Most Monitors Will Not Play New HD Video

[edDV]

Now not only are people making up their own minds on what they will watch and when they'll watch it, they are also choosing on what they'll watch it on, what format, where they get it from and where they'll watch it!

Exactly. Broadcast Flags and HDCP will allow this continue but with an added security measure to prevent casual IP theft that occurs daily in this information age. Remember, you can not legally backup any media you purchase. You are also not authorized to media shift (another form of backups) in the US. Broadcast flags and HDCP will help the end consumer make the right legal decision about how and where they watch their broadcasts and media. Right now, there is virtually no restrictions and violation of law punishable by extreme fines and jail time could be in the future of those who continue to casually violate the law. Broadcast flags and HDCP will transparently help the end consumer avoid those punishments by not allowing the crime to occur.

ROF, sheesh

I realize you are taking a debating posture, but doesn't the idea that a consumer needs to pay a middleman to avoid jail time or fines suggest that the distribution system is flawed and inefficient?

And if so, might a new compeditor (like TIVO, Lotus123, Honda) quickly take away the frustrated customers and leave the traditional industry in ruins?

[ROF]

I realize you are taking a debating posture, but doesn't the idea that a consumer needs to pay a middleman to avoid jail time or fines suggest that the distribution system is flawed and inefficient?

Are you speaking of the current system or the new system? The old system of distribution where you can record whatever you want, whereever you want, and as many times as you want is seriously flawed. The current protection systems are also extremely flawed as they offer little or no protection as is evident by the almost weekly "How do I back up Blah Blah New Movie" threads. The extreme nature of the digital information age has forced the distributors and broadcasters to take an added measure of protection. Their stockholders demand this. Protection of IP is near zero today and such flawed systems can not remain in place while still providing value to the stockholders and ultimately the artists.

And if so, might a new competitor (like TIVO, Lotus123, Honda) take away the customers and leave the traditional industry in ruins?

No. They will just become another link in the chain. The VCR took customers away from the traditional theater. DVD eroded this traditional industry even further. Change is good. I can't wait to see what the future of the traditional theater holds. There is some amazing tech out there just waiting to reach a mature enough state to become available in the distribution chain. Like I said, things change and change is good. New competitors usually means better pricing for the end consumer but it rarely if ever spells the complete demise of the industry as a whole.

[edDV]

And if so, might a new competitor (like TIVO, Lotus123, Honda) take away the customers and leave the traditional industry in ruins?

No. They will just become another link in the chain. The VCR took customers away from the traditional theater. DVD eroded this traditional industry even further. Change is good. I can't wait to see what the future of the traditional theater holds. There is some amazing tech out there just waiting to reach a mature enough state to become available in the distribution chain. Like I said, things change and change is good. New competitors usually means better pricing for the end consumer but it rarely if ever spells the complete demise of the industry as a whole.

They are providing product that needs to be consumed. Stockholders look at quarterly peformance vs last year. If the new scheme results in lost revenue and profits then the current management is replaced pronto and the problem is resolved.

Only private companies would possibly trade current market share for IP protection. The value of that IP portfolio depends entirely on it's ability to generate current and future revenue. Current is heavily weighted vs. "future".

Theaters today are mostly vertically integrated with movie distributors*. If alternative sources of distribution (e.g. Digtal Cinema DVD and satellite) become available, those digital multi-plex cinemas increase in value and will be quickly divested by new turnaround management and the old oligopoly-monopoly will be broken. This has already happened to the production side of Hollywood.

* except for Mark Cuban's Digital Landmark Theaters
http://www.landmarktheatres.com/AboutLandmak/AboutIndex.htm
http://www.indiewire.com/biz/biz_050316land.html
http://www.2929entertainment.com/Index.cfm?FuseAction=Page&PageID=1000011
http://www.2929entertainment.com/Index.cfm?FuseAction=Page&PageID=1000043

expect literally hundreds of similar companies to emerge.

[somebodeez]

The situation from a consumer's view point has been expressed several times in terms even he should've been able to understand.
He chooses to be deliberately obtuse.

Examples from history have been offered to him which at first he tried to debunk on the grounds that they're old and out of date and when that didn't work, he chose to ignore them altogether.

He tries to give the impression that he is a legal expert although obviously, he is not.

He has come up with a spin on this new scheme that hasn't fooled anybody and yet he keeps repeating it like it's gospel.

He chooses to ignore points that have been made. He refuses to answer certain questions that have been posed to him because he knows he can't without either losing brownie points or because to do so would defeat his purpose. (trolling? testing the waters for his employers? )

I'm done with his nonesense

[painkiller]

He?

He only gets to you because you (we) keep reading and posting, reading and posting ...........

Surely some of us have much better things to do.

[somebodeez]

He doesn't get to me. It was fun playing but you're right, I do have other things to do.

[pdemondo]

ROF MUST be a plant for the MPAA/RIAA. He is on a site that has
the purpose of helping people make FAIR USE backups of DVDs
they buy, YET he argues against such freedom.

[ROF]

They are providing product that needs to be consumed. Stockholders look at quarterly peformance vs last year. If the new scheme results in lost revenue and profits then the current management is replaced pronto and the problem is resolved.

Only private companies would possibly trade current market share for IP protection. The value of that IP portfolio depends entirely on it's ability to generate current and future revenue. Current is heavily weighted vs. "future".

Current is heavily weighted Vs. Future? I am sure glad most, if not all, people in the stock market disagree with that statement. I know my portfolio would be flat if I worked it based on current valuation.

As to the rest of your post, I assume it has something to do with this topic but I can't figure out what that is except maybe something about this future/current thing you are conjuring.

[ROF]

ROF MUST be a plant for the MPAA/RIAA. He is on a site that has
the purpose of helping people make FAIR USE backups of DVDs
they buy, YET he argues against such freedom.

Is that what this sites sole purpose is? I could have swore it was about helping people with video and only has an extremely small proportion of backup people here. Backing up media and media shifting is only legal in certain places, but is quite illegal in the US where some of the visitors, myself included, live.

[racerxnet]

ROF:

You were first explaining that the flag was about providing a better veiwing experience to the end user. Now it is for the benefit of the shareholder.

You are a chump trying to make a position on this forum which is all over the place. SHUT UP AND GO AWAY.

[ROF]

You were first explaining that the flag was about providing a better veiwing experience to the end user. Now it is for the benefit of the shareholder.

No. I said HDCP provides the better viewing experience by only allowing approved HD equipment to display the HD video. I also stated at that same time that it provides a more secure environment for the IP which shareholders make their earnings from.

It is you that has added nothing to the discussion other than snide personal remarks. Read the thread to see that I have never said the broadcast flag provides a better viewing experience. That was HDCP that I was discussing when it comes to a better viewing experience. The broadcast flag is intended to secure the IP and discontinue the casual law breaking that occurs in the marketplace today.

[rhegedus]

I said HDCP provides the better viewing experience by only allowing approved HD equipment to display the HD video.

Get this straight - HDCP does nothing for the 'viewing experience'. My eyes will appreciate HD video with or without HDCP.

Stop trying to sell something that no one here wants to buy

[ROF]

OK! But I'm not selling anything. Selling is not allowed on this site. I am merely pointing out that HDCP will not allow you to view HD content on an inferior screen. Are you telling me HDCP can be reverse engineered already today to allow display on inferior screens or the output recorded to inferior media? It will not allow conversion to a CRT Tube display. It will not allow casual copyright violations via media shifting. HDCP will ensure high quality by only allowing video to be displayed through an HDCP DVI display and won't allow the down converters in use by some today to display inferior quality of high quality recordings or recording high definition media to inferior media.

If you think you'll be able to view HDCP encoded Media on non-HDCP approved devices as I was originally hoping in this thread you are wrong. Only high quality HDCP approved devices will allow the video to be displayed.

[rhegedus]

OK! But I'm not selling anything. Selling is not allowed on this site. I am merely pointing out that HDCP will not allow you to view HD content on an inferior screen. Blah, blah, blah.....

I can't be arsed to read through 11 pages, but when did I or anyone else say that?

[racerxnet]

[It will not allow conversion to a CRT Tube display.]


Incorrect. I can display all HD media content on the Electrohome 9500LC which is CRT. The bandwidth is approximatlely 165 MHZ. The projector has 3 CRT tubes and is capable of 2500 x 2000 resolution. Inputs are RGB, Svideo, Composite, DVI, and several others.

[waheed]

I am merely pointing out that HDCP will not allow you to view HD content on an inferior screen. Are you telling me HDCP can be reverse engineered already today to allow display on inferior screens or the output recorded to inferior media...

ROF, you dont just get it. There are alot of HIGH RESOLUTION displays that are not HDCP. HDCP has nothing to do with viewing. Its just a copy protection scheme, PERIOD.

Just because a device is not HDCP compliant doesn't mean its not capable of displaying HD content. Get your facts straight. There are alot of screens that can output 1080i and 720P but aren't HDCP compliant.

HDCP will ensure high quality by only allowing video to be displayed through an HDCP DVI display...

Again, HDCP has nothing to do with quality. You can get HIGH QUALITY with or without HDCP.

HDCP IS ONLY A COPY PROTECTION, NOTHING MORE , NOTHING LESS, PERIOD

HDCP - High Bandwidth Digital CONTENT PROTECTION

I dont see anywhere anything related to quality in the terms HDCP.

[ROF]

[It will not allow conversion to a CRT Tube display.]


Incorrect. I can display all HD media content on the Electrohome 9500LC which is CRT. The bandwidth is approximatlely 165 MHZ. The projector has 3 CRT tubes and is capable of 2500 x 2000 resolution. Inputs are RGB, Svideo, Composite, DVI, and several others.

If the DVI is HDCP certified then Yes you will be capable of displaying it, however upon closer examination the 9500LC does not even have or support DVI Display capabilities. It is capable of HD only with an after market board for input only, but even that doesn't have a DVI interface. A nice projector BTW, but definitely not a wise investment for future proofing yourself in the video realm.

[ROF]

OK! But I'm not selling anything. Selling is not allowed on this site. I am merely pointing out that HDCP will not allow you to view HD content on an inferior screen. Blah, blah, blah.....

I can't be arsed to read through 11 pages, but when did I or anyone else say that?

No need to look back. You need only move up this page to where you told me to stop selling something. I am not selling anything, but again you seem to have lost track of the subject matter. HDCP will ensure you only use high definition displays and do not down convert the signal or pass-through the signal to non-HDCP device such as a VCR or DVD Recorder. It ensures the high quality display environment for the high definition video, while at the same time offering the protection of the intellectual property being displayed to ensure that everyone does not continue to casually violate the law by backing up this high definition content.

[ROF]

HDCP will ensure high quality by only allowing video to be displayed through an HDCP DVI display...

Again, HDCP has nothing to do with quality. You can get HIGH QUALITY with or without HDCP.

HDCP IS ONLY A COPY PROTECTION, NOTHING MORE , NOTHING LESS, PERIOD

HDCP - High Bandwidth Digital CONTENT PROTECTION

I dont see anywhere anything related to quality in the terms HDCP.

really? Can you down convert your current HD signal to allow recording upon a non-HD device such as a VCR? I know I can, so I can only assume others can as well. HDCP ensures that this can not occur, therefore it ensures the display and all interfaces in between the transmitter and receiver are HDCP capable and also that they are capable of displaying High definition content without degrading the signal. Nowhere have I stated that HD devices aren't capable of HD displays. That's just insanity. I've only stated that HDCP ensures that the signal is not passed to a CRT tube or other inferior device thus ensuring the highest quality display of the high definition content. As a bonus, it adds content protection to ensure that casual lawbreakers aren't jailed for something they are doing for which they had no idea was illegal. Go back a few pages in this thread or others on this site where some people really believe they have the right to archive TV shows and backup their media while living and performing these actions within the United States. Both are illegal here. HDCP will ensure these people understand the law by not allowing them to break it in the first place.

[racerxnet]

[however upon closer examination the 9500LC does not even have or support DVI Display capabilities]

Once agian ROF you are inncorrect on the DVI capabilities and the display spec of the Electrohome. I would know as I own one and display any HD content from my PC to the unit. It does have the DVI port counter to your claims. As for it being compliant , it does not matter. Output from Canopus Edius is HDDV content for the NLE editing industry. So your theory that a CRT display is inferior has been nulified. It is far beyond what you have for your display purposes at this time. As for future proofing, your concept is seriously flawed with little to no flexability down the road. Your set is from what I consider, to be static in the upgrade department and resolution specs. The Electrohome has been out for many years prior to the plasma with a better contrast ratio of 30,000 to 1, and resolution beyond HD specs. Your claims are bogus as you provide no anaylasis or specs to counter your position. It is a strawman arguement you have presented. There are several manufactures of boxes to bypass the flag at this time.

ROF how much experience in the video industry do you have?? It appears very little at best. What equiptment do you use daily?

Canopus Edius
Canopus DVRex
ProCoder
Premier Pro



# Highest image resolution
# Uncompromising reliability
# Accurate matching of images resulting in seamless displays
# Unique open architecture for future needs and growth
# The 8500, 8500LC and 9500LC are compatible with video sources, computers and graphics workstations up to 130 kHz

[painkiller]

http://www.digital-cp.com/home

HDCP is a specification developed by Intel Corporation to protect digital entertainment content across the DVI/HDMI interface. The HDCP specification provides a robust, cost-effective and transparent method for transmitting and receiving digital entertainment content to DVI/HDMI-compliant digital displays. The HDCP specification is available for download below. Implementation of HDCP requires a license, as described below.

Specification:

* HDCP Specification revision 1.1 (465k, PDF)
* Summary of Errata and Clarifications to the HDCP 1.1 Specification (220k, PDF)

[ROF]

@racerxnet

Where did you get your DVI Input board? Spec Sheet for 9500LC Does this spec sheet lie?

Even the after market input boards for this projection system don't include DVI, and your display is 1500 x 1200 with support up to 2500 x 2000 with additional after market cards to allow that display image. You are correct in that I am not a videophile in the true sense of the word, but I do understand spec sheets and when they do not state DVI as an input then DVI is not included. Can you show where your display device has this DVI interface?

Can you point to any manufacturers of broadcast flag bypass boxes? How about the real subject of this thread which is HDCP? Will your projector display HDCP High Definition content? So much for your future proofing concept and the strawman theory huh? HDCP or other content protection systems that rely on hardware or networked protection are the future. My display offers both, yours offers neither.

Edit: Here's a link to additional pics with a good display of the back of the projector and it's connectors. Can you identify the DVI port in the image because I can not see any?

Here's a link to your user's manual which again does not list or picture any DVI Inputs. There is also some good spec images of the inputs for the after market interface modules. None of which include a DVI Input? Where did you get DVI from? I'm sure there are others who might be interested in that interface.

@ Painkiller

and? We've already got 4 links to that topic already. Is there something more you wanted to add about the link and quote you provided which hasn't already been stated before in this thread?

[Cornucopia]

...(makes rotating motion with index finger next to head)...

Scott

[shelbyGT]

Is this really that big of an issue to deserve this many posts?

I guess it's just all over my head. I don't own a single HD thing anyway, so I'll step out. Interesting to see you all bicker back and forth, though.

[ROF]

Is this really that big of an issue to deserve this many posts?

I guess it's just all over my head. I don't own a single HD thing anyway, so I'll step out. Interesting to see you all bicker back and forth, though.

It's actually quite an important issue for anyone looking towards purchasing a new digital display. There maybe alot of sidetracks throughout the thread, but i would guess that to be the nature of most lengthy topics anyways.

Stick around, you may learn something. I know I've learned quite a few things especially since I came into this topic relatively blind except for knowing that HDCP and blocking of the high def signal to only those authorized devices is the future of HDTV.

[pdemondo]

ROF Wrote:
"Is that what this sites sole purpose is? I could have swore it was about helping people with video and only has an extremely small proportion of backup people here. Backing up media and media shifting is only legal in certain places, but is quite illegal in the US where some of the visitors, myself included, live. "


ROF, wrote this in an older post:

"I assume you've tried ripping using both drives. Although it's not recommended, I've found that ripping is quicker and more efficient when using a burner than just a DVD-Rom Drive. With the low pricetag on burners these days, even if it dies due to overuse, you can always replace it for less price than a package of media.

I'd definitely check your versions though. You may find an even newer version a day after upgrading. "

ROF,
So You are RIPPING? Now I understand, you can't resist breaking
the law so you want electronic controls to stop you!

[ROF]

ROF,
So You are RIPPING? Now I understand, you can't resist breaking
the law so you want electronic controls to stop you!

Not really, but I do help others accomplish their missions. I rip DVDs, but only when they refuse to continue to display properly. I throw out the badly damaged disc after I'm done, so I only have one copy. That is not a violation of the law.

[pdemondo]

ROF AGAIN ON AN EARLIER POST

"Home Box Office(HBO) would go out of business if the US Broadcasters decided to do something like this. I can't think of a single person that watched the Soprano's live. Most people I know either work, are busy doing other things, or watching another station while recording that show for later viewing. Alot of HBO Specials are like that for most folks.

What about the people who record Daytime Soap Operas to watch in the evening when they get home?

If this were true in the US, I'd imagine alot of cable TVs would go blank in the US as the outrageous bill at the end of the month from the cable company wouldn't be justified by the limited amount of shows you could watch live. "

So you say if HBO doesn't let us record programming, they will go out of business because customers demand it BUT if we don't let broadcasters prevent us from recording programming, they will not provide what
customers demand?
Well, which is it???


And NO! Ripping is Ripping! Why don't you contact the MPAA and
ask them if it is okay with them what you are doing? And if they
tell you it is not, will you stop? They want you to buy a new copy
if the old copy dies.

The content provider specifically does not want ANY copies made.
Why don't you afford them the control over their content that
you have argued in favor of these so many pages?

[adam]

I rip DVDs, but only when they refuse to continue to display properly. I throw out the badly damaged disc after I'm done, so I only have one copy. That is not a violation of the law.

Yes it is and actually its worse than making an archival copy and keeping the original. Even for those types of media that do allow archival copying (pc software and musical recordings) you are required to keep the original, damaged or not, in order to keep the copy.

[somebodeez]

AHaHaHaHaHa - sooooooo BUSTED!!!!