch and capture on the fly.

1. Hauppauge PVR 250

http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_pvr250.html

Both cards let you use S-Video or Composite cable, in addition, they are excelent for TV reception and recording.

Buena suerte chico.

[edDV]

Fast and easy?

Method 1:

Hi8: Rent/borrow a Digital8 camcorder (one with Hi8 playback capability) and transfer through to the hard drive at 1X speed and feed tape after tape.

VHS: Use the analog pass through feature on the GL-1 or the rented Digital8 and capture 1x.

Pro: best quality Hi8 capture, cheap, fast.
DV format to allow inclusion in your DV projects.

Con: Cavieat on the above. Hi8 and VHS both have NTSC 7.5 IRE setup so the black level will be captured incorrectly to digital level 32 rather than 16 using analog pass through. They will play back at proper NTSC levels from a DV tape. If you want to author the captures to DVD or include in a DV project, then you should process the black levels to 16 first.

Method 2:

PVR-250/350 realtime MPeg2 capture from S-Video (Hi8) and composite (VHS).

Pro: Very good quality, fastest if you include MPeg2 encode times.

Con: Need to buy PVR-250/350. No DV originals if your goal is to integrate these into your DV projects. Conversion back to a DV editing timeline from MPeg2 will be lossy.

[vhelp]

Another suggestion/alternative ...

Look into the dvd recorder area. There are plenty of decent models
to choose from and all will already be burned to a dvd-r disk for you.

Easy, and no fuss w/ win OS; drivers; software; IRQ's; or anything computer
related. Just open, connect vcr to, and press RECORD.. don't forget
to finalize

Two dvd recorder suggestions ...

** iLO 04
** Pioneer DVR-220-S
** other brand/makes

With the iLO brands, you can use the firmware tweaks by Guitarman,
when your source is Commercial VHS that have Macrovision on them.

-vhelp 3606

[harley2ride]

For the price of the hauppage card, you can get the ADS PYRO AV/LINK, with adobe premiere elements, and have a semi-professional editing solution, and from there you can upgrade software only to have a more professional solution. Go to www.videoguys.com, and they don't even mention the hauppage stuff.

[slacker]

edDV wrote,

Con: Cavieat on the above. Hi8 and VHS both have NTSC 7.5 IRE setup so the black level will be captured incorrectly to digital level 32 rather than 16 using analog pass through. They will play back at proper NTSC levels from a DV tape. If you want to author the captures to DVD or include in a DV project, then you should process the black levels to 16 first.

I don't understand the insertion that they will play back at proper NTSC levels from a DV tape. I would think that if I capture to my PC using analog to digital pass thru, correct for IRE (Vegas using levels), and print back to tape, only then would it play back properly from the DV tape.

[edDV]

edDV wrote,

Con: Cavieat on the above. Hi8 and VHS both have NTSC 7.5 IRE setup so the black level will be captured incorrectly to digital level 32 rather than 16 using analog pass through. They will play back at proper NTSC levels from a DV tape. If you want to author the captures to DVD or include in a DV project, then you should process the black levels to 16 first.

I don't understand the insertion that they will play back at proper NTSC levels from a DV tape. I would think that if I capture to my PC using analog to digital pass thru, correct for IRE (Vegas using levels), and print back to tape, only then would it play back properly from the DV tape.

NTSC has 7.5 IRE black (e.g. from analog TV broadcast, VHS, 8mm and Hi8 sources)

If you analog record that to DV tape or pass through IEEE-1394 to the computer hard disk, black will record to digital level 32 and white to digital level 235. If you play that back to analog the signal will play with 7.5 IRE black.

Note that DV camcorder material will play back at 0-100 IRE analog levels.

The problem comes when you attempt to edit NTSC captures together with DV format material or make a DVD. DV format and DVD MPeg2 require black at level 16, not 32 and white at level 235.

DVD is authored with 16-235 levels for both PAL and NTSC. An NTSC DVD player will add 7.5 IRE to black in the final analog output stage for composite, S-Video and Y outputs.

If you were to encode 32-235 NTSC captures to DVD MPeg2 and play back on an NTSC DVD player, the DVD player will add an additional 7.5 IRE setup so the analog video will output with 15 IRE black and 107.5 IRE white. This would require a brightness adjustment on the TV.

ref: http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/JVC_DEMO.swf

[slacker]

edDV,

Good JVC demo!

I understand your explanation. Thank you.

Why I am questioning your reference to DV tape is that I was curious whether recording from Hi-8 tape to DV tape, rather than using analog passthru to a PC hard drive would eliminate the IRE issue altogether.

In other words,

Does Hi-8 camcorder (tape) directly to DV camcorder (tape) yield the same result as

hi-8 camcorder (tape) to hard drive (analog passthru) to DV camcorder (print to tape)?

Sounds reasonable, but I don't take anything for granted anymore!

[slacker]

Oh BTW,

I analog-digital passed some SONY Hi-8 footage through to my hard drive using a CANON DV camcorder and it definitely looks washed out.

HOWEVER, when I apply a 7.5 IRE adj using the Vegas instrx in this thread, it comes out rather dark on my computer monitor, darker than say the same footage recorded onto DVD using my Panasonic ES30VS using s-video inputs. And to some, the Panasonic ES30VS is considered too dark already. After rendering using different adjustments, I find 6.0 - 6.5 to match the Panny, and possibly down to 5.0 for everyone else's tastes.

I guess my question is, even though in the text books the corrective adjustment s/b a straight 7.5, does anyone find that it actually fluctuates quite a bit in the real world?

[edDV]

edDV,

Good JVC demo!

I understand your explanation. Thank you.

Why I am questioning your reference to DV tape is that I was curious whether recording from Hi-8 tape to DV tape, rather than using analog passthru to a PC hard drive would eliminate the IRE issue altogether.

In other words,

Does Hi-8 camcorder (tape) directly to DV camcorder (tape) yield the same result as

hi-8 camcorder (tape) to hard drive (analog passthru) to DV camcorder (print to tape)?

Sounds reasonable, but I don't take anything for granted anymore!

Recording to DV tape first makes no difference for computer transfer. The results would be the same.

Since 7.5 IRE setup gets recorded to level 32, when played back analog from the camcorder 32 black plays back with the same 7.5 IRE setup that was recorded.

A key point is DV camcorder recordings (as shot by the camera) play back 0-100 IRE i.e. without setup. This will look dark on a TV unless brightness is adjusted.

[edDV]

Oh BTW,

I analog-digital passed some SONY Hi-8 footage through to my hard drive using a CANON DV camcorder and it definitely looks washed out.

HOWEVER, when I apply a 7.5 IRE adj using the Vegas instrx in this thread, it comes out rather dark on my computer monitor, darker than say the same footage recorded onto DVD using my Panasonic ES30VS using s-video inputs. And to some, the Panasonic ES30VS is considered too dark already. After rendering using different adjustments, I find 6.0 - 6.5 to match the Panny, and possibly down to 5.0 for everyone else's tastes.

I guess my question is, even though in the text books the corrective adjustment s/b a straight 7.5, does anyone find that it actually fluctuates quite a bit in the real world?

First, a computer monitor is not a good measurement instrument for judging levels. There are two ways to view video on a computer monitor: directly or by display card overlay.

When viewed directly, correct DV/DVD 0-100 IRE (16-235 digital) video levels will appear dark. Computer monitors use a more linear gamma and a different type of phorphor compared to a TV. Computer monitors are optimized for adequate contrast in a brightly lighted room (e.g. office). TV set gamma provides more detail in the blacks in a more dimly lit home (or theater) environment.

To overcome this problem, computer video playback software uses the overlay function on the display card to alter (brighten and gamma adjust) the look of video playback on a computer monitor. By this method DVD or DV video can be altered to look good for computer display.

While good for viewing, these adjustments are not calibrated for quality judgement and provide little prediction of how the video will look on a TV when played back from a DVD. Overlay adjustments are usually found in Display Properties-Settings-Advanced.

If you are intending to make a DVD for TV viewing, you should make quality judgements by viewing the result on a properly calibrated TV monitor. Vegas and other prosumer editing programs include waveform monitors to objectively view video levels. These instruments can get you in the ball park but to make fine adjustments to levels you should have a TV monitor hooked up to the DV camcorder (or transcoder like a Canopus ADVC-100/110/300) to view the affects of levels adjustment.

Lacking Vegas like direct monitoring*, one should make test DVDs (using DVD-RW to control cost). The test DVD is played from a DVD player to a TV monitor. The test DVD should include a reference color bar for TV monitor adjustment and then the video clips to be evaluated.

That is the big picture. You will find more detail in these threads. Feel free to ask more.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=259098
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=277980&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

* also found in Adobe Premiere, Apple Final Cut Pro, Avid ExpressDV, etc.)

[slacker]

I went ahead and transferred my Hi-8 video tapes over to DV tape awhile ago and, yes, they all appeared washed out. I will NOW adjust the black levels as required and redo them all.

Yes. I'm moving up to Vegas+DVD from Vegas Movie Studio Platinum hopefully within the next week or so. That should help the monitoring issue.

It seems the more I delve into this hobby, the more I find I MUST take into account IF my goal is to take advantage of all that the technology has to offer. (And it is!)

Thanks again!

[harley2ride]

I have also transferred HI-8 to my pc using my JVC VCR, and an adapter which holds the hi-8 tape inside a vcr cartridge, and used my ADS PYRO AV/Link to capture. It came out very good. Very inexpensive way to do it..

[edDV]

I have also transferred HI-8 to my pc using my JVC VCR, and an adapter which holds the hi-8 tape inside a vcr cartridge..

That would be VHS-C camcorder tape not Hi8. VHS-C is also recorded with 7.5 IRE setup for NTSC.

[slacker]

A very economical way to do it, yes!

But once your edits are done and you have to record back out to dvd and miniDV tape, the media costs start adding up, especially if you're talking 100+ hours!

In the miniDV tape arena I took someone's advice on another thread and am trying some TDK tapes I picked up at Costco for $20 per 8pak. This compares to Sony Digital Master DVCAM tape @ $16.50 EACH. Woah! I hope it is true that cheap tapes don't mean less reliability. I have come to believe with dvd discs cheap = unreliable.

[slacker]

What I did...

Source = 10 year old Sony Hi-8 camcorder playing Hi-8 tape (home video)

Connected VIA s-video to a new Canon Optura 500 miniDV camcorder passed through VIA 4-pin to 4-pin firewire to my PC.

Imported into and cut-only edited using Sony Movie Studio Platinum
Rendered one copy with no other changes
Rendered one copy with levels filter change 0.075 INPUT as suggested

Inported into and rendered as MPEG2 using DVDA
Burned to TDK DVD -RW disc for viewing

Played using Panasonic ES30VS DVD recorder/player attached to a Sharp Aquos 20" LCD TV.

Personal feeling...
The IRE adjusted video appeared way too dark on my TV, absolutely no detail in the shadows. The original video was much more pleasing to watch and only ever, ever so slightly "gray", almost not noticeable unless you're looking for it. And even then, it could just be a figment of my imagination.

I'll try this whole thing again when I receive Vegas+DVD and I can use the graphs to analyze the black levels more accurately.

Using my eyeballs only, I don't think the original requires that much adjustment, i.e. 0.075.

[edDV]

What I did...

Source = 10 year old Sony Hi-8 camcorder playing Hi-8 tape (home video)

Connected VIA s-video to a new Canon Optura 500 miniDV camcorder passed through VIA 4-pin to 4-pin firewire to my PC.

Imported into and cut-only edited using Sony Movie Studio Platinum
Rendered one copy with no other changes
Rendered one copy with levels filter change 0.075 INPUT as suggested

Inported into and rendered as MPEG2 using DVDA
Burned to TDK DVD -RW disc for viewing

Played using Panasonic ES30VS DVD recorder/player attached to a Sharp Aquos 20" LCD TV.

Personal feeling...
The IRE adjusted video appeared way too dark on my TV, absolutely no detail in the shadows. The original video was much more pleasing to watch and only ever, ever so slightly "gray", almost not noticeable unless you're looking for it. And even then, it could just be a figment of my imagination.

I'll try this whole thing again when I receive Vegas+DVD and I can use the graphs to analyze the black levels more accurately.

Using my eyeballs only, I don't think the original requires that much adjustment, i.e. 0.075.

Adjust it where it looks good but make sure TV and DVD player are adjusted properly to the Vegas color bar.

The "SMPTE Bars (NTSC)" will be calibrated 0-100IRE (16-235 digital) in the DV - DVD MPeg2 space. Settings = "Studio RGB 16-235" checked, 7.5 IRE unchecked.



When played back on the DVD player, there should be 7.5 IRE added to black (by the DVD player*) and white scales back to 100. This should match the Hi8 camcorder played back to the TV through composite or S-Video. If it doesn't match, you have a calibration problem during capture or during encoding or your DVD player output settings are incorrect.

The color bars should play at these levels from the DVD player.



Ref: http://www.indianapolisfilm.net/article.php?story=20040117004721902

Another way to adjust the monitor is from the THX test signals found on some commercial DVDs. If your system is in calibration, you shouldn't see much difference in levels playing back a THX DVD, your Vegas color bars from your DVD, the Hi8 camcorder played directly to the TV or NTSC broadcasts.

Ref:
http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvd/video.html

* some Chinese DVD players don't add 7.5 IRE setup and play at 0-100 IRE levels. Those players will look dark unless TV brightness is adjusted. Same goes for MiniDV and Digital8 camcorders when playing back camera acquired DV video at 0-100 IRE.

[slacker]

When I encode the SMPTE NTSC test pattern and play it on my TV it is ALMOST dead right on, my Aquos requiring only -2 black level clicks which is not much at all. The Panasonic ES30VS dvd recorder is setup in its default configuration, which also corresponds to zorankarapancev's thread on the Panasonic black level setups. That would be...

input level = darker
composite & SVideo output level = lighter
component video output level = normal

So far everything is telling me that my Canon camcorder may be correcting during pass thru or something to that effect. And, if so, I won't have to correct my IRE levels post-capture.

Still playing wait and see until I check with Vegas' readings.

There seems to be three Sony VMS filters which touch on this thread's topic...

I believe these are implemented the same in Sony Vegas, but am not altogether sure.

Broadcast Colors, one template is called "Conservative - 7.5 Setup"
Color Corrector, one template is called "Computer RGB to Studio RGB"
Levels, one template is called "Studio RGB to Computer RGB"; this filter is cited above for adjusting IRE black levels.

All three seem to overlap in function although I have no technical knowledge of any of these other than what I have gathered from this web site.

[slacker]

My eyeballs are about to fall out of their sockets. I don't think my camcorder is compensating for the IRE during pass thru. However, I can't get a perfect read on what the IRE correction should be without a scope of some kind. I know it's not a perfect 0.075, maybe somewhere between 0.045 and 0.070. Can you rent something?

[edDV]

My eyeballs are about to fall out of their sockets. I don't think my camcorder is compensating for the IRE during pass thru. However, I can't get a perfect read on what the IRE correction should be without a scope of some kind. I know it's not a perfect 0.075, maybe somewhere between 0.045 and 0.070. Can you rent something?

Just post a frame cap jpg (not a screen cap) here. I'll run it through Vegas.

[slacker]

Hi-8 passedthru Optura 500
1ST Frame cap using Vegas Movie Studio Preview Window



2ND Frame cap

[slacker]

Hi-8 passedthru Optura 500
1ST Frame cap using Vegas Movie Studio Preview Window

[/img]

[slacker]

2nd Frame Cap

[edDV]

You were correct that this video has black excursions below analog 7.5 IRE (32 digital). Here are the input waveforms. I put digital levels on the sides.






Here I apply 7.5 IRE correction to the right half and as you can see black dips below level 16, so some intermediate level correction would be needed. This is a typical case where eyeballing the result on a calibrated TV monitor would get best results. Gamma adjustment and color correction could help bring detail out of that background shaded area.

[slacker]

Thanks edDV!
Appreciate the time and expertise offered!
At least my eyeballs are calibrated!
(If AT all possible.)

Are the Vegas' waveforms enough to calculate an IRE adjustment? Or should I go the eyeball route as you recommend? Or combine both? I think I already know the answer to this one!

Or is there a NOT2 expensive hardware device which I could invest in for the long haul? Something gshelley touched on in another thread...

Again, thank you!

[edDV]

Thanks edDV!
Appreciate the time and expertise offered!
At least my eyeballs are calibrated!
(If AT all possible.)

Are the Vegas' waveforms enough to calculate an IRE adjustment? Or should I go the eyeball route as you recommend? Or combine both? I think I already know the answer to this one!

The waveform monitor quickly shows what is going on and can get the picture technically correct but the fine tune should be done from a calibrated TV monitor.

The overall gain of those pictures was a bit high but the scene was one of extreme contrast.. The high gain could have originated in the original Hi8 camcorder, the playback camcorder or in the transcoding MiniDv camcorder.

[slacker]

edDV,

I couldn't help but notice that after applying the 0.075 Vegas level correction, the target appears "overshot", i.e. the black level moved a distance longer in length than the distance between 32 and 16 on your waveform. Any ideas?

[edDV]

edDV,

I couldn't help but notice that after applying the 0.075 Vegas level correction, the target appears "overshot", i.e. the black level moved a distance longer in length than the distance between 32 and 16 on your waveform. Any ideas?

I cut and pasted the corrected vs original here. it looks like around 7.5 IRE or 16 digital steps digital to me.

[slacker]

Well,

now that I have Vegas+DVD installed and operational, I've been playing with the various filters using the Videoscopes. Have a question!

With regard to Luminance,

From our discussion, I know that I can adjust the IRE of my Hi-8 to DV captures using the levels filter, but using the brightness filter seems to do the same thing. Is there any value in using the levels filter over the brightness and contrast filter?

[edDV]

Well,

now that I have Vegas+DVD installed and operational, I've been playing with the various filters using the Videoscopes. Have a question!

With regard to Luminance,

From our discussion, I know that I can adjust the IRE of my Hi-8 to DV captures using the levels filter, but using the brightness filter seems to do the same thing. Is there any value in using the levels filter over the brightness and contrast filter?

Yes two ways to get to the same result. The scopes show how they each work.

The levels filter is calibrated in IRE units.

The brightness and contrast filter works this way.

Brightness - raises the entire gray scale up and down.
Contrast (nominal) - Expands and contracts gain centered on 50 IRE

Contrast center - adjusts gain weighting. Zero expands up from digital zero (-8 IRE). 100 adjusts down from digital 255 (108IRE). In between contrast is weighted to black or white.