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  1. Banned
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    Wonderful. So I violate the law under the current form. I can look forward to not being able to violate the law under the HDCP model. But I really fail to see what this has to do with anything? I'd bet the person quoting me from other threads does what I do and more. Busted, I think not.

    All you have done is support the HDCP model of protection even further. Thanks. Like I've said, I'm learning new things all the time in this thread.
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  2. Oh what trip
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  3. Member painkiller's Avatar
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    It's about time.
    Whatever doesn't kill me, merely ticks me off. (Never again a Sony consumer.)
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  4. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ROF
    Wonderful. So I violate the law under the current form.
    ...
    I'd bet the person quoting me from other threads does what I do and more. Busted, I think not.

    All you have done is support the HDCP model of protection even further. Thanks. Like I've said, I'm learning new things all the time in this thread.
    Talk about "the pot calling the kettle black"!

    Scott
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  5. Member rhegedus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ROF
    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    Originally Posted by ROF
    OK! But I'm not selling anything. Selling is not allowed on this site. I am merely pointing out that HDCP will not allow you to view HD content on an inferior screen. Blah, blah, blah.....
    I can't be arsed to read through 11 pages, but when did I or anyone else say that?
    No need to look back. You need only move up this page to where you told me to stop selling something. I am not selling anything, but again you seem to have lost track of the subject matter. HDCP will ensure you only use high definition displays and do not down convert the signal or pass-through the signal to non-HDCP device such as a VCR or DVD Recorder. It ensures the high quality display environment for the high definition video, while at the same time offering the protection of the intellectual property being displayed to ensure that everyone does not continue to casually violate the law by backing up this high definition content.
    No, numbnuts , I meant this:

    I am merely pointing out that HDCP will not allow you to view HD content on an inferior screen.
    Who cares? I'm sure the purpose of HDCP has nothing to do with not allowing to view HD content on a crappy 14" portable TV. As it is, D1 resolution has exceeded the capabilities of most televisions for the past 10 or so years and no one has stopped DVDs from playing to crappy TVs.

    Point is, increasing resolutions have set the pace for TV technology - by your inference newer media would be unplayable on all pre-existing TVs. How would we ever know how good it was?
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  6. Member pdemondo's Avatar
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    ROF Wrote:
    I'd bet the person quoting me from other threads does what I do and more. Busted, I think not.

    All you have done is support the HDCP model of protection even further. Thanks. Like I've said, I'm learning new things all the time in this thread.


    I may back up my content, but I am certainly not going to complain about
    others being able to do it.

    Yes you are sooo busted for complaining about what you are doing.
    (It is obvious to the rest of us, can't you see it)

    So I ask you (given your desire to comply with content providers), are you now going to stop ripping DVD's completely and destroy your copies?

    Second will you confess that you are a reformed digital content violater and that you will NEVER disobey the wishes of content providers again.

    Most of us like to buy, burn backups, and enjoy fair use and
    IGNORE the excessive wishes of the MPAA/RIAA.
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    Originally Posted by pdemondo

    So I ask you (given your desire to comply with content providers), are you now going to stop ripping DVD's completely and destroy your copies?

    Second will you confess that you are a reformed digital content violater and that you will NEVER disobey the wishes of content providers again.
    1) Yes I will stop. I do not wish to violate the law, but by pointing out that I was violating the law and not knowing it further backs up the idea that casual violations need to be stopped.

    2) Yes, I will confess to being a former digital and analog content violator as I do not wish to violate the law or rob the artists, producers, marketers, and so on from their due payments.

    I want to thank Adam for pointing this out and also congratulate Amy from a local TV affiliate for backing up what was said here by Adam earlier this evening about my violations.

    It is for this reason and many others that HDCP or stronger measures need to be instituted. Casual violators who have no idea they are even violating the law need to have their equipment not allow them to continue violating the law. The automated age demands no less. I have typed up a generic letter which I will proof and be mailing to the government officials listed earlier in this thread apologizing for my past violations and that for the sake of the entertainment industry that these officials need to support stronger measures such as mandatory broadcast flags and HDCP backed by network enabled A/V equipment as soon as possible before more people like myself casually violate the law without their knowledge and end up with lengthy jail time and/or excessive fines.
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    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    Point is, increasing resolutions have set the pace for TV technology - by your inference newer media would be unplayable on all pre-existing TVs. How would we ever know how good it was?
    How do you know what progressive scan looks like if your TV is incapable of it?

    How do you know what color TV is like if you or no one you know owns a color set?

    How do you know that a 35" HD Monitor looks better than a 35" Composite?

    How do you know DVD Video looks better than VHS?

    You must either know someone, check it out in your local stores, buy it yourself, or in some other way experience it. To avoid casual law breaking HDCP plus stronger measures must be instituted. Piracy on all levels hurts the industry as a whole. How can you not understand this?
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  9. Member rhegedus's Avatar
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    Well now, the jump from VHS to DVD is quite noticable even on a CRT TV - VHS is generally acknowledged to be no greater than the equivalent of half D1 3000kbps max whereas DVD is.....well, you know, or at least you should

    That's enough to whet the appetite for most CRT TV users to make the jump to at least a widescreen CRT if not a plasma.

    The rest is pretty much irrelevant if the TV was incapable of utilising it, but at least useres were not prohibited from viewing their purchase which is as you would have it.

    You must either know someone, check it out in your local stores, buy it yourself, or in some other way experience it.
    No need, as I said from the above.....

    To avoid casual law breaking HDCP plus stronger measures must be instituted. Piracy on all levels hurts the industry as a whole. How can you not understand this?
    You've already shown yourself to have little understanding of the law so don't lecture. I'm no lawyer, but I know when I'm being screwed. If I buy a DVD and want to rip and convert it to watch on my laptop (say DivX so that my battery isn't worn down by the DVD drive being constantly active) or PDA for a transatlantic flight then I will as I don't consider it piracy since no-one else benefits from my actions and no profits are lost by the DVD distributor.

    How can you not understand this?
    Regards,

    Rob
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    Originally Posted by rhegedus

    You've already shown yourself to have little understanding of the law so don't lecture. I'm no lawyer, but I know when I'm being screwed. If I buy a DVD and want to rip and convert it to watch on my laptop (say DivX so that my battery isn't worn down by the DVD drive being constantly active) or PDA for a transatlantic flight then I will as I don't consider it piracy since no-one else benefits from my actions and no profits are lost by the DVD distributor.

    How can you not understand this?
    I understand this, but what you must also understand is that what you've described above is illegal and you can be jailed and fined for continuing on your current course of action. I don't claim to understand all of these laws, but I do know that media shifting and backups of movies are illegal under current US law.
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  11. Member shelbyGT's Avatar
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    So... laws are infallible to you, then? Most of us don't agree with the law that says we can't backup our own purchased media for private viewing. Yes, we know we are breaking the law, but we think it's a silly law and one we don't choose to follow.

    I would think the average person would agree with us on that one. It's kind of like everyone on the highway going 5 over the speed limit. Heck, cops don't even pull you over for that most of the time.

    So, ROF, I think the reason you are causing so many ruffled feathers is because of your staunch stance against trying to .... free up... the legal backing up of media and it's related topics. We know what the RIAA/MPAA wants, and we don't want the same thing (we being the others on this topic, I don't claim to speak for the masses really).

    So, you don't think anyone should be able to backup their DVD's because it is against the law. Solid argument. We don't agree with you, and up until one day ago, you would have agreed with us (considering how you do it).

    I hope that now that you have stopped violating the law by not making backups, you also do the following:

    -never come to a rolling stop at a stop sign
    -never go 5 miles over the speed limit
    -don't ride a bike on a sidewalk
    -don't cross a street at a non-marked pedestrian pathway
    -Don't have anything but missionary sex (hey, this is still illegal in some areas)
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    Originally Posted by shelbyGT
    Most of us don't agree with the law that says we can't backup our own purchased media for private viewing. Yes, we know we are breaking the law, but we think it's a silly law and one we don't choose to follow.
    That's an interesting view. When someone decides that murdering is a silly law I hope they choose you as their lawyer because it sounds as though you can defend them. How about seatbelts? Some people consider laws that require the use of seatbelts, yet people are ticketed daily for not using them. Some people think a road should be 55 MPH when it's clearly marked 30 MPH. Should these people be allowed to drive through this residential district at whatever speed they choose because the law is silly? How about spousal abuse? Cavemen used to beat up their wives and drag them by their hair. Some people it would seem still subscribe to this. Should we allow them to do so? In their view that law is silly. How about robbery? Some people think the best way to earn money is to steal from others. They don't believe in the laws against such action because they are silly. Should we allow them to continue unabated? How about broadcasting on Police radio bands? It was stated earlier by a few people in this topic that the airwaves belong to the public. They believe laws protecting the airwaves and their content are silly. Should anyone be able to broadcast on these emergency frequencies? how about assisted suicide? Some people believe laws against euthanaisa or assisted suicide are silly. Should we allow people to assist others murder themselves or even pull the trigger for them? How about as you've stated with rolling stops at stop signs? Should this law be repealed? Why bother having stop signs when yield signs would be more suited?

    As you can see, you and others may believe that laws are silly, but they are still laws and are put into place for the greater good. if you live in a democratic soceity you have the right to speak your opinions about such laws and even petition that they be removed, but you do not have the right to take the law into your own hands just because you think the law is silly.

    Because of the many peopke that have broken (some unintentional or unknowingly) the laws as it applies to intellectual property and the methods used to prevent such actions of theft are themselves broken by the lawless stronger methods must be applied in order to provide protection of IP. HDCP and broadcast flags are the first steps in the right direction for this to occur.
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  13. Member shelbyGT's Avatar
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    So now murder and DVD backup are on the same level. I suppose if we let gays marry then why not allow a 9 year old to marry a 33 year old.

    Let's not blow this out of the water with exaggerated arguments. We both know that the backing up of a purchased DVD for personal use is not even CLOSE to being on the same level.

    I was merely pointing out that slight breaking of the law is done every day, by everyone no matter who you are. How often do you see a cop driving at EXACTLY the speed limit? Rarely if ever is my experience. That was a somewhat okay parallel. Murder is not.

    Live in reality. Cops don't care about your backing up of your DVD collection. They have better things to do. Only unless they have to serve a warrant for you will they even bother with it.

    I'm not saying your'e wrong. I know that a law is a law, ignorance is no excuse and all of those other cliches. But honestly, you know and I know that me backing up the movie I just bought is not hurting anyone so long as I still use it for my own personal viewing. Now I know the MPAA would have me go buy another copy of that DVD, but puh-lease.
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  14. ROF wrote
    I understand this, but what you must also understand is that what you've described above is illegal and you can be jailed and fined for continuing on your current course of action.
    I think you're exaggerating again. I seem to recall this being addressed before, (and Adam, correct me if I'm wrong), what he is doing does not rise to the level of "criminal copyright infringement", and would have to be a civil case pursued by the copyright holder. No jail time or fines would be involved, only damages could be levied.
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    Originally Posted by shelbyGT
    So now murder and DVD backup are on the same level. I suppose if we let gays marry then why not allow a 9 year old to marry a 33 year old.

    Let's not blow this out of the water with exaggerated arguments. We both know that the backing up of a purchased DVD for personal use is not even CLOSE to being on the same level.
    While I agree, how many people have you known who got speeding tickets reduced to non-moving violations in court? Does obstruction of view and driving recklessly at excessive speeds equate? Why does this happen? How about the guy who murders in cold blood and pleads to a lesser crime for reduced jail time? These aren't exaggerated events but occur within the legal system regularly. A law is a law and violation of the law no matter law it is would no excuse to call it a lesser crime. Peoples livelihoods are damaged by rampant copyright infringement. While the guy who backs up his media for his kids because they tend to scratch or play frisbee with the bright shiny discs might not be considered as bad as the guy who rents DVDs each week and copies them by you and others, the crime is no less significant.

    Like I said, you can pick and choose which laws you want to break. But you must except that you are violating the law and are commiting to an action which is robbing your neighbor of dividends and industry people of their livelihood. You also can't pick and choose which crimes are lesser than others. Crimes cause undue hardship to their victims. Murder is significant, but so is stealing.

    HDCP and broadcast flags will have the effect of stopping this outright theft from occuring. It might have an adverse effect on you and others who casually break the law as I admitted to previously doing, but I'd imagine if that's all that copyright infringement involved, HDCP and broadcast flags would not even be considered a profitable technology to even research and develop. That's not why it's being instituted or even discussed. It's because of the way media is now distributed and the invention of the internet which makes illegal FTP/P2P transactions a worldwide dilemma.
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    Originally Posted by gadgetguy
    ROF wrote
    I understand this, but what you must also understand is that what you've described above is illegal and you can be jailed and fined for continuing on your current course of action.
    I think you're exaggerating again. I seem to recall this being addressed before, (and Adam, correct me if I'm wrong), what he is doing does not rise to the level of "criminal copyright infringement", and would have to be a civil case pursued by the copyright holder. No jail time or fines would be involved, only damages could be levied.
    Perhaps, but how about the guy who rents movies online and copies them? That's surely interstate piracy where the FBI and Federal prosecution is involved.
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  17. Member shelbyGT's Avatar
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    I'm not even going to converse on this if you keep trying to equate what is going on here to murder et all.
    The only similarity is that they are both against the law. Yes, I have never argued that. I realize I am breaking the law when I do it. No question, it's simple.
    But that's not enough reason to stop. I am going to protect my investment in the purchased movie by making a backup that will allow me to enjoy the feature for a greater time than only one copy would allow. I believe this is my right. No, the law doesn't agree with me. Am I afraid? No. And I don't put much weight in to your comment that all of a sudden you will stop doing the same.

    I know how the law states on this subject. I know that I think it's ridiculous that the consumer doesn't have the right to protect their purchase and instead is supposed to purchase another copy if they want a backup. I think it's wrong in this regard and thus I don't follow it. That's no excuse for breaking EVERY law on the books, no. And perhaps my thinking is fundamentally flawed. But I doubt I'm the only one who thinks the way I do.
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    Originally Posted by shelbyGT
    The only similarity is that they are both against the law. Yes, I have never argued that. I realize I am breaking the law when I do it. No question, it's simple.
    But that's not enough reason to stop. I am going to protect my investment in the purchased movie by making a backup that will allow me to enjoy the feature for a greater time than only one copy would allow. I believe this is my right. No, the law doesn't agree with me. Am I afraid? No.
    Exactly my point and the point of this thread. You willingly and acknowledge to violating the law because it serves your own purposes while it denies the rights of others. HDCP and Broadcast flags are the first necessary step in the solution to curtail your activities since you won't voluntarily do so yourself.
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  19. Member shelbyGT's Avatar
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    The only reason the MPAA's right is considered over mine is because my pocket book is not as deep. But this is the way of the world. Consumers want what they want and if that is in stark contrast to what the industry wants. In the end, consumers will win. If the majority of consumers don't like what is going on, they'll find ways to circumvent it. End of story. Now whether or not this whole HDCP flag crap falls in line with that, I have no idea. Frankly it might never affect me at all, so who knows?
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    Exact again. I think quite a few people are getting worked up over nothing. At $10-$20 a movie what's the price of double that to insure your investment is backed up? Where HDCP and broadcast flags will have the most effect is those who continually violate the law. Nobody in their right mind except a pirate would back up their entire media collection. By the time they did so, a new fangled media is on the market and you have to buy the movies all over again anyway. How many here owned laserdisc before VHS took off? When DVD became mainstream, how many switched again? The broadcast flags and HDCP or other network based protections will probably not even effect most of us, but like all systems of protection they are put into place for a reason. That reason is theft on the grand scale. I know I've said it before but just look at the almost weekly threads for movies and people who are backing them up and having problems. I'll bet that at least 50% of those people don't even own the media they are backing up or if they do once they make their copy they return it to the store for a refund. HDCP and protections like it will stop those people, while at the same time stop you and others who feel the laws against making copies is silly.
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  21. Member shelbyGT's Avatar
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    I guess it boils down to the fact that my "right" to back up my purchased media is not really my "right". That isn't hard to understand why it can get someone riled up, is it?

    And you're right, I feel that a law not letting me to protect my purchase is silly. I am in full agreeance with that.
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    No it's not hard to understand. It's similiar to taking a bottle away from a baby and giving them a cup instead. You get so used to what your doing so that when someone takes away your comfortable item you get all aggravated.

    No, I'm not equating anyone to baby status. I was just using that as an example.

    When macrovision was introduced to VHS there was an uproar throughout the community of people who could no longer back up their media. Macrovision lasted for sometime before it was broken or at least bypassed. I'd imagine HDCP and other technology will fall to a similiar fate. While I may be on a different side of the fence on this issue then you and others, I understand your viewpoint, I just don't agree with it.
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  23. Member shelbyGT's Avatar
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    so... agree to disagree, then?
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    I've been in agreement to disagree since page 2 or so.

    But it's been an interesting learning experience. I wonder what other new things will brought up on page 13?
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