Why Microsoft and Intel Chose HD DVD over Blue Ray

[Paul William]

HD DVD support a last minute switch, Microsoft says

Scott M. Fulton, III

September 27, 2005 - 19:02 EST

Redmond (WA) - In an exclusive interview with Tom's Hardware Guide, one of Microsoft's lead representatives on the DVD Forum Steering Committee said that decisions regarding whether his company and Intel would back and promote HD DVD as a high-definition video disc standard, were determined only within the last few days. Prior to some critical recent developments and announcements, both companies - which had proclaimed neutrality - may have been ready to back Blu-ray.

"Until now, we viewed ourselves more as a technology provider for both groups," said Jordi Ribas, Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media, and a key developer of the VC-1 codec currently in use by both HD DVD and Blu-ray. He revealed that Microsoft and Intel had produced a list of what he called "key requirements for the success of next-generation DVD." For several months, while those requirements were being circulated, both companies worked on developing key standards to be implemented by both formats. Ribas said he was directly involved with implementing the VC-1 codec, and also worked jointly with Disney to produce the iHD interactive layer considered by both camps, but eventually adopted only by HD DVD (Disney is a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association.) During that time, Intel and Microsoft both maintained their public neutrality. But very recently, from the two companies' perspective, things started unraveling unexpectedly for Blu-ray.



"Our decision is based mainly on where the formats are today," Ribas said, referring to Microsoft. "A year and a half ago, both format organizations had very similar goals, and to some extent, the story of Blu-ray was actually very powerful. It had higher capacity, it had what we would consider benefits at the time. But then as time went on, and we'd seen what's the reality of both formats today, and what were promises versus what's proven and what's real, that's when we decided to make the decision."

Blu-ray failed the Intel/Microsoft test in six critical areas, Ribas told us, referring to a document listing those areas that a Microsoft spokesperson provided to Tom's Hardware Guide:

First, and perhaps foremost, is the ability for a consumer to make authorized copies of a legally obtained disc, in order to store the content on a hard drive and stream it to devices around the house. Intel particularly wants this capability for its Viiv home entertainment platform, announced last month. "We think it's a great consumer win, and it's a great industry win, to be able to ensure that with good copy protection, you can have so much functionality for the user," Rivas told us. But when recently questioned about its support for these features, Ribas said, although Blu-ray had appeared supportive at one time, its current stance is now uncommitted.

Support for hybrid discs that can be read in both current DVDs and future players, was the second critical element. This would "future-proof" new releases, enabling consumers to buy DVDs that can play in today's players, while also providing high-def content for tomorrow's. "That's something that both promised," said Ribas, "but HD DVD delivered, and Blu-ray has not - and it seems it's nowhere in sight. [Blu-ray has] claimed they have it in the lab, but to go from the lab to mass production is like night and day. There's a lot of effort that needs to happen. So as of now, there's nothing that leads us to believe that that's going to be possible [from Blu-ray] at this point."

Maintaining low production costs is a critical factor, which has been a key HD DVD talking point in light of current revelations about factory upgrade costs for Blu-ray. "For a long time, we actually thought that the Blu-ray Group had the upper hand in costs," Ribas said, mainly because of the involvement in Blu-ray of most of the major Japanese CE manufacturers - Sony, Matsushita (Panasonic), Pioneer, and Sharp - as well as Philips. Here is where recent events played a critical role: In a development that was brought to light only this morning, two of the world's leading China-based DVD player production facilities announced their support for HD DVD over Blu-ray. In press statements, these companies cited the relative openness of the DVD Forum compared to the Blu-ray Disc Association. "Now that we see China embracing HD DVD," said Ribas, "we actually see that on the cost side, HD DVD will have an advantage, because the Chinese have been the ones who have lowered the prices, via the competition, for HD DVD players." As much as 75 percent of DVD players sold in America today come from China, he added.

Maintaining low disc replication costs affects the consumer price for media, said Ribas, which would play into any price/performance evaluation. A disc production factory can make minor upgrades to its equipment, he stated, with the result being equipment that can produce both conventional DVD as well as HD DVD. Citing figures circulating this week throughout the industry, Ribas said it would cost as much as $1.7 million per production line to install Blu-ray disc production equipment, and as much as $2.0 million for each new mastering system installed. That's a significant expense, he explained, for a business which only turns over a 10 percent margin.

The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.

The final entry is interactivity standards. Although Microsoft and Disney jointly developed the iHD interactivity layer, based on XML - which is the glue that holds together the "Vista vision" of Microsoft's future Windows platform - and even though Disney is a Blu-ray proponent, the Association chose instead to endorse BDJ, an implementation of Sun-s Java Mobile Edition. Ribas told us that the major studios - either publicly or quietly - are opposed to BDJ, citing its relative complexity and its lack of compelling new features compared to iHD. An optional commentary track for videos, for example, that superimposes the speaker's image on-screen as well as providing audio, is one key iHD feature that BDJ will support only as an option, maybe. "Which means nobody will use it," said Ribas.

"Intel was looking at similar issues," said Ribas, "and [we] realized, 'We are getting very close to getting these things into the market, we have to stop hoping or expecting or believing promises. We have to look at what's real and what's not.' That's where our decision came from."

Ribas told us more about his and his company's expectations for the future of video disc technologies and interactive media in general. Stay in touch with Tom's Hardware Guide for more of our interview this afternoon with Microsoft's Jordi Ribas.

Tom's Hardware Guide has contacted the Blu-ray Disc Association early Tuesday for comment on today's developments. So far, the organization has not responded to our inquiries.

[BJ_M]

that may all be true -- but blu-ray has been shipping already for over a year and has been adopted by most of the major studios and all the networks now (internal use) ...

one thing though -- it will keep prices down ...

[Paul William]

How many GB do the Blu-ray discs that are shipping now hold? The article above indicated that they have not been able to get as much storage "outside the lab" as the HD DVD discs can.

- Paul

[Xylob the Destroyer]

I can't vote at this time, there still isn't enough solid, reliable information available on the formats.
Specifically, price points for hardware and software.

PS3 will be a Blu-Ray machine, that's a no brainer.
And I will get a PS3, eventually.
So, I may wind up "adopting" both formats.

[BJ_M]

How many GB do the Blu-ray discs that are shipping now hold? The article above indicated that they have not been able to get as much storage "outside the lab" as the HD DVD discs can.

- Paul

25gb

[ROF]

I'm still in the blu-ray camp for several reasons:

1) It's already available which means it has a market.

2) It's going to be used in the first console gaming I buy my child.

3) The name is cool (Coolness factor)

4) Up until 4 years ago Dual Layer Commercial burnable DVDs were just a promise.

5) Most of the major movie studios support blu-ray.

Whether I buy in early on either of these (besides a PS3) will be determined by two factors:

1) Price

2) Availability

Whether I throw 100% support behind either will be determined by one factor:

1) Consumer recordable discs at a decent price.

I bought a zip disc drive back when CD burning was in it's infancy and discs were outrageously priced not to mention recorders were well over $1000. I bought into the Iomega hype that disc costs would drop. They never did and are still extremely expensive per Mb of storage. There are alot of things that could sway me one way or the other, but cost and availability are the key points for me. I don't mind paying $1000 or more for a recorder/burner, but if the media is relatively cheap and has a promise to reduce costs, I'll buy on a promise. The promise of cheap VHS tapes was a winner at a time when recordable tape media was expensive. Sometimes you just have to make a decision and hope the promises you are given will become realities. In truth, you can't vote in a democracy without a little faith in failed promises.

[edDV]

I think we are seeing Wintel assert their gonads vs Sony.

Take us seriously or face war.

Intel and Microsoft have their future tied to the Windows Media Center platform and home media networking and they don't want Sony in a position of gating control.

The HD DVD group probably granted them adequate influence.

A negotiated settlement is likely.

[Cornucopia]

re: Zip disks...

Other main problem with Zip & Jaz discs was the "Click of Death" syndrome. That killed it for me. Lost a number of archived items before this known flaw became clear to users. Transferred the rest of our stuff to CD-R and DVD-R, haven't had a problem with compatibility since.

re: the Announcement...

Remember, this is M$ talking! This could actually mean different things if seen through the "Anti-M$-BS" filter.

I have liked Blu-Ray better on paper so far, even with the occasional worry about the rumoured "Phone connection" requirement. Jury is still out, though...

Scott

[edDV]

...
re: the Announcement...

Remember, this is M$ talking! This could actually mean different things if seen through the "Anti-M$-BS" filter.

I have liked Blu-Ray better on paper so far, even with the occasional worry about the rumoured "Phone connection" requirement. Jury is still out, though...

Scott

They want Blu-Ray control pulled away from Sony and the content producers. Sony wants tight DRM with highly controlled networking.

Wintel wants networkable media within their wider DRM framework. Apple wants the same thing but may choose to parter closer to Sony. They are all posturing for who will control the next level of media networking standards.

BTW, customers have little to do with this power fight.

[Delerious]

I voted Blu-Ray because I was interested in the formats more for backing up (data) mainly rather than the playing of content. I'm unsure which way I'll eventually go, I'll probably be waiting until at least the second generation to see how things look before taking the plunge.

I also thought MS went HD DVD because of MCE and maybe to a lesser extent because of the PS3 having Blu-Ray, although from what I understand the XBOX360 is going to be just plain DVD.

J

[Neroon]

It might be too much to hope for but if both formats endure the test of time, then perhaps we'll get a bit of competition back into the movie market. Anything against cartells is good in my book.

[paulw]

You may want to read this before jump into either camp.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12349

Blu-ray plans their launch & players use Internet authentication

[Bob W]

You may want to read this before jump into either camp.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12349

Blu-ray plans their launch & players use Internet authentication

Yeah this part really turns me off Blue-ray.

"Unfortunately, the Blu-ray backers have brought their anti-piracy efforts even further as Blu-ray players must authenticate themselves over the Internet and if any evidence of tampering or modding has been reported by the player to the remote server, the player can be remotely disabled. For example, modding the player to remove region coding (if implemented) will not be tolerated."

[RAAGAAman]

"Unfortunately, the Blu-ray backers have brought their anti-piracy efforts even further as Blu-ray players must authenticate themselves over the Internet and if any evidence of tampering or modding has been reported by the player to the remote server, the player can be remotely disabled. For example, modding the player to remove region coding (if implemented) will not be tolerated."

Sorry folks but this is BullSh%t. This is the same for HD DVD and BD. It is part of the AACS spec which both are going to use. Its just another little lie that the HD DVD is pushing out. HD DVD has to follow the same rules. Also, Intels bitch about not being able to share legally obtained copys of BD-ROM disks across a home network is also BS. This again is in the AACS spec and applies to BD and HD DVD. What this really comes down to is three things.
1) MS is pissed the IHD was not put into BD-ROM. BD used BDJ.
2) They have to compete with Sony PS3 and they need to differentiate themselves. HD DVD will probably be earlier and cheaper out the gate. This means that Xbox 360 could potentially get a leg up on Sony PS3 for HD content games.
3) I guarantee that Toshiba greased the skids to get MS and Intel support.

RG.

[waheed]

If both are going to use internet authentication, then im sticking with DVD. Both Blu Ray and HD-DVD can go to hell.

Its only boycotting the players that will send a message across thay consumers aren't takking any of this Bullshit.

Paul William, I think you need to add an option for "Neither" in the poll which is where my vote goes.

[dcsos]

Microsoft likes Toshiba's format cause the consumer can't burn it..
Unlike BLURAY, and like DVD(standard def)
you won't get a HD DVD burner at the product's launch..
Try that HACKERS!
Remember that DVD wasn't hacked for the first three years of existance!

[whitejremiah]

i totally agree with waheed........unless they fix it so you can make a personal backup of your own movie to prevent the original from getting just WRECKED, im gonna vote neither one....consumers shouldnt have to take this type of garbage.....in my opinion, both will fail until someone finds a way around them.........look at DVD Audio....up till VERY recently there was no way to copy them at all, and look how bad they failed...then the tools that were used to copy them were propetually banned from the internet....both blu ray and HD DVD are definately NOT consumer friendly.........i know how it is if you have kids....they will wreck your discs up........i know someone who had their kid get ahold of a sharpie and like 20 dvd's when they weren't looking....fortunately for them, they were able to remove it...if they were backups, that wouldve been a heck of a lot less potentailly damaging....look at it this way, laser discs, why didn't they go over well? dvd audio, why didnt that go over well? they are both of superior quality, but have (at least HAD in the case of laserdisc) no easy way to make a backup copy of them....honestly, dvd's look just fine on a 52" tv so i'll be sticking with standard dvd for a very long time to come...........you know that some people havent even switched over to DVD yet? You know how upset they will be that the companies are already trying to shove another format down their throat? Quite frankly, i'm upset that they are already trying to do so....i got my first dvd player like 4 years ago (a rather late adaptor compared to some people) it's gonna be a whole new breed of vhs versus betamax in the case of HD DVD and blu ray, except this time, neither one will come out a winner....just my two cents.

[MikieV]

Microsoft likes Toshiba's format cause the consumer can't burn it..
you won't get a HD DVD burner at the product's launch..

But you will have Blu-ray burners shortly(?) thereafter. Consumers are backing-up their DVD to DVD-R/+R now. The trick will be to keep them from backing-up their HD DVDs to Blu-ray.

[ROF]

If both are going to use internet authentication, then im sticking with DVD. Both Blu Ray and HD-DVD can go to hell.

Its only boycotting the players that will send a message across thay consumers aren't takking any of this Bullshit.

No boycott here, I'm actually looking forward to supporting this effort. Hopefully they will be tracking what users are watching as well. That way, hollywood will get the signal that we don't need a bunch of crap movies or lousy remakes. This will also stop those people I see in the office trading copies of movies on DVD recordable media too. There are more people who support this effort to suppress piracy then there are those who support it in favor of piracy(AKA Backup their libraries).

The only problem I have with this type of authenication is support for portable media players. These are rarely in a location where internet connectivity is possible. These consortiums would have to find an alternative in order to maintain the level of consumer protection their internet connected home based devices provide. I'm waiting to hear what that solution might be.

[Paul William]

How will the network authentication requirement, work in the 99% of homes that don't have a home network, or that do have a network connection somewhere in the home, but not near the TV, or that don't use WIFI? I can't imagine network authentication actually being implemented by the manufacturers for those reasons. Its probably just "out there" to get the studios to support it, but will never be implemented. - Paul

[ROF]

That's just about the only thing holding this consumer protection scheme up is the fact that quite a few people do not have a cable line to the back of their entertainment centers in their homes. The other sticking point is the portability market which has grown to huge numbers in the last few years.

[waheed]

This will also stop those people I see in the office trading copies of movies on DVD recordable media too.

I am against piracy but it means you are also restricted to playing commercial movies only.

There will be people who aren't bothered with internet authentication. But the problem is playing home made media. Soon enough after release of Blu Ray/HD DVD, recordables (drive & media) will be out too. I know that High Definition Camcorders are already available and people will want to record their home videos (be it wedding video, birthday party, graduation ceremony or whatever), how will internet authentivcation solve the problem of playing such home made videos.

[ROF]

I know that High Definition Camcorders are already available and people will want to record their home videos (be it wedding video, birthday party, graduation ceremony or whatever), how will internet authentivcation solve the problem of playing such home made videos.

There will be nothing to authenicate therefore it would just be wasted bandwidth. Do you own an audio software player for your audio files on your PC? Does it check the CDDB for track info when you insert a commercial disc? What happens when you put in a friends compilation CD-r? Same concept for this , the tracks do not have labels since their is no reference media in the CDDB, but it still attempts to locate such info. You would have no problem playing a non-encrypted disc. Since the keys for blu-ray would never be stored locally, the chance for pirates to break this encryption method would be significantly reduced. The gaming industry is already doing this.