OMG Why Does This Cost So Much!!

[gotenks98]

I have been looking for a good way to backup my dvd collection but the cost of dual layer media is too expensive right now. It is almost as much as me buying another copy of the movie instead. I have had ok results using the single layer with a shrinking program but you can not always do this with every movie. I was looking for a good fool proof method and dual layer is it but it just costs so much. It is not like the cost of making the media is that much higher than the single layer, so why does it cost so much more? Do you guys have any links to buy dual layer media at a reasonable cost?

[edDV]

Stop buying DVDs and rent. How many times can one watch a DVD anyway (excluding toddlers).

[canadateck]

Just have to wait for the price to come down.

[manono]

You can split the commercial DVD over 2 DVDRs untouched. You can remove unwanted extras, audio streams, logos, warnings and other garbage, and then shrink. You can stop using crap 1-click transcoders and learn to use a real encoder for better quality backups.

[Cornucopia]

I have been looking for a good way to backup my dvd collection but the cost of dual layer media is too expensive right now. It is almost as much as me buying another copy of the movie instead. I have had ok results using the single layer with a shrinking program but you can not always do this with every movie. I was looking for a good fool proof method and dual layer is it but it just costs so much. It is not like the cost of making the media is that much higher than the single layer, so why does it cost so much more? Do you guys have any links to buy dual layer media at a reasonable cost?

How do you know the cost of making the media isn't higher? Could be alot more complicated. Remember, the process of making Stamped discs isn't the same as the process of making Recordable/Rewriteable media.

Now, if DL media ever got to the point where it was:
1. as easy to make as SL
2. as compatible with players as SL
3. as straightforward to burners (and their software) as SL
4. as cheap to make DL burners as to make SL burners
5. people had persistent need to always burn >4.7GB, but <8.6GB

...then there would start to be a strong reason to always buy DL media over SL media. And then the price would come down to, say 1.6x SL media.

Before that ever happens, I expect blue-laser drives/media to get more popular. Who knows what will happen then...

You've already had a number of good answers.

Scott

[888888]

Dual layer is retarded and ALWAYS will be. It's not cost-effective to manufacture. Case closed.

[Bodysurf]

I have been looking for a good way to backup my dvd collection but the cost of dual layer media is too expensive right now. It is almost as much as me buying another copy of the movie instead.

True, and that fact pleases the MPAA to no end.

I have had ok results using the single layer with a shrinking program but you can not always do this with every movie.

So "single layer" the movies that you can, and dual-layer the rest.

Most movies -- if you just grab the main movie, strip out all but the one audio stream you really need, and run it through DVDShrink (in Deep Analysis) or Nero Recode -- come out pretty darn good unless you are anal. The ones that don't, could be run through DVDRebuilder. And those that only look good in their original format could be places on DVD+R-DL media.

You could also rip the movies to XviD and play them on a XviD-compatible player (such as the Philips DVP642).

I was looking for a good fool proof method and dual layer is it but it just costs so much. It is not like the cost of making the media is that much higher than the single layer, so why does it cost so much more?

How do you know this?

Do you guys have any links to buy dual layer media at a reasonable cost?

How much are you paying right now? And what is "reasonable"?

If you think reasonable is the twice the cost of high-quality single layer DVD+R media, then you are deluded.

[noki]

Dual layer is retarded and ALWAYS will be. It's not cost-effective to manufacture.

YES. Plus the compatibility (or should I say INcompatibility) issue. BTW cost per DL-DVDR is now about $2 each.

[handyguy]

Even if you could do it on DL, that doesn't mean your player would play it.

[scubasteve2365]

If found the long movies (Titantic, Green Mile, Patriot ect) work out just fine being split on two disc with no loss in quality.

At 3 hours in length, a break at 1.5 hours to stick disc 2 in, isnt that bad at all.

Shorter movies, when extras, and un-needed audio streams are dumped, can easily fit on a single DVDr with little to no loss in quality. People tend to believe quality loss to be directly related with percentage compression. 10% loss due to size, does not equal 10% loss in quality.

I have a 138" front projection system, and I notice no bad quality in 99% if my backups. The few that I have noticed, where from the first ones I did, and I didnt know how to back up in a good way, and had heavy compression

[Tom Lewandowski]

YES. Plus the compatibility (or should I say INcompatibility) issue. BTW cost per DL-DVDR is now about $2 each.

Where can you find DL DVD-R for $2? What brand?

[BSpielbauer]

… but the cost of dual layer media is too expensive right now. It is almost as much as me buying another copy of the movie instead.

YES. Plus the compatibility (or should I say INcompatibility) issue. BTW cost per DL-DVDR is now about $2 each.

Where can you find DL DVD-R for $2? What brand?

How do you know the cost of making the media isn't higher? Could be alot more complicated.

Dual layer is retarded and ALWAYS will be. It's not cost-effective to manufacture. Case closed.

Wow, a lot of exaggeration and misinformation is being tossed about in this thread.

A LOT.

Yes, the cost of dual layer discs is still high. But, "high" is a relative term. Is it “almost as much as me buying another copy of the movie instead”? Certainly not.

Is it “about $2 per disc”? certainly not. That is certainly not a "typical" price. However, they can now be purchased for very, very close to that mark, on occasion. Not TYPICALLY. On OCCASION.

I just bought one batch of Verbatims at slightly less than $3 per disc during a recent sale (Staples, much discussed on the various forums). They can now routinely be bought for $2.99 to 3.99 on-line, from the usual vendors (Supermediastore and Meritline). I also just bought a 20 pack of dual layer PRINTABLE dual layer discs, and these are also the Verbatims. There is a 10% discount, and a $40 rebate, and this brings the final cost to $2.99 per disc. For printables. For Verbatim.

So, no, they do not cost anywhere near the price of another copy of a movie.

And, they have not yet truly broken the $2.00 margin (although they are very close). Thus, to claim that the “cost per DL-DVDR is now about $2 each” is also more of the same – hyperbole.


The fact is that these discs are dropping, and will continue to drop. I recall when they were $13.99 per disc, about 16 months ago. I also recall buying my first experimental dual layer disc months later for $7.99 per disc. I also recall when they broke the $6.99 mark, and then the 4.99 mark. Thus, to state categorically that “Dual layer is retarded and ALWAYS will be. It's not cost-effective to manufacture. Case closed.” Is the ultimate in nonsense. Just as the first single layer discs were targeted for the early-adopters who were willing to spend, and were initially trying to recoup the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on research and development, so, too, is the fate of the dual layer disc. This is true of almost every “new” technology that hits the market.

“Case closed” is so often the phrase which is used when the opposite is the truth.

(By the way, there are people here who spent as much as $9.99 for their first single layer blank DVD. That is not hyperbole. It is a fact. I am guilty.)

Dual layer discs will break the $1.00 price barrier. I fully expect they will “bottom out” at a final price which is only very slightly higher than single layer discs are, at some date in the future. Of course, single layer discs will also be just a bit less than they are now, at that date in the future. And, by that time, we will be seeing the same sorts of misguided rants about “those damn new Blu Ray discs” and “those over-priced HD-DVD blanks!”

Finally, a few brief notes:

Now, if DL media ever got to the point where it was:
1. as easy to make as SL

It is just as easy. However, the manufacturers need to pay for the initial re-tooling of the plants, and the earlier r & d, which cost them a lot of salaries and high expenses in testing, and re-testing.

2. as compatible with players as SL

It will be, of course, as each new DVD player which is sold tends to be able to handle these discs. This is no different than the issue of whether your player can handle DVD-Rs, or DVD+Rs, or DVD-RWs, or DVD+RWs, or MPEG, or DIVX. I have six DVD players in my house (if one counts the one in the mini-van). Only two cannot handle the DVD+R dual layer format. Only one can handle the DVD-R dual layer format, of course. It (the format) is simply too new.

3. as straightforward to burners (and their software) as SL

It is, once the software has been adjusted, and the firmware has been updated. Almost every burner sold now can handle these. And, I have now burned 31 dual layer discs, without a single coaster.

Early on, many of the programs did not have the kinks worked out (especially with the layer change). The best known example was (of course) Nero. They have all fixed these, in all cases I know of.

4. as cheap to make DL burners as to make SL burners

It is. Now that the r and d is done, and the minor re-tooling of the factories has been done. In fact, it is getting tough to buy a burner today that does not have the capability of also burning dual layer discs, at least of the DVD+R variety.

5. people had persistent need to always burn >4.7GB, but <8.6GB

They do, since the overwhelming majority of new DVD releases are on DVD-9 discs, and people are buying larger television displays, and people can now readily see the picture problems when too much compression is used. What looks fine on that 27 inch set upstairs looks awful on that new 50 inch plasma, or on that 65 inch DLP, or on that 96 inch Stewart Firehawk screen with the Runco projector. We left VHS behind for a reason. And, all sales reports show that, when it comes to today's TV purchases, we are buying "high def," and we are buying “thinner,” and we are buying “much, much bigger.”

Just my thoughts,

-Bruce

[Alan69]

Yes, agreed tons of bad info. But a little bit off on one or two points too on yours..

'Typical' is meaningless. DL is $2 or a little less now, if you bother to use the net to your advantage. If not, you have no one to blame for paying extra but yourself, no doubt you can still find 1x DVD-R for $5 each somewhere too.

The QUOTER modified that to DL DVD-R too, which is not as widespread yet and are a bit more. The original said DL-DVDR, which the +R DL qualifies as. Don't modify what was said to wrongly make points (to the other quoter not you B..)


They may not be $2 every day of the week at every store. But some are on sale somewhere at $2 each at least every other week or so already. If someone wants to pay more to get them local or right now instead of next week, that's fine and will cost more. But that doesn't invalidate that you can easily get DL discs for $2 on a regular basis. $1.66 or so is the lowest I've seen lately, like last week. I expect $1 at least for Christmas, maybe even Thanksgiving. Plan ahead and buy a good amount then, in case it takes a bit longer for them to really settle into $1 or less pricing.

Just got 5 free too with my new Liteon from Newegg, all of $41.99 shipped.. Ritek though but at least something to try it out some more for now. 0 (really it added $4 shipping instead of free for just the drive, so say $.80 each) is a good price.

Alan

[lordsmurf]

I can confirm DVD+R DL media is available about once a month for $2-3 per disc. And then you can indeed find 1x SL DVD-R media for about $5 per disc at some places. Shop smart.

However, I fail to see the need to "backup every disc" in a collection. I have made a backup of a few rather rare DVDs, a few expensive ones, and then a number of bad presses (the copies work better than the originals). To me this is sensible. "Backing up" every disc in your collection I find to either be foolish or a lie (meaning you're really "backing up" the local rental store). I can also see the need for those allowing careless people to handle their discs (roommates, children, the elderly, etc), but that surely would still not require a need for every disc to have a backup.

It need also be mentioned that DVD burning technology was not created for people that want to copy discs. It was created as a cheaper method to create discs in smaller quantities. Content creation, small studios, etc. Not to reproduce discs that already exist (although this is certainly a nifty advantage).

[ROF]

Buy DL discs in bulk to achieve big savings. A typical 10 pack right now will cost about $30, a 25 pack will run you about $50, while a 50 pack will run you about $90. The key here is to never buy them in those 3 packs for $20 because that's outrageous. As the holidays approach and DL Drives begin to appear on sale, media will also become reasonable.

Another hint, read the packaging. You may pick up a 10 pack of DL media only to realize that it's 1 DL disc and 9 SL discs. You can buy cheap media. Certainly much cheaper than the $10-$30 we pay for DVD movies, but you need to shop around and buy in bulk packs.

[drjtech]

(By the way, there are people here who spent as much as $9.99 for their first single layer blank DVD. That is not hyperbole. It is a fact. I am guilty.)

I paid more than that for 1X CD-Rs back in the day. I still have an unopened three pack of Maxell CD-R's with a $35 price tag.

-drj

[TBoneit]

YES. Plus the compatibility (or should I say INcompatibility) issue. BTW cost per DL-DVDR is now about $2 each.

Where can you find DL DVD-R for $2? What brand?

FWIW Best buy has the Memorex +R DLs at 29.99 for a spindle of 15 until closing time saturday.

OTOH They are Memorex MIT = Ritek.

I find that going over approx 7 to 7.5 gigs on a disk makes it 50/50 whether it'll work or have data errors after the layer change. I also found that my Pioneer 109 doesn't work as well with them as a Lite-On 1633S.

With the Lite-on drive if they pass verify they work ok in a Pioneer 531H dvd recorder and a 400 disc Sony changer for me. I haven't tried them in my 2 Apex DVD Players a old single disk model and a 3 disc changer.

Having them be unreliable oast approx 7gigs makes a mockery of their 8.5 gig size labeling. Hmmm.. Wonder if the duds are returnable? Nah probably not. They can just claim user problem. I may try getting ahold of memorex tho...

Cheers

[Cornucopia]

Now, if DL media ever got to the point where it was:
1. as easy to make as SL

It is just as easy. However, the manufacturers need to pay for the initial re-tooling of the plants, and the earlier r & d, which cost them a lot of salaries and high expenses in testing, and re-testing.

2. as compatible with players as SL

It will be, of course, as each new DVD player which is sold tends to be able to handle these discs. This is no different than the issue of whether your player can handle DVD-Rs, or DVD+Rs, or DVD-RWs, or DVD+RWs, or MPEG, or DIVX. I have six DVD players in my house (if one counts the one in the mini-van). Only two cannot handle the DVD+R dual layer format. Only one can handle the DVD-R dual layer format, of course. It (the format) is simply too new.

3. as straightforward to burners (and their software) as SL

It is, once the software has been adjusted, and the firmware has been updated. Almost every burner sold now can handle these. And, I have now burned 31 dual layer discs, without a single coaster.

Early on, many of the programs did not have the kinks worked out (especially with the layer change). The best known example was (of course) Nero. They have all fixed these, in all cases I know of.

4. as cheap to make DL burners as to make SL burners

It is. Now that the r and d is done, and the minor re-tooling of the factories has been done. In fact, it is getting tough to buy a burner today that does not have the capability of also burning dual layer discs, at least of the DVD+R variety.

5. people had persistent need to always burn >4.7GB, but <8.6GB

They do, since the overwhelming majority of new DVD releases are on DVD-9 discs, and people are buying larger television displays, and people can now readily see the picture problems when too much compression is used. What looks fine on that 27 inch set upstairs looks awful on that new 50 inch plasma, or on that 65 inch DLP, or on that 96 inch Stewart Firehawk screen with the Runco projector. We left VHS behind for a reason. And, all sales reports show that, when it comes to today's TV purchases, we are buying "high def," and we are buying “thinner,” and we are buying “much, much bigger.”

Just my thoughts,

-Bruce

1. It is NOT just as easy. There are additional sputtering/polishing/glueing passes, etc. which always makes the yield lower than with SL discs (assuming good quality control). Lower yield = Higher cost per disc. Even if the cost goes down, there will ALWAYS be a price differential with SL discs. Also, that capital investment is going to be recouped in the cost of the DL discs, not the SL's, so until the ROI is finished, think of it as a DL-luxury tax.

2. Your statement that they'll get more compatible as people get newer players assumes that people will keep gobbling up newer and newer players every year. That won't happen either. There has been a huge ramp-up of player purchasing, but that will level off alot once everybody has one. Yes, there will be broken players that need to get replaced, but that won't be most people. So then you're back to older players with compatibility problems.

3. Once again, you are assuming people will easily throw away what they've already invested money in just to get DL capability. Won't happen that way either.

4. I'll grant you that one...

5. Sure John Doe wants to back up his DL hollywood movies, but unless he's a video-lovin' geek like us folks here, he's going to be stuck when it gets to backing up his "copy protected" movies. And guess who is going to keep on spreading the FUD that it's not possible? MPAA, etc. So then you're back to people who have data to back up, or people with home movies. Data backup can be split on SL discs just as easily as DL discs (just more of 'em). So I don't see the need--soon/yet. And that's what my point was in the 1st place.

DL prices will come down and be more compatible and make their common use plausable, but by the time that happens it will probably be moot. (Blu-ray/HDDVD)

Scott

[oldfart13]

So, how is this worth it me buying from the net and living in Canada and over 250 miles from any of the online retailers? The shipping alone outta Toronto will kill any savings I make in the initial cost. $15CAD for a 3 pack of disks with $10 shipping. I can buy them at Staples for the same price and not have to wait a week to get them. I buy from the US, then I have to wait for things to clear Customs and I have to pay extra for shipping from there. I'm better off waiting for sales from stores in town...

[ROF]

So, how is this worth it me buying from the net and living in Canada and over 250 miles from any of the online retailers? The shipping alone outta Toronto will kill any savings I make in the initial cost. $15CAD for a 3 pack of disks with $10 shipping. I can buy them at Staples for the same price and not have to wait a week to get them. I buy from the US, then I have to wait for things to clear Customs and I have to pay extra for shipping from there. I'm better off waiting for sales from stores in town...

If you have a local staples, talk to the manager and ask about possibly ordering larger bulk quantities. The staples store near our town will custom order case lots. Quite a few staples stores do not stock the entire inventory they possibly could due to demand in your area and limited shelf space. If you can explain your demand for bulk, you may convince the local staples to perform a trial run on these. Staples currently has single, three, five, ten, fifteen, twenty-five, thirty, fifty, and hundred packs available. The problem is that not all stores carry the larger bulk packs. It's more profitable for them to piece meal these discs to you. If you tell the manager you will buy an entire case of 50 packs (6x50), you may convince him to order 2 or 3 cases. When they ship, make sure you and your friends buy up those larger packs quickly and the manager will realize there is a market for those bulk packs in your area. I did this and our local staples now regularly carries 30 packs while every so often 50 packs appear they do not last long on the shelf.

[oldfart13]

I've tried that before...heck I have a number of friends who work for that outfit and I can even get stuff from "employees nights" but it doesn't do a lot of good since Staples amalgamated with Business Depot some years ago. The new company is much harder to work with than when we had competition from 2 stores...

An entire case of 50 packs! That's rich...and I'd have to be. My bud who does commercials for the local TV stations can't even afford that. Is that how you are buying DL discs?

[BSpielbauer]

I have been looking for a good way to backup my dvd collection but the cost of dual layer media is too expensive right now.... It is almost as much as me buying another copy of the movie instead... Do you guys have any links to buy dual layer media at a reasonable cost?

Just a head's up--> The Verbatim dual layer DVD+R discs (which are the most reliable, and the current best choice for dual layer discs) are on sale this week only, at Best Buy. I believe it is in a 10-pack this time, and the final cost is only $1.99 per disc.

The only problem, from what has been reported around the web, is that most of them sold out right away, so you may need to ask, and then try to determine when they might get their next shipment in, and then try to be there at the right time.


This was (believe it or not) offered up at BestBuy.com, on the website. And, it is listed as "sold out" on there, as well... as soon as it sold out, the page no longer listed the sale price. So, the local store is probably your only hope.
-Bruce

[Prot]

I went to my local Best Buy on Oct 7, and the listed price was $60, not $20 as you claim. The web site also listed them as $60+.

BB's sales run from Sunday to Saturday, so they should still have been on sale, if they ever were.

[rhegedus]

It is almost as much as me buying another copy of the movie instead.

We have a winner!

I think DL media is being kept artificially expensive to make people buy the original movie and not just re-burn rips.

That said, DL media is now £3 here (half the price it was a year ago).

[Gen-An]

By all accounts, DL media is much more difficult to manufacture than SL media, and I would assume more expensive to make. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with trying to make people buy an original movie. How would the media manufacturers profit from that?

[lordsmurf]

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with trying to make people buy an original movie. How would the media manufacturers profit from that?

Precisely!

This comment:

I think DL media is being kept artificially expensive to make people buy the original movie and not just re-burn rips.

Is why I said this earlier in the thread:

It need also be mentioned that DVD burning technology was not created for people that want to copy discs. It was created as a cheaper method to create discs in smaller quantities. Content creation, small studios, etc. Not to reproduce discs that already exist (although this is certainly a nifty advantage).

I have never understood the mindset of "blank media is made for copying commercial releases" concept. Too many people are wrapped up in that super narrow use of discs, never seeing the bigger picture.

[rhegedus]

This comment:

I think DL media is being kept artificially expensive to make people buy the original movie and not just re-burn rips.

Is why I said this earlier in the thread:

It need also be mentioned that DVD burning technology was not created for people that want to copy discs. It was created as a cheaper method to create discs in smaller quantities. Content creation, small studios, etc. Not to reproduce discs that already exist (although this is certainly a nifty advantage).

I have never understood the mindset of "blank media is made for copying commercial releases" concept. Too many people are wrapped up in that super narrow use of discs, never seeing the bigger picture.

That's all well and good but doesn't explain the shift from 4.3Gb to 8.5Gb disks. It's hardly for distribution of privately made material when you consider the dire DL set-top compatibility.

DVDR media may have many uses, but I'll put money on burning rips of movies being one of the biggest ones.

[BSpielbauer]

I went to my local Best Buy on Oct 7, and the listed price was $60, not $20 as you claim. The web site also listed them as $60+.

BB's sales run from Sunday to Saturday, so they should still have been on sale, if they ever were.

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=150937&highlight=Verbatim+Buy


https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=281386&highlight=buy+verbatim

Do a search, it is pretty easy to find info on both of these sales.

(And, the web site price was reposted to the regular price at the same time the "Sold Out" notice appeared, while the sales price was still supposedly in effect. This was also discussed a lot, and the going opinion seems to be they do this to keep people from complaining that they could not get some sort of a "rain check.")

-Bruce

[BSpielbauer]

I went to my local Best Buy on Oct 7, and the listed price was $60, not $20 as you claim. The web site also listed them as $60+.

BB's sales run from Sunday to Saturday, so they should still have been on sale, if they ever were.

The Staples sale, that I also mentioned above:


https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=280167&highlight=staples

And, regarding the two links in my post directly above this one. The first is to another forum, where the Best Buy $1.99 deal was discussed, as soon as it appeared. There were threads at other forums, as well.

The second is to a thread on single layer Verbatims, but the sale is a part of the same overall Verbatim sale this week at Best Buys. So far, those single layer discs have not sold out, so the sale price still is in effect.

Hope this helps clarify.

-Bruce

[studmonkey76]

I went to my local Best Buy on Oct 7, and the listed price was $60, not $20 as you claim. The web site also listed them as $60+.

BB's sales run from Sunday to Saturday, so they should still have been on sale, if they ever were.

They were on sale..I bought one pack online for 19.99 with free shipping but they charged tax...