Yes. I recorded something that happened to show the banding fairly badly on the SRV101 (just whatever was on cable at the time). It looked OK played back on my 5912 (although maybe there were faint bands, since I do see faint bands on the 5912 at times, but that still seems to be a playback issue and not recording), so the bands are not in the recordings, thankfully!Originally Posted by davideck
(Edit: I should add I have returned my SRV101 as of this morning to B&H, with a note explaining my problems with the VCR specifically and the link to this thread. I won't be able to do further testing on it. I do still have the captures I recorded to my DVD recorder so I can toss some of those up if anyone cares. Quite honestly, it's much less apparent on a still frame than it is in motion. It's not HORRIBLE but if you're even in the slightest bit anal about picture quality, once you see it it sticks out like a sore thumb. I found myself staring at ANY video source for green bars [including DirecTV, etc] so it probably wasn't good for my mental health to keep it. )
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Originally Posted by anitract
That's what I'm wondering too, which is why I want to see non-JVC screen caps. When I had my SR-V101US, I tested sources against a cheaper VCR (magnavox I think) and the banding was not visible. This makes me think it was the JVC. Though we'll see.
Gotta admit, though, that this is all pretty interesting.
@ BrainStorm, those are some great looking pics you posted. I mean,
the quality and the lack of Line Noise (LN) in them. Sure does make me
feel rather envious (spelling) of your Analog Capture setup.
( as you know, for years, I've suffered to no avail, Line Noise and to
this day, still do - will always and with no resolution.. oh well.
In your pics, I do not see any such LN anywheres. But sure would love
to view a short .avi just to be sure I agree - anyways)
Good demo of your latest test disks
During my re-reading (of page 2) I had found out the another member has
given up on this unit and returned it. Thus, I'm now disapointed in the
live-span of this topic..
As far as the issues w/ this phenomina goes.. I have been lacking because
now - (despite anitract's returing of his unit, which I didn't realize at
the time, else I woudn't have flared up this post) - another member has just
done the same and returned his unit. Now, we have no-one with the same
unit that we can "guage" from, in terms of orignality of this posts first
reporting of this phenomina. Sure, we can look at other vcr brands or
makes and models, but it won't be the same w/ out the original that started
up this topic in the first place - the JVC SR-V101US
The whole point of this all, was to resovle it, on this unit. And, in the
process, learn that other makes and/or models would spring up with this
problem, and the *cause* (assuming was found) could be applied to those
Now, since there are no more members who have the JVC SR-V101US vcr, and
who can help in this area (willingly) and demonstrate the same issues and in an
on-going process, what are we to do now ??
Ok. So I thought about runing the tests with my:
** JVC; Sharp VC H960; Sony SLV-685HF - (an older unit)
But, since we can't re-run the test w/ the original JVC SR-V101US vcr, to make
sure we have the culprit phenomina described (because that is IMHO, a necessary
step to run when investigating such issues) I don't see the point in going
further with this. I'd rather see the original vcr's issues (on-going) so
that we can gauge progress as time moves on, and finally with either a resolution
or at the very least, the cause - but this is not possible, now.
Right now, I don't know anymore
I was watching something I recorded about 2 years ago, with a Apex DRX-9000 DVD recorder and played from a JVC HR-S3800U. There was banding on a few recordings, but I think the tape was at fault. The other recordings from the exact same setup, from many other tapes, lacked this problem. So I think the tape was just as much to blame, and it could have been the fault of the recording VCR too (a cheap GE VHS unit). It could only be seen on bright red images, two slightly pink lines showing. No other color showed it.
The original VHS tape played back in the VHS recorder is so full of chroma noise that you wouldn't really be able to notice banding anyway. It was actually pretty noisy on the JVC 3800 too, but the Apex's LSI chip removed 99% or more of the chroma noise at encode.
In this situation, the banding is by far a lesser of evils.
On those orange images
... I think some of you are reading too much into this. You need to not lose focus, this is NTSC video after all. "NEVER THE SAME COLOR" got it's nickname for a reason, and you must remember you're basically using a hacked B&W signal with color crammed into it. Some of this could easily be the chroma issues inherent to the format.
I don't necessarily know that we're seeing anything special.
Well, I had to return mine because I was buying it to have a high end, all purpose VCR for capturing. When it had both the orange bars, and the squealing in mono playback, I couldn't keep it. I would've liked to have done more tests but B&H's 7 day return policy kind of prevented that. It was too much money.
That said-- I don't completely understand what the problem is here. Other VCRs aren't showing the same bars, so it definitely seems like the JVC family has something going on. My guess is that it is something inherent with the VHS format, but that it's not being compensated for- some sort of stray noise due to the way VHS works or something.
Even on tapes recorded on the SRV101, that show the banding played back on the SRV101, don't seem to show the banding on other VCRs. I do possibly notice VERY VERY light bands but the issue here is the SRV101 is significantly worse than other VCRs I tried including my 5912.
It's definitely doing something that other VCRs weren't and making the picture worse, and for the money, I couldn't justify keeping it. (when the bars weren't noticeable it did have a very good DNR but.... I know how my eyes are, and I'd go crazy on every video every time seeing those bars. The Saturn car commercial I mentioned earlier had green bars through the whole picture -- like 6 or 7-- not just the 2 originally mentioned)
I guess my question is-- if tweaking every option in the settings doesn't fix it... and it happens on prerecorded tapes, self-recorded tapes, brand new, old, etc, what else was there to try to "resolve" it?
[Just to keep editing my own posts: I tried that Saturn commercial in yet another VCR, an SVHS Panasonic (with no front markings as to model!) that's about 6-10 years old and pretty basic- no real picture controls or anything. I was pretty shocked, the tape was in much worse shape than either the SRV101 or the 5912 let on. Shaky picture, etc. I saw a similar banding, although I saw around 10 small, thin bands-- not 6-7 larger ones. It was a VERY different banding pattern than the JVCs did. Of course, this still doesn't explain why the SRV101 is the worst at it, unless all its advanced circuitry for making a good picture end up causing issues. (I don't mean the stuff like TBC in general, I just mean the internal machine). I didn't hear the audio hum at all on the Panasonic.]
Who knows. This last week was a bad week for me for testing stuff. I may try to find an SRV101 from a place with a longer return policy in a few months and try again... (it'd be interesting to use the same tapes and see if there was any quality/build differences) Of course that depends on how masochistic I am feeling!!
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
At any rate, I found this somewhat enlightening. Discussions like this definitely lead me toward developing a more critical eye and I find that to be (on the whole) a good thing.
I don't think where this thread headed is pointless either. It's really interesting. It may be that this is an aspect of VHS like some are starting to think it is...yet I agree more with Justin42, in that JVC is definitely showing it worse than anything else. Until I had purchased the SR-V101US, I had never noticed this. And on other VCRs, the banding was gone (or, so faint that it was undetectable). With my current HR-S9500U, I still can't see it, though I am still testing.
The thing that struck me the most when I was testing the SR-V101US was that every tape played in it showed the bands in the same locations on the screen.
Anyway, more tests will come and I hope to contribute when I can round up a little time. I think we all might reach a similar conclusion at that point.
Originally Posted by Justin42Originally Posted by anitract
I still think that these are impact errors. They are disturbances created when a video head mounted on the scanner rotates and impacts onto the tape, sending a sort of shock wave down the tape (like plucking a guitar string). The severity and profile of this shock wave would be dependent on such things as tape tension and head protrusion, and would therefore vary from VCR to VCR (even possibly for the same model). Since the shock wave is reintroduced the same way every rotation, the banding profile appears stationary.
For impact errors generated during playback, the banding profile on a given VCR would be similar for all tapes. A different VCR would have a different playback banding profile for these same tapes.
For impact errors generated during record, the banding profile of a given recorded tape would playback similarly in all VCRs. A tape recorded on a different VCR would have a different recorded banding profile when played back on these same VCRs.
Of course, since impact errors are generated during both record and playback, the banding profile of a given tape playback display is dependent upon the record VCR and the playback VCR. Many possibilities.
It may be that the VCRs in question generate more severe impact errors than other VCRs.
Well, I'd liked to have seen these tests run with the SR-V101US as well as other VCRs, but I do think it's still worth looking further into. In that regard, here are some tests from some of my other VCRs.
Toshiba M784 (composite)
Panasonic PV-4662 (composite)
JVC HR-S7600U (s-video)
Mitsubishi HS-U781 (s-video) (the vcr used to record the test tape)
I think I can see at least ~some~ banding in every one of them.
@davideck - interesting theory. Perhaps born out by the evidence.
Are you guys watching these on a TV, as well as through a computer-based capture card? I'd be curious about people's opinions-- do you see the banding in motion, or is it just evident in captures, etc?
I've found it's MUCH more noticable on a TV, in live action, than a still frame through a PC. (NTSC/deinterlacing/etc issue?)
Well, I just picked up a GoVIDEO SDV-650 off Ebay. It was a bit higher than I would've liked to pay but I'm impatient and my tax refund is due soon. I am hoping the JVC 9800-era units are a bit better built (and I didn't get scammed!). If not, I just paid a lot of money for a paperweight. But I think since the 9800 seems to be the VCR of choice around here, as long as it works OK, I should be happy. (i.e., it doesn't get better for anywhere near the price)
Since I'm basically "stuck" with it I'll try to run whatever tests on it. I know that doesn't help about the SRV101US but I'll be interested to see how it all compares...
Justin how much did you end up paying for that sdv-650? Might pick one up myself..
Originally Posted by K@SERYN
Nice caps BrainStorm69. You're my personal hero for today. :P I definitely see some degree of banding in all VCRs. davideck's theory looks more and more plausible to me. The SR-V101US that I had defintitely showed these errors (or whatever it is they are) more strongly than my 9500u, which I swear I still can't see.
The ultimate conclusion then is, how much of the banding can you take? If you can't take a lot then, then perhaps older JVCs are better than newer ones. But if you don't even notice it in your caps, then it really doesn't matter.
The ONLY thing that I could see botching this experiment is whether or not the banding was actually recordered onto the test VCR you used to create the test tape.
Looking at BrainStorm69's pics, I notice a thin green band about 20% down the frame on the first three VCRs. This suggests that this band is recorded on tape.
This same band is less pronounced on the last VCR, the one that made the recording. This would be expected since the same impact profile on record and playback should tend to cancel the errors.
Impact errors are timebase errors and might therefore be reduced by a good TBC. It would be interesting to see if anyone notices a difference through their TBC. I doubt that DataVideo units would make much difference. The 7600 pic (with internal TBC) does look to me to be the most uniform of the four, but some errors still remain. This could be the result of the frame based Chroma DNR reinforcing chroma shifts that are stationary from frame to frame.
The original tests I tried were done both with and without a TBC-1000.
Darn you guys! I thought this JVC (HR-A56U) did pretty good for a <$100 consumer machine, but nooo...You had to show me the green lines. The shot is of a slide show, transferred by Cam Corder.
olyteddy/everyone else: don't freak out just yet. A consensus hasn't been reached!
Originally Posted by olyteddy
No, IIRC it was recorded on a Sony S-VHS deck using my Sony Hi-8 camcorder as its source. It was about 12 years ago. The banding shows on most tapes. It doesn't really bother me, I was merely pointing out that once you see an artifact, you end up obsessing about it.
Guys.. sorry I haven't been around lately. I'm much tired these
days with work (and life) getting too be too much. Anyways.
I wanted to make another theory possible, but I think that davideck had
just mentioned it a few posts up.
The theory is actually a narrowed down to, two probably causes:
** TBC, and/or
* ( such as any other form of filter setup on units equipted with DNR or
other form of filter curcuitry )
This seems to be more believable on my part, but only because after pondering
it for a long while now, ( and a few experiements I ran w/ my JVC dv cam,
model: GR-DVL820U, and it's TBC-like feature )
In various hardware mpeg encodings that I have done with my ADV DVD Xpress
box, and using its hardware assisted filtering, I had found that it would
produce left-over artifacts like these color banding streaks. But, in my
Xpress box's mpegs, these streaks would be running up/down Virtically. And,
the colors would be either BLUE, RED, and sometimes GREEN, depending on the
source setup and degree of filtering
Thus, we may have narrrowed it down some, to DNR curcuitry variations.
That is.. each DNR (or variation there-of) has differnt forms of possible
DNR (aka, Digital Noise Reduction) or other forms of Noise Reduction processes
or methods, *do* have drawbacks or unclaimed anamilies. (though it *would*
seem that today, we (some members here) are finding out these "unclaimed anamilies"
in their transfered videos.
It is also possible that some of these DNR setups are (shall I say) leaking
out residules, much like cars exhaust fumes.
It is also quite possible that the makers/developers of these DNR machanics,
their eyes did not catch what we are now beginning to see ??
Yes, I believe that the above could be true to some degree.
In the examples listed so far, the pics are indicating that the VCR's that
are equiped with whatever kind of DNR, are outputing artifacts, such as
the color banding running across Horizonatally, currently being discussed.
What is making more sense to me now, more so than ever, is the fact that some
of the sources are non-corrupteable. That is, they are Commercial VHS sources.
The pointer is pointing towards the DNR of these VCR's, and what they are
capable of re-producing in terms of quality.
Hardware MPEG capture devices ...
And, in another example, using an hardware mpeg capture box made by ADS for
instance, when (and only when) the Filtering is [x] enabled, these artifacts
of color banding would show up. In this scenario or case, the banding would
be running up/down Virtically.
It would seem to indicate that we are getting closer to the cause. And, if
this turns out to be true ( do we need more test scenarios ? ) then what
would seem to be the next logital step in this endeavor, is to see if there
is a resolution, ie.. how about turning off DNR, for instance ?
Otherwise, the next best form of resolution is to seek out an alternate
VCR unit equipted with a better DNR process, or w/out a DNR all-together.
This seems to be the direction we are headed for, perhaps
Interesting point about the DNR. I noticed, when comparing the SRV101 to the 5912, that where the green banding was on the SRV101, the 5912 had some noise lines (and slight banding). So maybe it's a combination of the DNR and some sort of impact issue on the JVC's mechanism that's causing the worst of the banding, and why the 5912 performs slightly better.
I did notice, strangely, that when I put a TBC inline with my 5912, the banding seemed more prevalent than without it.
I noticed the banding on the SRV101 even with edit mode on and DNR off. (although I don't remember right now if I ever made an actual recording of that mode for comparison -- I kept many sample recordings just to see whenever I got another VCR to try..)
My SDV650 is supposed to ship tomorrow, I am hoping I'll have it by Friday for a weekend of testing...
Originally Posted by olyteddy
Originally Posted by Justin42
I think DNR is an interesting idea, but turning off DNR does not change the banding in any way, so, no go there. If you recall, DNR and all of the other settings were the first things I messed with to try and resolve my SR-V101US.
Here is what I can say for certain...
1) TBC-1000 does NOT remove banding
2) JVC settings (TBC, DNR, etc) do NOT remove banding
3) All tapes show banding in same location on my SR-V101US
4) Other brands besides JVC show some degree of banding (as shown in BrainStorm69's test)*
...because of all of this, I have to believe that the banding is either what davideck refers to as impact errors, or some other common issue with the VHS format. The SR-V101US (and some other JVC models) just show it more.
*The only way I would change this view is if it turned out the test BrainStorm69 did was flawed because of RECORDED banding errors (as davideck and I speculated).
So I propose a new test:
+Use a commercial tape with a TBC (to remove macrovision). Do this for both the JVC and non-JVC brands. I think this would be good because a studio produced tape would most likely NOT have recorded impact errors on it due to quality control and more professional equipment (speculation here of course).
...I don't think that this will show any different results, but it would be good just to confirm that the errors exist everywhere to SOME degree.
Originally Posted by swiego
Originally Posted by anitract
Originally Posted by anitract
Ok, so using commercial tapes alone might not give us the best test. I think I have a new idea for a test. Let me back up a minute, though. Remember how I said that all tapes I played in my SR-V101US showed banding IN THE SAME LOCATION? That's something we can work with I think to solving this issue.
What if we...
1) Take 2 different tapes (both not recorded on any of our test VCRs...for this reason, I'd suggest 2 random commercial tapes, or someone else's home videos)
2) Next do test caps for both tapes on each of the VCRs.
3) Compare the results.
Here's what we might be able to conclude...
* If the errors are recorded on the tapes themselves, then the banding should show up in the same spots (for each respective tape) no matter what VCR is being used.
*If the errors are produced by the VCR instead, then the banding should show up in differernt areas depending on the VCR.
Anyone want to try this with, say 3 VCRs & 2 tapes...that's like 6 test caps to compare. A bit of work. ^_^;