Maxell Japan -R have failed after 1 year!

[piano632]

This is disturbing news for me. Maxell Japanese 2x -R I burned only 1 year ago are now virtually unplayable. They will only play on the burner that made them (Pioneer 106D drive). Two other recorder/players (using Pioneer & LG drives) and another computer drive (LiteOn) cannot read anything on the discs (even though they could when they were first burned)! I thought these Maxell Japanese discs were supposed to be some of the highest quality discs out there. I stored the Maxell discs the same place I keep my other discs. Yet strangely enough, I have -RW discs made 2-3 years ago that are still completely playable on all drives. Something tells me that DVD-R is not a safe long-term medium (at least not these Maxell discs). I'm glad I kept backups of these Maxell discs on a hard drive.

Can anybody else confirm this about Maxell discs (or any other brand as well)?

[lordsmurf]

You're drawing false conclusions.
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=248839

The more likely issue is your lasers are later in their life cycle. Or they need a good cleaning.

The verification that the discs works just fine on the burner really supports this too. If the disc was "bad" it would not work on ANY reader or burner.

[piano632]

OK, I guess I can't technically say the discs have failed because 5 out of 6 are playable on the original burner. The 6th disc however is completely unplayable even on the original drive.

I periodically use a lens cleaner on all my drives, and none are that old or excessively-used that I would consider the laser to be weakening. I have other discs older than these Maxells that are completely playable on these same drives. So there has to be some kind of deterioration in these Maxell discs.

The Pioneer 106D doesn't support P1 error checking, otherwise I'd test for that.

[Adder_78]

You're drawing false conclusions.

The verification that the discs works just fine on the burner really supports this too. If the disc was "bad" it would not work on ANY reader or burner.

Well that is not fact. It is not that simple.

[budz]

I periodically use a lens cleaner on all my drives, and none are that old or excessively-used that I would consider the laser to be weakening. I have other discs older than these Maxells that are completely playable on these same drives. So there has to be some kind of deterioration in these Maxell discs.

Using lens cleaners aren't good to use on dvd burners which could be why your maxell discs can not be played back. Another reason could be the software that you used to burn those discs. I've got maxell dvd-r/+ discs that are over a year old that play back fine on my standalone dvd players. Sounds to me you watch your dvds on the computer?

[lordsmurf]

You're drawing false conclusions.

The verification that the discs works just fine on the burner really supports this too. If the disc was "bad" it would not work on ANY reader or burner.

Well that is not fact. It is not that simple.

It is that simple.

So right back at ya'

From all that has been said, the lasers are both aged and the lenses have been ruined by repetitive use of abrasive lens cleaner discs. The discs are fine, the lasers and lenses are in subpar condition. Lasers can and will die relatively fast, while discs will easily outlast dozens and dozens of players/readers.

Of course, this assumes you discs were good to begin with, and maintained properly. There has been no mention of a series of quality tests being performed on the discs in the first place. Nor any mention of the storage conditions of the discs. Any scratches or film on the surface will make the discs less reflective.

Reading a good disc is all about reflectivity. You need to read a clean media, and you need to have a clean/powerful reader. Dirty/scratched discs, scratched laser lenses and wussy lasers won't cut it.

[Seeker47]

Lordsmurf replied: "The more likely issue is your lasers are later in their life cycle. Or they need a good cleaning."

O.K., so what should we use to clean them ?

. . . .

"From all that has been said, the lasers are both aged and the lenses have been ruined by repetitive use of abrasive lens cleaner discs."

Out of just such a concern, I've avoided doing that, so far getting by just with occasional blasts of compressed air into the burner.

A couple of recent bad burns (TDK -R 8X {Taiwan}, Pioneer 108) hardly establish a trend, but leave me wondering if this could be an early sign of a laser going South ? Both jobs successfully reburned at 4X, with media from the same spindle. (It was pretty late in the spindle, and they had been burning at 8X fine, up until this point.)

"The discs are fine, the lasers and lenses are in subpar condition. Lasers can and will die relatively fast, while discs will easily outlast dozens and dozens of players/readers."

How long should the laser last in a good quality burner, or in the burner that comes in a good standalone recorder ?

I don't have anywhere near your degree of faith in the media -- even the best quality media -- but I'll probably address that in a separate thread.

[lordsmurf]

Dismantle drive, blow out with air. Gently swab lens with alcohol. That'll clean it.

The TDK could have been the media. I've caught some bad ones from time to time. But it'll be bad right away, not some mystical "disappearing data" fairytale.

Lasers can lasts months or years. There is no formula. I've seen anywhere from 4 to 60+ months before a laser starts to die away.

[dcsos]

Any exposure to sunlight possibly?

[piano632]

Discs have no labels, no scratches, no fingerprints - they are squeaky clean. Stored in slim cases in dark cabinet with other discs and tapes.

Liteon ROM drive won't even mount disc.
Sharp DVD recorder w/ Pioneer drive says "loading..." but never gets any farther.
JVC DVD recorder w/ LG drive says "unreadable disc" after a minute of trying to load.

I still find it hard to believe that lasers can simultaneously go bad on 3 different drives. Especially when these same drives can flawlessly read low-reflectivity -RW and +RW discs from 2-3 years back.

I don't excessively clean the laser lens - maybe only once every few months. The cleaning disc I usually use has very soft carbon fibers on it - hardly any more abrasive than a Q-Tip.

I should clarify that these are Maxell 2x DVD-R discs with green top made in Japan. I hope their 4x, 8x, 16x discs are better than these.

[ROBERT BLACK]

I have about 15 of those 2x Green topped Maxells. I used them to back up PS2 games. I find that MANY DVD-/+ discs preclude any long term use(many hours) in a player, or in my case game console. Degradation can and does result from long term exposure to heat. It happened with games I backed up on Ritek G04s. Either you received a substandard batch,or forgot and left them in direct sunlight for an extended period. Or somehow let moisture build up. I find it VERY odd that those went bad on you. Japanese Maxell and Taiyo Yuden are the only brands I use for data, that have stood the test of extended play.

[slacker]

The truth of the matter is that no one really knows for sure how long discs will stand the test of time. There are plausible theories out there, claims, conjecture, hearsay, etc. but when it comes right down to it, no one really knows!

[davideck]

Discs have no labels, no scratches, no fingerprints - they are squeaky clean. Stored in slim cases in dark cabinet with other discs and tapes.
I still find it hard to believe that lasers can simultaneously go bad on 3 different drives. Especially when these same drives can flawlessly read low-reflectivity -RW and +RW discs from 2-3 years back.

This is disturbing. I would certainly be upset if they were my discs!
Apart from a bad batch, there seems to be no reasonable explanation for this. Were they all bought around the same time?

I was a big fan of this media too. I burned at least 75 of them.
I would stock up whenever they went on sale for $2 each!
I just tried playing one from December 2002, and it played fine from beginning to end in my most finicky player.
Full burn, too. Around 4.3 GB. Pioneer 105.

[dcsos]

did you try other brands burned by your PIONEER106
that were put away at about the same time..or are these 6, or 5 unique?

[slacker]

Threads like this just crack me up. I get sucked into the analog vs digital (DIGITAL IS BETTER MARKETING CRAP) thing a couple of years ago because of my sizable collection of vhs home videos and all the marketing hype about vhs deteriorating and, here I am, worrying about the viability of my 6 month old burned dvds? It kills me! My 25 year old VHS videos from 1980 STILL PLAY PERFECTLY with ABSOLUTELY NO deterioration and here I'm worrying about my burned DVDs lasting 1 year? I frakkin give up!

AFAIK, we all got suckered into this game by some advertising conjobs and marketing momentum. And I, for one, am going to call it quits on a super serious level and sit it out until some real technology comes along. My IMPORTANT video stays on tape and my recordings of Seinfeld can go on DVD where it can happily die off into the sunset.

These are child's toys. I'm going to go back to my table saw, double compound miter saw, and chisels, and create some real works of ART. Look me up when something meaty comes along! Chisel and stone is the only way to go! Just my opinion!

[Adder_78]

You're drawing false conclusions.

The verification that the discs works just fine on the burner really supports this too. If the disc was "bad" it would not work on ANY reader or burner.

Well that is not fact. It is not that simple.

It is that simple.

So right back at ya'

From all that has been said, the lasers are both aged and the lenses have been ruined by repetitive use of abrasive lens cleaner discs. The discs are fine, the lasers and lenses are in subpar condition. Lasers can and will die relatively fast, while discs will easily outlast dozens and dozens of players/readers.

Of course, this assumes you discs were good to begin with, and maintained properly. There has been no mention of a series of quality tests being performed on the discs in the first place. Nor any mention of the storage conditions of the discs. Any scratches or film on the surface will make the discs less reflective.

Reading a good disc is all about reflectivity. You need to read a clean media, and you need to have a clean/powerful reader. Dirty/scratched discs, scratched laser lenses and wussy lasers won't cut it.

No, it is not that simple. Yes lasers can die, and yes those are weakening within time, but it's still not the point. There is lots of differences between writers/readers, even with new laser. Some can read better than others. That is the fact. The power of the laser diode is also very important factor. Some drives use little bit more power than others and can that way do better job with reading the discs etc. Some writers/drives (new ones, so don't blame time issue here ) can not handle higher error rates than standard says, and some can. Drives has differences, even from same manufacturer/model.

I understand your point but it wont cover the whole thing, so it's not a fact

[slacker]

Great article on longevity...

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=f10213c9-aa49-4b78-9993-71b50c9d5824

[ROF]

Dismantle drive, blow out with air. Gently swab lens with alcohol. That'll clean it.

Good directions, but please PLEASE make sure to use a dry swab afterwards to make sure any remaining alcohol, dirt, or smears are removed from the lens. You can cause some real damage by not following that last step.

Commercial Lens cleaning discs are not good for players or recorders. Why they still manufacture them I do not know. they will sometimes work in helping to remove dust and dirt, but they can scratch or deposit extra dirt and grime upon your lens. The best method is to manually clean your lens.

In most drives, once you remove the outershell the lens will be exposed. Make sure to avoid any extreme heat or direct sunlight upon the lens. I've actually seen this, so I'm going to warn you, Do not use a hair dryer to blow the dirt and debris out. You will cause more damage then you'll fix.

Do not use any water or abrasive cleaners only isopropyl alcohol to clean the lens and make sure to use a dry swab afterwards.

[gadgetguy]

I was once told that cotton swabs were one of the worst things you can do to a lens. Is there any validity to that statement? (I've been using foam swabs but they're alot more expensive than q-tips).

[ROF]

I've used both. I prefer long handled cotton swabs, but so long as you aren't reusing the swabs over and over I've seen no difference. The foam swabs tend to leave more residue from my observations though.

[Seeker47]

Threads like this just crack me up. I get sucked into the analog vs digital (DIGITAL IS BETTER MARKETING CRAP) thing a couple of years ago because of my sizable collection of vhs home videos and all the marketing hype about vhs deteriorating and, here I am, worrying about the viability of my 6 month old burned dvds? It kills me! My 25 year old VHS videos from 1980 STILL PLAY PERFECTLY with ABSOLUTELY NO deterioration and here I'm worrying about my burned DVDs lasting 1 year?

AFAIK, we all got suckered into this game by some advertising conjobs and marketing momentum.

I think you raise some important points, slacker. The DVD storage technology -- at best -- is just too young to have compiled much of a track record yet. It's all guesstimates, and who can say for sure ? I mean, think about it: lose a few 1's & 0's and you're completely screwed ! With analog tape, you can lose parts of it, or have parts of it degrade, but if it was good tape well preserved you stand a good chance of being able to salvage most of the contents.

Studio masters of your favorite albums (which are typically preserved with the degree of care studios give to the negatives of feature films, at least ever since the enduring commercial value of film libraries was established), are supposed to last at least 25 years, and maybe a lot longer. And we know that vinyl LPs can be good for several decades, at least.

As you noted, videocassettes (properly stored) have a proven* longevity. I have some that are around the 20 year mark also, in pretty good shape. These 25 - 50 year estimates for digital media are questionable, or at worst possibly laughable. (The "obsolescence" or near disappearance of the recording / playing gear for any particular technology is another matter.)

Bottom Line: If anyone reading this has anything on TAPE which is critical, or Rare / out-of-print, or irreplaceable, or which they just don't want to ever lose, Don't Get Rid of Them ! If you do, I think there's an outstanding chance you will regret it, some day.

But, in the meantime, Transfer Away ! It won't hurt anything to have some digital backup for whatever you want to save. Just don't bet the ranch on those silver discs being your ultimate archival answer.

[slacker]

Thanks seeker47.

To preserve the video as reliably as possible I decided to go with DVCAM tapes. Someone IMPORTANT said that when all is said and done the only two editing formats out there going forward will be DV and MPEG. So...

DVCAM tapes. I'm placing my bets on DV camcorders and tape decks NOT going anywhere anytime soon!

[ybeard]

Sheesh, think about it... Remember back when floppy drives were actually used in machines? How often were floppies unreadable in drives other than the one they were formatted on? As a computer tech, trust me, it happened all the time.

The likelihood is that your Pioneer 106d wasn't in the greatest of shape when you burned it and that's why they won't work in other machines and generally DO work in the original Pioneer.

[lordsmurf]

I was once told that cotton swabs were one of the worst things you can do to a lens. Is there any validity to that statement? (I've been using foam swabs but they're alot more expensive than q-tips).

There is not any validity to that statement. Cotton swabs are a basic tool used everyday in the electronics and photo cleaning industry. You can screw up anything if you press too hard. Foam over cotton is mostly a myth. Both are quite abrasive at that small level.

The only time to avoid cotton is when you're cleaning mechanical parts, for fear of leaving behind strands. But with cleaning this drive, if you're worried, just give it a final gust of canned air a minute or so after you're done.

[gadgetguy]

There is not any validity to that statement. Cotton swabs are a basic tool used everyday in the electronics and photo cleaning industry.

Thanks, I always suspected that was the case, but haven't wanted to risk it.

[bolandj]

I have the same problem. I made a bunch of DVD's one year ago and they played on my burner, desktop players and others players. I went to copy and/or play them one month ago and discovered that I can't play them on anything. I can put them in either the Pioneer A09 or the Pioneer A05 in my computer and they won't play but I can do an explore and see the files and folders. I try to copy to hard drive and some do and some don't and if I am successful, they don't play from the hard drive. I had made copies for a few others last year and asked to get them back. Same problem with them and the people I got them back from said the same thing...they wouldn't play now.

I don't remember the brand as I tried several different ones at the time. It may have been Maxell or Memorex. Running DVD Identifier gives me the name Interaxia AG ... VDSPMSAB01

These are all white printable DVD -R media. I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

I also made recordings on Fry's GC at the same time and those still work.
I kept the bad discs in the black DVD boxes in a cabinet in my basement so the environment has been constant most of the year... not cold, not hot. Oh, a finished basement. In my computer room. So, sunlight and heat are not an issue.

Unfortunately, I did not same my files or tapes so I am at a loss. We are talking about 25 - 30 discs, all different program material. These were all burned on the A05 which has been recording fine since. I printed the labels on the Epson R300. The center of the dvd's has a white band right from the center, also.

What has happened???

[Lord_Fulavit]

piano, my dear boy, I'm sure I know your problem. Sounds to me like cat dander has gotten into your laser and caused your buns to become tainted and faulty. Before you say that i'm way off here because you don't own a cat nor has one ever been in your home, I must inform you i'm a dvd burning veteran. I've burned more dvd media then Mc Donald's has sold hamburgers and my expertise is unparalelled. Cat dander is the cause and you must get rid of that contagious beast before any more movies become curropt. The human society is my best suggestion.

Adder- my dearest chum, your explanation is so intelligent and makes the most sense, however, you simply aren't as seasoned as I am when it comes to anything related to dvd burning, video editing, or choking chicken. What I say is correct and your statements mean nothing. Cat dander is the final ruling!

[piano632]

Sounds to me like cat dander has gotten into your laser and caused your buns to become tainted and faulty. Before you say that i'm way off here because you don't own a cat nor has one ever been in your home, I must inform you i'm a dvd burning veteran. I've burned more dvd media then Mc Donald's has sold hamburgers and my expertise is unparalelled. Cat dander is the cause and you must get rid of that contagious beast before any more movies become curropt.

Actually, I do own a cat, but he's staying

[lordsmurf]

Sounds to me like cat dander has gotten into your laser and caused your buns to become tainted and faulty. Before you say that i'm way off here because you don't own a cat nor has one ever been in your home, I must inform you i'm a dvd burning veteran. I've burned more dvd media then Mc Donald's has sold hamburgers and my expertise is unparalelled. Cat dander is the cause and you must get rid of that contagious beast before any more movies become curropt.

Actually, I do own a cat, but he's staying

While I have a feeling this was intended as a joke post, it's really quite plausible. Optical electronics are magnets for dust and hair. If you have animals, shed yourself, or have a dusty home/office, it's likely that all the lenses around you are dirty. Dirt on a laser lens can cause the laser to die away faster.

[Alan69]

The more likely issue is your lasers are later in their life cycle. Or they need a good cleaning.

The verification that the discs works just fine on the burner really supports this too. If the disc was "bad" it would not work on ANY reader or burner.

If another burner can still write but won't read these then it's very unlikely to be laser power. Plenty of surplus on a working burner.


Tons of possible reasons too. Warping that's still within the Pioneer's ability but not the Liteon and others. Unstable dye darkening. About any other thing to do with a disc really, they may have just barely been readable on the other drives in the first place. If they were really working on the other drives in the first place, you can't just check one or two and assume they all were fine.. Change 5 or 10 percent over a year as they stabalize and you get nothing on the other drives, and they might still be just as readable on the Pioneer 50 years from now..

There aren't any real guarantees, multiple copies in different locations on different media and checking on a regular basis and regenerating replacements for any bad copies is about all you can do. And still if a good sized mountain hits the Earth your copies are gone and you're dead.

Also remember that if you are only just now pulling it out to see it to check on it, you probably weren't ever really going to look at it again anyway..