Are song writers the best poets???

[yoda313]

So do musicians make better poets then the real article?

I think some can be very poetic. Now a lot of the pop stuff is simplistic but still beautiful.

Thoughts???

[mrtristan]

A well written song is very similar to a poem to me, but I consider them to be different forms of art.

[lordsmurf]

Some of them yes.

I would consider some Metallica songs to be very deep. Some of the more recent Green Day makes pretty bold statements too.

[Epicurus8a]

ditto

Judging from the lyrics of many songs, the writers wouldn't survive if they were merely poets.

[lordsmurf]

I'm fond of these three:

Green Day - American Idiot

Don't wanna be an American idiot.
Don't want a nation under the new media.
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mindfuck America.

Welcome to a new kind of tension.
All across the alien nation.
Everything isn't meant to be okay.
Television dreams of tomorrow.
We're not the ones who're meant to follow.
Well that's enough to argue.

Well maybe I'm the ****** America.
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda.
Now everybody do the propaganda.
And sing along in the age of paranoia.

Welcome to a new kind of tension.
All across the alien nation.
Everything isn't meant to be okay.
Television dreams of tomorrow.
We're not the ones who're meant to follow.
Well that's enough to argue.

Don't wanna be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information nation of hysteria.
It's going out to idiot America.

Welcome to a new kind of tension.
All across the alien nation.
Everything isn't meant to be okay.
Television dreams of tomorrow.
We're not the ones who're meant to follow.

Metallica - Until It Sleeps

Where do I take this pain of mine
I run, but it stays right by my side
So tear me open, pour me out
There's things inside that scream and shout
And the pain still hates me
So hold me, until it sleeps

Just like the curse, just like the stray
You feed it once, and now it stays

So tear me open, but beware
There's things inside without a care
And the dirt still stains me
So wash me, until I'm clean

It grips you, so hold me
It stains you, so hold me
It hates you, so hold me
It holds you, so hold me

Until it sleeps ...

So tell me why you've chosen me
Don't want you grip, don't want your greed

I'll tear me open, make you gone
No more can you hurt anyone
And the fear still shakes me
So hold me, until it sleeps

It grips you, so hold me
It stains you, so hold me
It hates you, so hold me
It holds you, so hold me

Until it sleeps ...

I don't want it

So tear me open, but beware
The there's things inside without a care
And the dirt still stains me
So wash me, 'till I'm clean....

I'll tear me open, make you gone
No longer will you hurt anyone
And the fear still shapes me
So hold me, until it sleeps...

Until it sleeps....

Toby Keith - Angry American

American Girls and American Guys
We'll always stand up and salute
We'll always recognize
When we see Ole Glory Flying
There's a lot of men dead
So we can sleep in peace at night
When we lay down our head

My daddy served in the army
Where he lost his right eye
But he flew a flag out in our yard
Till the day that he died
He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me
To grow up and live happy
In the land of the free.

Now this nation that I love
Has fallen under attack
A mighty sucker punch came flying in
From somewhere in the back
Soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man, we lit up your world
Like the 4th of July

Hey Uncle Sam
Put your name at the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And there's gonna be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And it'll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Ahhh Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue

Ohhh Justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
And you'll be sorry that you messed with
The U.S. of A.
'Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way

Hey Uncle Sam
Put your name at the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And there's gonna be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And it'll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue

Uhhh Ohhh
Of the Red, White and Blue
Ohhh Ohh Oh
Of My Red, White and Blue

I really respect these three song writers. I only wish I could do as well.
Equally as much as I would poets like H.D. Thoreau or R.W. Emerson.

Some of the music videos that go with songs are equally as creative.
Great work to look at if you need to be inspired.

[anitract]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think that 99% of music "lyrics" when viewed alone outside of their respective song are complete and utter crap.

I mean, really, how can you compare EA Poe and Metallica? IMO, both can be equally dark and interesting...but from a poetry standpoint? No contest.

That said, there are layers of depth that the musical-side of music (that is, the melodies, instrumentation, etc.) add that poetry can never ever come close to. This is why I love music and creating it.

I guess it comes down to art vs. art, but in an apples vs. oranges kind of way. I dunno...*ramble ramble*

[Faustus]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think that 99% of music "lyrics" when viewed alone outside of their respective song are complete and utter crap.

No your quite correct.

Once a long time ago a friend was confused by my very erratic musical tatest and it lead to a discussion. He was confused as to what exactly attracted me to some artist. Is it the lyrics? Is it the music? He also didn't understand my general dislike at the time (this was mid 90sish) of Electronic music.

I could never make him understand that indeed it was a mix. If the lyrics are really good it can save the most simple song, and vice versa.

As for the electronic music of the time I found it to be in general to simplistic, a good song has a layering of "noise" that often you just didn't hear in the electronic music of the time. These days its gotten a bit better I will say.

Funny thing is I actually like dance music alot these days, it seems to have that right mix of lyrics (often making no sense what so ever) and music to keep my intrest. At the same time alot of "techo dudes" frown on electronic dance as cheesey or silly. Takes all kinds I guess.

On topic however, obviously there ARE some artist out there who lyricly sometimes hit upon genius. Usually its only for a song or 2, or maybe its not really the depth of the lyrics themselves but the feeling they create WITH the music that makes them feel deeper.

Strangely sometimes the truely great lyrics pop up in odd places. At times I've heard specific verses of marilyn manson that just blew in away with his ability to say something in very few words yet with so much implied decription. Or even a band like Slipknot which love them or hate them many of their songs lyricly are way above average. I'll give an example.

"Vermillion"

She seems dressed in all the rings
Of past fatalaties
So fragile yet so devious
She continues to see it
Climatic hands that press
Her temples and my chest
Enter the night that she came home
Forever

Oh (She's the only one that makes me sad)

She is everything and more
The solemn hypnotic
My Dahlia bathed in posession
She is home to me

I get nervous, perverse, when I see her it's worse
But the stress is astounding
It's now or never she's coming home
Forever

Oh (She's the only one that makes me sad)

Hard to say what caught my attention
Fixed And crazy, Aphid Attraction
Carve my name in my face, to recognize
Such a pheromone cult to terrorize

I won't let this build up inside of me
I won't let this build up inside of me
I won't let this build up inside of me
I won't let this build up inside of me

(Yeah!)

I'm a slave, and I am a master
No restraints and, unchecked collectors
I exist through my need, to self ablige
She is something in me, that I despise

I won't let this build up inside of me
I won't let this build up inside of me
I won't let this build up inside of me
I won't let this build up inside of me

I won't let this build up inside of me
I won't let this build up inside of me
I won't let this build up inside of me
I won't let this build up inside of me

SHE ISN'T REAL!
I CAN'T MAKE HER REAL!
SHE ISN'T REAL!
I CAN'T MAKE HER REAL!

(She isn't real, I can't make her real)
(She isn't real, I can't make her real)

One last great example would be alot of A Perfect Circles lyrics. Very genius but then I'd expect nothing different given who is involved with the band.

Sleeping Beauty:


Delusional
I believe I can cure it all for you, dear
Coax or trick or drive or
drag the demons from you
Make it right for you sleeping beauty
Truly thought
I can magically heal you

You're far beyond a visible sign of your awakening
Failing miserably to rescue

Sleeping Beauty

Drunk on ego
Truly thought I could make it right
If I kissed you one more time to
Help you face the nightmare
But you're far too poisoned for me
Such a fool to think that I can wake you from your slumber
That I could actually heal you..

Sleeping Beauty
Poisoned and hopeless
You're far beyond a visible sign of your awakening
Failing miserably to find a way to comfort you

Far beyond a visible sign of your awakening
And hiding from some poisoned memory

Poisoned and hopeless
Sleeping Beauty

[MackemX]

everyone will know this one so it needs no introduction

Oompa Loompa doompadee doo
I've got another puzzle for you
Oompa Loompa doompadah dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

What do you get from a glut of TV?
A pain in the neck and an IQ of three
Why don't you try simply reading a book?
Or could you just not bear to look?

You'll get no
You'll get no
You'll get no
You'll get no
You'll get no commercials

Oompa Loompa Doompadee Dah
If you're not greedy you will go far
You will live in happiness too
Like the Oompa
Oompa Loompa doompadee do

[glockjs]

Venga Boys-Venga Bus

We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party

I've got something to tell ya
I've got news for you
Gonna put some wheels in motion
Get ready 'cause we're coming through
Hey now, hey now, here's what I say now
Happiness is just around the corner
Hey now, hey now, here's what I say now
We'll be there for you

The Vengabus is coming
And everybody's jumping
New York to San Fransisco
An intercity disco
The wheels of steel are turning
And traffic lights are burning
So if you like to party
Get on and move your body

We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party
We like, we like to party

Hey now, hey now, here's what I say now
Happiness is just around the corner
Hey now, hey now, here's what I say now
We'll be there for you

The Vengabus is coming
And everybody's jumping
New York to San Fransisco
An intercity disco
The wheels of steel are turning
And traffic lights are burning
So if you like to party
Get on and move your body

The Vengabus is coming
And everybody's jumping
New York to San Fransisco
An intercity disco
The wheels of steel are turning
And traffic lights are burning
So if you like to party
Get on and move your body

We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party
We like, we like to party

The Vengabus is coming, the Vengabus is coming
The Vengabus is coming, the Vengabus is..

The Vengabus is coming
And everybody's jumping
New York to San Fransisco
An intercity disco
The wheels of steel are turning
And traffic lights are burning
So if you like to party
Get on and move your body

The Vengabus is coming
And everybody's jumping
New York to San Fransisco
An intercity disco
The wheels of steel are turning
And traffic lights are burning
So if you like to party
Get on and move your body

The Vengabus is coming

[MackemX]

Venga Boys-Venga Bus

that's a pretty serious song isn't it?

[glockjs]

Venga Boys-Venga Bus

that's a pretty serious song isn't it?

hell yeah. that song touched me the very first time i heard it

[yoda313]

Interesting statements. Yeah I agree poets and songwriters are different genres but both try to hit on the same groove.

[mrtristan]

I was giving it more thought and I tend to agree with anitract. Lyrics are meant to be with a song and many of them wouldn't stand alone. Not so much because they're subpar, but because they were written to fit a melody.

[JohnnyCNote]

There are lyrics to a song:

The Wages of Sin

The Wages of Sin are paid by the hour
In peccant obedience his minions cower
They signed Contracts in sanguine ink
Their souls were bought; they do not think

At Satan’s behest they will execute
His every command while remaining mute
They never complain or threaten to strike
They do not discern between wrong and right

The Wages of Sin are not exempt
They are heavily Taxed and reflect the contempt
That Their earners display towards the ones who earn less
For they worship a god whose name you can guess

The seek to finance the means of destruction
Of both themselves and their world by construction
Of Invincible Force no Fool can resist
If you follow Their ways, you will cease to exist

[Noahtuck]

Some of them yes.

I would consider some Metallica songs to be very deep. Some of the more recent Green Day makes pretty bold statements too.

I seem to remember you dogging "Staind" and you are saying some "Metallica" song's are deep ?? the "we are out for as much money as we can get" and then doing a 180 they are SUCH sellouts and don't even compare to "staind" 8) although i am a big green day fan & i agree with most that you say... the metallica idea is
:P

I used to be a big metallica fan, back in the day of their first 3 albums... after about 5 i think they let themselves (Lar's Ulrich, the mouth) go to their heads 8)

[lordsmurf]

James Hetfield is a really good writer. His writing can vary from tripe, to deep and meaningful/clever, to outright fun and witty. He's one of those guys that doesn't have to try to write lyrics, it just comes to him naturally. I actually find songs he didn't write himself are the ones that are lesser than others.

A great many bands out there really "try" to write lyrics, and it falls apart. Without the music (and sometimes even with), it's pure crap. But I can think of any number of poets that wrote crap too. Poetry is not something you can try or train yourself to do, it just comes naturally. The most you can do is learn vocabulary and grammar/spelling, the rest is out of your control. This is an art, not a skill or science.

Staind is one of those new age bands that just completely lacks talent in both writing and music department.

Another thing I observe is poets and songwriters in their teens and 20's don't know shit. You haven't lived long enough to tell too many stories. So new bands almost always have that against them, although it need be noted that's why stupid kids often worship the crap. What they are usually able to muster up is very juvenile and constrived at best.

I think that whole "Metallica sold out" thing is retarded. They cut their hair, get over it. Have you ever had long hair? It's hot, it's a pain to manage, and after a while, it really turns into an aggravation. I don't know how women can do that year in and year out. As far as music goes, what they're doing now is just as musically correct (their songs have quite a bit of properly applied music theory) and "hard" as it ever was. Maybe even moreso now than it used to be. People gripe about Lars a lot, but I can understand him attacking Napster (the source of almost all anti-Lars blathering). I would be pissed off too if a pre-version of my art was being used (Napster was helping to distribute a leaked and incomplete version of "I Disappear" at the time). When it comes to anti-Metallica sentiments from former fans, I think most of it is misdirected and lacks a common sense approach to seeing the issues at play. And I think it's hilarious that the band members can have a "so what" attitude because they made a lot of money already and don't need to kiss up to the whiney anti-fans (which clearly serves only to further anger the anti-fans .. but again, funny!).

[adam]

Well arguing about what music is good or bad is pretty impossible, but I'm seriously cringing a bit at Toby Keith being called a poet. He's the most retarded gimmicky "artist" I've ever seen...and that's saying alot with the way country music is these days.

I wanna talk about me I wanna talk about I, I wanna talk about number one oh my me my...

His best work is easily his Ford Truck commercial.

[lordsmurf]

Well arguing about what music is good or bad is pretty impossible, but I'm seriously cringing a bit at Toby Keith being called a poet. He's the most retarded gimmicky "artist" I've ever seen...and that's saying alot with the way country music is these days.

I wanna talk about me I wanna talk about I, I wanna talk about number one oh my me my...

His best work is easily his Ford Truck commercial.

For the record, Angry American is the only one I care for.

Those other ones of his are "knob turners" for sure. (as in radio knobs to change the station!)

[Faustus]

I think that whole "Metallica sold out" thing is retarded. They cut their hair, get over it. Have you ever had long hair? It's hot, it's a pain to manage, and after a while, it really turns into an aggravation. I don't know how women can do that year in and year out. As far as music goes, what they're doing now is just as musically correct (their songs have quite a bit of properly applied music theory) and "hard" as it ever was.

this statement is 100% correct in one way only. Long hair IS hot. But Metallica does suck. I'm not gonna say they sold out, there is no such thing. But they did shift their music in a way that they had to KNOW would anger many of their fans and they did it because they wanted more money then they already had. I think what metallica releases these days I wouldn't hate half as much if it was coming from another band, but I doubt I'd ever like it. Until it sleeps was like the theme song to their doom, the moment that song was released early on a "CD Single" and I had a listen I just knew there was a problem.

So yay for Metal Lick, they got their big concerts, and pissed on their longtime fans to get it. Hope they enjoy their money, cause they'll never get another cent from me.

[Jester700]

Wow. I don't get that. Bands don't OWE fans anything. You bought a CD? Great. For $15 you can enjoy it forever. You bought a concert ticket? Great, you probably paid too much but you knew the cost going in.

HOW does a band piss on its fans? I mean, if you don't like a band's new direction, don't effing buy the stuff! I will usually buy a new CD I haven't heard out of loyalty, but if it sucks, I won't buy any more until hearing first. How does this rip me off as a consumer? People change, get over it. I would be surprised indeed if a 40 year old man was writing the same stuff he was writing at 20.

I liked LIGHTNING. I liked LOAD. I've changed a bit and stopped buying Metallica since then (I think my last CD was a Martina McBride), but I'd never say it wasn't their prerogative to release whatever they want.

[Faustus]

Wow. I don't get that. Bands don't OWE fans anything. You bought a CD? Great. For $15 you can enjoy it forever. You bought a concert ticket? Great, you probably paid too much but you knew the cost going in.

HOW does a band piss on its fans? I mean, if you don't like a band's new direction, don't effing buy the stuff! I will usually buy a new CD I haven't heard out of loyalty, but if it sucks, I won't buy any more until hearing first. How does this rip me off as a consumer? People change, get over it. I would be surprised indeed if a 40 year old man was writing the same stuff he was writing at 20.

I liked LIGHTNING. I liked LOAD. I've changed a bit and stopped buying Metallica since then (I think my last CD was a Martina McBride), but I'd never say it wasn't their prerogative to release whatever they want.

They don't OWE me anything, not now for sure. How does a band piss off its fans? Look to Metallica for the perfect example, they take their music and water it down for the masses to cashin. thats one way.

[lordsmurf]

I don't agree with that.

If you want "sold out" then find the bands and singers that don't write their own music, don't manage any aspect of the field they're in (recording, concerts, whatever), and even lipsync at times. Those are the face of corporate money-only operations, usually lacking art in any degree. It's all about money and fame, there is no musical/art drive there to be had. Look at rap, pop (Britney Spears, Simpson sisters), and even some country these days.

Rock bands still do everything on their own, for the most part. Nothing "sold out" about that. Although some of the newer bands just lack talent. But at least they tried on their accord, with their own skills.

[Faustus]

Sold out isn't a term I would use. I draw the line of the difference between cashing in and selling out. All bands have sold out. Metallica made a decision to change their music based upon the ammount of money they could draw in. Its that simple.

They decided that would rather live high as a "nu metal kings" then continue making real metal music.

[Jester700]

Have they said that was the reason they changed style, or is that an assumption? MANY good bands changed with the times. Queen changed styles like underwear (or in Freddie's case, panties ) but IMO they were good for the whole run, from II through INNUENDO.

And what's "real metal"? IMO some of the earlier stuff was drawn out & overlong - too much mindless chugging. And JUSTICE sounded like hell - too dry and no bass.

In any case, there's risk when you attempt to change or increase fan base, so I doubt they'd do it unless that's the musical direction they wanted to go in anyway. IF that's true, wouldn't NOT changing to satisfy a known fan base be JUST as "cashing in"?

[lordsmurf]

Metallica has stated at least once that they actually admire what Dave Mustaine did with Megadeth, and that has to some degree guided them in recent times, especially with St. Anger. Mustaine was not afraid of adapting his style and trying new things, and as a benefit, his fanbase increased, as people liked what he was doing (I sure did!). And it's really worked out well for him.

They are true artists in the sense that they want to experiment and try new techniques. To bring in new theory and concepts. That's what an artist does.

I would have to agree with Jester. By NOT following their own artistic desires, and merely "given the fans what they wanted" they'd have written a bunch of tripe to cash in real quick.

But that's not what Metallica wanted. They wanted to take risks, and much of this is even described in songs in years past.

Not to mention bands that cannot adapt die.

[Noahtuck]

Staind is one of those new age bands that just completely lacks talent in both writing and music department.

Are your eye's brown ??
Now, i have agreed with you on most subjects... but you are SOOOOooo full of $#*! on that one

I think that whole "Metallica sold out" thing is retarded. They cut their hair, get over it.

And cutting their hair... had nothing to do with it... that statment alone sounds like something one of the mass drones would say after watching some metallica documentary

Have you ever had long hair?

As a matter of fact... i have had hair PAST my shoulder blades since i was in 7th grade!!! and i am now, let's say, late 30's at best and STILL have hair past my shoulder's, including my bangs!!!
And try riding a bike (and i don't mean some 10 speed) through the 95+ degree heat on a daily basis wearing a hemet 8)

But the hair thing... that's a total joke!!!!!!!!!!!!! the fact they are full of shit and sellout's has not a G*&DAMN thing to do with cuting their hair
More to the fact, all they cared about was getting on top and making as much $$$$ as they could!!!!!!!! = NO SOUL!!!!!!!!

(lar's going in front of congress bitching about napster, then what... a year later doing a 180 about filesharing helping artist's become known and increasing cd sale's

The best thing they ever did was kick out Dave Mustaine from the band!!!!
Otherwise there would not be Megadeth!!!!!!!!!!!

And if you want to go into who sold more albums, or who made more money... well, the fact that Madonna and Michael Jackson both made more money just goes to prove that just because someone ends up more famous and with more $$$ does not mean they are a better artist, composer, poet, ect. just proves the mass public are morons LOL!!!

Like i said before... i used to be a big metallica fan in the early days... but... they just got to be too full of shit!!!!!!!!! and only about themselves and what they could get.... but maybe that was what they were really about from the start.....

I can disagree with ya on a couple of things... but overall, i have agreed with you on the vast majority of topics 8)

Sold out isn't a term I would use. I draw the line of the difference between cashing in and selling out. All bands have sold out. Metallica made a decision to change their music based upon the ammount of money they could draw in. Its that simple.

They decided that would rather live high as a "nu metal kings" then continue making real metal music.

You just said you would not use the term they "sold out" and yet made a GREAT arguement to HOW they sold out!!!!!!!!

Yeah,

They decided that would rather live high as a "nu metal kings" then continue making real metal music.

SOLD OUT!!!!!!!!

Hope they enjoy their money, cause they'll never get another cent from me.

GD straight!!!!!!!!!!! if i could get the same $$$ for the cd's i do own of theirs... they would be gone in a second!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i stopped buying their cd's at the "Black album... and i have wondered for years why the hell i even spent $$ on their cd's after "master of puppets"

How does a band piss off its fans? Look to Metallica for the perfect example, they take their music and water it down for the masses to cashin. thats one way.

Have they said that was the reason they changed style, or is that an assumption?

Well, to bring up the topic of "documentary" that LS kind of started, Jason Newsted once stated in a clip that yeah, they sold out... they sold out every arena they played was pretty clear they were only thinking about the $$$$$ huh... and funny how he left the band how long ago

And the rest about many good bands changed with the times... NOT!!!! the true talent stayed in the same genre... they were true to their art, what they were, their vision.... that would be like saying Pink Floyd changed with the times

[Noahtuck]

They are true artists in the sense that they want to experiment and try new techniques. To bring in new theory and concepts. That's what an artist does.

There is a BIG gap between "artist's" and "musicians"!!!
metallica are Musicians....
Pink Floyd were Artist's 8)
When they were all together. the original minds working together!!!

Hey look. A retarded thread being locked.

Just like the old days.

See, that right there is one of the million things i love you for 8)

[lordsmurf]

There is a BIG gap between "artist's" and "musicians"!!!

Webster disagrees with you:
musician (n) : artist who composes or conducts music as a profession

:P

[Noahtuck]

There is a BIG gap between "artist's" and "musicians"!!!

Webster disagrees with you:
musician (n) : artist who composes or conducts music as a profession

:P

So that mean's by websters defanition, you consider maddona and MJ artist's 8)

Webster 8) Thats like saying the 6 year old in 1st grade who did a finger painting is an artist that is on the same level as Van Gough or leonardo da vinci 8)
Don't webster me bro!!!!!!!!! you know what i mean :P
Keep this shit up and i'm gonna come over there and put stick on labels on ALL of your dvdr's!!!!!!!!


Look what you went and started yoda313!!!!!!!!!!!!!


























Nah!!!! i'm just messing with you my fellow michigander :P

[lordsmurf]

I don't really consider Madonna and MJ artists or musicians. They're "entertainers" and nothing more. They do not strive to create art, they only care to entertain (because it pays $$$$$$$'s).