Problem: 2 color bands from JVC SR-V101US

[BrainStorm69]

Sorry I couldn't get to this last night. I forgot that my Windows "hive" got corrupted the night before last and I had to spend last night reinstalling Windows on my video capture machine. Maybe tonight.

[anitract]

That's okay. Considering how old this thread is...we can wait.

[BrainStorm69]

OK, it looks like my JVC 9900 suffers from it somewhat, and the 9500 even less. I've never noticed it before, so I don't think it's too noticeable with a moving picture. But see for yourself.


JVC 9900


JVC 9500

[vhelp]

Sorry, I've been busy elsewhere's..

anitract, this is a more common artifact whenever a device is used in-between
the Source <-> Capture device. Certain Detailers and Pro-amps *may* do this.
Also, any device that OUTPUT's, such as the ADVC-100 for instance.

The cause is not clear to me. However, I suspect two obvious clues, w/out
going into tech'y explanations..

** Macrovision (or, mistaken MV - due to bad/cheap device) on source
** Poor craftmenship of devices that OUTPUT video sources

Now, in my experience with my ADVC-100 and connecting a video source to it,
and OUTPUTing it from its connectors, (so that I could capture or record
from its output) ie.. composite or s-video..

video_source -> [IN]ADVC-100[s-video OUT]* -> capture_device

* not to be mistaken for the advc-100 's firewire output.

Now, following this pathway, I would experience the exact same color artifact
as you all were.

A theory here ...

Perhaps (theory) this is an AGC thing, and since it's a common feature,
it could be a problem of not properly adjusting (internally) its numbers.
It has to be something that is common, because we all seem to have this
exactly same problem, and it's unlikely to be a different cause for each of
us. It must be something common in all video devices.

Now, anitract, you said that you resoved it by changing your setup. I'll
assume by this, you mean, equipment. Thus, it could be (as I indicated above)
that your new device is more, crafted

( but, are you sure you no longer suffer from this ? I suspect that if you
were receiving these artifacts in your previous device setups, and that *if*
you were using, either a detailer/pro amp or capturing the output, that might
have been causing these problems, ..that you would begin to suffer again, these
artifacts of color banding )

-vhelp 3831

[vhelp]

Ok. Here is my other suggestion..
(only because it usually works for me every time)

insert one of your older capture cards (those BTxxx driver type)
( you know the one.. where you can capture *anything* w/out Macrovision
intervention )

If you no longer see these artifacts of color banding, then, you
have your answer.. it was Macrovision (and the reprocusion there-of,
from it)

-vhelp 3832

[jeffshead]

vhelp,

The color banding is visible with the VCR hooked up directly to the TV with no equipment in the loop. The VCR is either sensitive to something or is causing the banding.

I get this on 20% of the tapes I have viewed. I get the same effect on the 2901 as well. Yet the same tapes play fine on other VCR’s. I have tried different wires, moving the VCRs to different plugs, UPS, moving all components away from one another. It is definitely something with the VCR’s.

[vhelp]

jeffshead, if this is the case (at least with you) then I would make, yet
another suggestion or test..

..if the source you have is on DVD, and you have a DVD recorder that can
record w/out Macrovision, then do proceed to record a r/rw disk and then
proceed to use this test disk in your dvd player, and play it while you
record it to VHS tape. Then try go and capture it from your VCR.

What this test scenerio *might* be proving is this.. that if your VCR is
*NOT* evidensing any of thise color bankding (as you say) than again, I
say, it's Macrovision that is causing your given VCR the problems.. and
that it could be leaking out an a bi-product or something later in the
chain of events.

Well, ponder that one if you have the time later on tomorrow.

-vhelp 3833

[BrainStorm69]

insert one of your older capture cards (those BTxxx driver type)
( you know the one.. where you can capture *anything* w/out Macrovision
intervention )

If you no longer see these artifacts of color banding, then, you
have your answer.. it was Macrovision (and the reprocusion there-of,
from it)

-vhelp 3832

My screen caps above were from my DVD EZMaker, which completely ignores MV. And the cap was straight from the VCR to the card - nothing in between. But I did have the JVC TBC on. I wonder if that makes a difference? Might have to try some more caps, but too late tonight.

[anitract]

Ok, this is really getting interesting now. Based on BrainStorm69's excellent caps (good work!) I agree that it is definitely an issue with JVCs in general, particularly those after the 9500u series (which unfortunately includes a lot of top-rated machines). My 9500u also does not show banding so far as I can tell, or maybe its just a lot lower like BrainStorm69's.

vhelp, those are great suggestions, but like jeffshead, I tried everything under the sun, with no fix. Home videos, commercial VHS, you name it - they all showed the issue. I could also visibly see the banding when connected directly to different TVs.

BrainStorm69, now that you see it, you might want to look at some previously done caps...see how easily you can spot the banding. Of course, this might just tick you off if you are picky about things like this (like I am).

Also, when I had my my sr-v101us, I did try practically every single setting in the menu including TBC on or off. Nothing changed. Feel free to try though.

[anitract]

Now, anitract, you said that you resoved it by changing your setup. I'll assume by this, you mean, equipment.

Yup. Returned the SR-V101US and purchased an HR-S9500U in excellent condition.

Thus, it could be (as I indicated above) that your new device is more, crafted

I agree!

( but, are you sure you no longer suffer from this ? I suspect that if you were receiving these artifacts in your previous device setups, and that *if* you were using, either a detailer/pro amp or capturing the output, that might have been causing these problems, ..that you would begin to suffer again, these artifacts of color banding )

The banding appeared in all captures, with and without proc amp, tbc, and so on. I could also see the banding with the vcr directly connected to different televisions. When my new DVD recorder comes next week I will make caps with the HR-S9500U and you all can judge for yourselves whether the problem is gone. I think it is!

[BrainStorm69]

Just for completeness' sake, here is the same cap from my JVC 7600. TBC "on" like the others.


JVC 7600

[vhelp]

You left out the Movie source..

BrainStorm69, can you post the movie (or several that have this same
opening sequence) you used on these test pics ??

I would like to add to this topic, and run some tests using my:

** JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U

.
.

But, a special note..

We do need to be consistant with these tests. I mean. If we are going
to post pics of problem areas, then we need to use the same sources
throughout such tests so that we can easily or better clearly identify
the areas being demonstated here ? ? ?

Thanks guys,
-vhelp 3835

[lordsmurf]

than again, I
say, it's Macrovision that is causing your given VCR the problems.. and
that it could be leaking out an a bi-product or something later in the
chain of events.

This is very possible and pretty common. Remember that MV is an articial video error. In fact, it tends to be a handful of errors, and there are multiple types. Anti-copy can damage a signal, in addition to just preventing its copy.

I would consider most tests done with official releases to be null and void, for something like this.

[BrainStorm69]

@vhelp - sorry about that. It is from the Warner Bros. intro on Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. You can probably get it from any Warner Bros. movie.

I agree that we should try to always use the same source for testing purposes, but since the other sources were unidentified, couldn't really do it here.

@LS - I agree that it would be a good idea to try it on something recorded OTA to see if it happens on a source that has no MV protection. Maybe I'll try that later.

[vhelp]

BrainStorm69, I was going to suggest the approach to record that same
vhs movie (Harry Potter) to a DVD, but I'm not sure it would really
matter at all (after all) because we are not certain of the underlining
cause - yet.

So, I was thinking, if you have the (Harry Potter) DVD..

A) you could play this DVD in a hacked dvd player unit, or
B) (I prefer this route) you could rip (w/out MV) and make a new DVD (MV'less)

Then, proceed to run those same VCR tests over again, with each of your
JVC's.. 7500, 7600, 9800 series.

( if you want to go the DVD rip route, be might be able to agree on a DVD
title to use. Sorry, but I'm not too sure I want to buy into the Warner Bros
being the same on every DVD by them, since they could vary in terms of quality
or other. I have seen differences in prevous tests scenarios, though I never
did report it to anyone here.

The case in point was with one of yours' (or was it gshelley61's Ice Age test
patterns) I did notice that the tonal quality was not the same for another movie
version on DVD title. I think that was on my Incredibles DVD. )

Now, just to add to my reason for blaiming it on MV, is like this.
In all your posted pics thus far, they all exhibit the multi-color pheonama
at the bottom of each pic (though each one seems to be different in color)

But, I noticed that these color bars (the phenomina) color is the same color
for each of the pics. And, imho, each is all too coensidental in appearance
to not be MV related. IOW, they must be MV related. We just need to nail
down for sure that it is.

If you can run this test (I might add to this with my own test, using the same
source, if possible) and we can compare results/findings.

And, if it turns out to be MV related, then it would seem that some JVC models
react to the MV (or bi-product there-of) and your only final deciding factor in
a JVC model would be MV or not.

Any comments ??

-vhelp 3839

[anitract]

Macrovision, at least with every one of my captures is NOT an issue. The first 3 caps I posted were from different home video tapes. The next 3 were from 5th Element with a TBC-1000. Please note how in all of my caps the banding appears in the same spots. To me, this _clearly_ shows that it is a hardware and _not_ a source issue.

[jeffshead]

than again, I
say, it's Macrovision that is causing your given VCR the problems.. and
that it could be leaking out an a bi-product or something later in the
chain of events.

This is very possible and pretty common. Remember that MV is an articial video error. In fact, it tends to be a handful of errors, and there are multiple types. Anti-copy can damage a signal, in addition to just preventing its copy.

I would consider most tests done with official releases to be null and void, for something like this.

I agree MV should be eliminated in the tests. However, I do not have anything other than official releases. Some of the tapes exhibiting this flaw must not have MV because I can capture video from them with any DVD Recorder and ATI AIW without a TBC or any other device in the chain. Once again, all these tapes play fine on other VCRs but both the 7600 and the 2901 exhibit varying degrees of color banding.

[vhelp]

On the subject of MV, I think that I am being misunderstood here.

When I say that it could be MV related (or in so many other words)

than again, I
say, it's Macrovision that is causing your given VCR the problems.. and
that it could be leaking out as a bi-product or something later in the
chain of events.

Here, I'm talking about the VCR's acting faulty/misleading of the sources.
(read below)

I do not necessarily mean that your source *has* macrovision in it..
..but, that your units/devices are mistakening the sources as macrovision
and is kicking in the Macrovision Curcuitry.

Perhaps its faint, weak, or what-have-you, but its there, being mistaken
by the VCR's or the capture devices.

If the VCR's are mistakening some of the sources as MV, then it could be
the VCR needs adjustments. This can be ruled true *if* other users with
the same model comes forth with the same issue, using Commercial VHS tapes
and non-Commercial VHS tapes. But, it would be better (and consistant) if
same-sources were used by everyone for these kinds of tests.

Now, earlier in this thread, I made mention of another cause, AGC.
This could be an underlining cause, and giving the JVC's a bi-product or
something, which could be triggering MV curcuitry somewhere in the chain
of events.

And, when I mentioned the color bankding (earlier in this page) I was
refering to the commonalities of Macrovision and its color related
blanking or fading or whatever it does. I don't have all the symtoms
of macrovision illnesses. But the color bandings I noted earlier is
definately related to macrovision. That is, it is a product of macrovision.
And when you see such products (as in your experiences) then one can't
help but to consider the possibilities that Macrovision might be playing
a part in all this, afterall.. and your sources (vhs tapes) do not have
to have macrovision on it at all.

Other uses of the JVC models mentioned in this line up should participate
and run some tests as you all have. But, again I say, that if such tests
are to be done, they should be done properly. That means, consistancy
across the board. Everyone should be using the same source in their tests
so that there is no chance of taint anywheres.

BrainStorm69's Warner Bros. choice pic was a good example. We could start
with that as a consistant test medium.

Well, it's getting late for me. I've been on this forum for over 15 hours.
See you all later, perhaps.

-vhelp 3842

[anitract]

If a machine is in fact mis-reading macrovision, why would it do it in the same exact spots....I mean, why would the banding appear in the same location regardless of the tape? Also, why would it appear if an external time base corrector was used?

[BrainStorm69]

OK, I've created a test dvd to use for further testing that was created entirely by me. Solid colors fading into other solid colors (includes blue, cyan, green, yellow, orange, red and magenta). The zip file includes all the files that go into the VIDEO_TS folder of a DVD (including menu). Just unzip into an empty VIDEO_TS folder and burn to DVD. Just record to VHS tape and then capture the tape with your capture device. Then use VirtualDubMod to pick the frame you want to screen cap.

Zip file available here:

http://s54.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1135P644F6PHQ0W5RXIBB9GO1G

I will probably post some test results after I watch the Mavs game.

[anitract]

Cool. I'll contribute to BrainStorm69's test as soon as I can with my HR-S9500U. I almost wish I had the original SR-V101US, just so I could even more definitively prove how crappy it is.

[BrainStorm69]

Yeah, sorry I haven't posted any results yet. I've been busy with other things.

[Justin42]

Not that this helps much, but I just got a new SR-V101US and do see the banding in limited testing. I only really notice it against specific backgrounds (The tan-ish/beige of the WB intro is about the worst possible).

I don't know if I would've noticed it without having seen this thread even before I ordered. I guess my expectations of VHS source material is low enough I pretty much think any bad source issues are just part of VHS.

Of course, if JVC has a flaw.. where do you go? Especially if this affects a larger variety of models across the years, it seems like this may be fairly widespread (to varying degrees). It's too bad there's no real competition in the (S)VHS field anymore making high end equipment (Before you go ultra-pro).

[BrainStorm69]

OK, since orange seems to be a color that shows this better than others (shows up as green), here is a cap from the 9900 and the 9500 30 frames into the solid orange background.


9900


9500

[Justin42]

Well, I just did a check because I got a JVC HR-S5912U this week also (an extended warranty replacement). I was expecting the SRV101 to blow it away in all ways, but I do NOT see the banding on the 5912. I *possibly* see very faint traces of it but it is nowhere near what the SRV101 is doing. (and quite honestly I am in ultra-anal mode so it's quite possible it's not there at all)

I checked the same tape (I am using "A View To A Kill" cause, well, it was handy and has a blue sky scene at the very beginning which had very noticable banding on the SRV101; I also recorded some stuff on another tape to check. The stuff recorded on the SRV101 does not show banding on the 5912) on a Panasonic NV-HV61 (multi-system) unit and saw about the same picture as the 5912-- possibly faint traces (This IS an older tape, and does have Macrovision) but nowhere near what the SRV101 looked like.

As much as I like the idea of having the SRV101, and a theoretically better build quality than my 5912 (the 5901 it replaces started eating tapes fairly early in its life :/ ) if I'm going to avoid using it it seems silly to spend the money to keep it. I have a PAL-NTSC converter box that doubles as a pretty nice TBC (for my needs) as well so I don't see the SRV101 providing me any real benefit at a (sort of) significant cost. The picture might be a bit nicer on the SRV101 but again, if it's going to leave "trails" on my captures it seems to be a pointless advantage. (the 5912 and Panasonic definitely are a bit grainier, although sometimes that's a good thing. The SRV101 seems softer, even on edit/normal mode)

(not to mention, the SRV101 and 5912 seem REALLY similar in weight, construction, etc. I wonder if it's the same VCR unit with the TBC stuff in it, since that would be about the right price difference according to LordSmurf's info [around $100 in street price, not to mention the SRV101 is 'professional' so it probably adds 20% to the cost to say that ] )

[edit: of course, I go out to probably start packing up the SRV101 and try a tape I had been using, and now am not seeing the streak except under extreme conditions where I had been seeing it all the time. My eyes must be getting tired. Ugh, B&H only has a 7 day return policy on video equipment.. what to do, what to do....]

[anitract]

SEND IT BACK. Ok, I am a bit biased here, but still...

Acutally, go with what looks best to you, if the banding bothers you you will not be able to take it now that you see it. For me, though the 9500u that I have MAY band, since I have not seen it, it does not bother me like the SR-V101US did.

[Justin42]

I'm definitely leaning towards sending it back. I did a direct comparison of a random VHS recording from 2000 [it was recorded off cable, on my old, low-end but decently built Panasonic VHS machine from 1998 or so, which is what many of the tapes I want to convert to DVD are from] and the SRV101 didn't impress me all that much over the 5912 (for the additional cost). The Panasonic (which I have only used in the past for its ability to play PAL, as it is a fairly recent model and as such I assume not built incredibly well) probably was even slightly better than *both* of them! (I am wondering if it's because it's plugged into my DVD recorder's composite in, and as such maybe it does more filtering than it does on the S-Video in?)

And now that I see the banding, I can see it driving me crazy. It doesn't seem worth it to keep it if other VCRs are within 95% of the quality, without the banding, for no additional cost above what I've already spent on my other decks. I'll probably try a few more comparisons tests tonight but I am thinking I may as well call and set up the RMA. It's no trouble if I decide to keep it at the last minute...

I hate the idea of finding an old VCR on ebay, though! How I wish I had known what to look for back around 2000, it probably would've been much cheaper/easier to grab before they became so hunted. (not to mention the idea of buying one with who-knows-how-much use/wear/etc)

[Justin42]

Some further testing:

I found a VHS tape from 1994 recorded in LP (4 hour) mode (not entirely sure of the source of the tape, probably my parents' old Magnavox 2 head mono VCR). It had a Saturn car commercial that was done in sepia tone and showed the banding quite prevalently. (I figured this tape, while nothing I needed to archive, represents a good portion of random tapes I may come across-- just something recorded in a non-ideal format and kept through the years)

I found the 5912 DOES have the banding but it is not quite as prevalent as the SRV101. The SRV101 was pretty severe with a series of green bands through the whole picture (probably 6-7 bands). The 5912 had almost exactly the same bands but probably half as faint. (since I got the 5912 for 'free' as a warranty replacement, I'm not going to complain)

Interestingly enough, when I hooked my 5912 up through my ComWorld PAL-NTSC converter (Which doubles as a TBC; I know it's not a high quality TBC but it's a nice secondary function of the PAL conversion and it works decently) the bands seemed to become more prevalent on the 5912. (not a LOT, and maybe it was in my head)

Additionally, I am fairly certain this was just a mono (non-HiFi) recording, and I do hear the JVC "buzz" on the soundtrack (more like a high pitched whine, like a TV that's left on a blank channel [not static, just black]). That happens on both the 5912 and SRV101.

I am more and more convinced the SRV101 is just a 5912 with a TBC and something causing the banding to be a bit worse. I think the SRV101 looked slightly better on playback than the 5912 [TBC/DNR on] but not so much that it was worth dealing with the green bands, since I'd never "trust" it as a source machine even if it DOES look slightly better. So I am packing the SRV101 up and returning it. I guess I'll just keep an eye out on Ebay, and/or do a little more testing using older (lower-end but maybe better built) VCRs I wouldn't have tried before this [I have a couple here and there that have been retired while still basically functional so who knows]. My Panasonic multi-system really surprised me (although it looked HORRIBLE on the LP tape but didn't have any extraneous whining) so maybe I'll find I already have a unit that'll really surprise me.

[davideck]

Do these VCRs exhibit the same amount of banding when playing back their own recordings?

[anitract]

Good question davideck. I never tried it.

Here's another one: I'd love to see some screen caps of the orange color done on NON-JVC vcrs...anyone care to try it out on a panasonic, toshiba, sony...or actually, anything?