DVD-AR Audio Recording Tutorial

[Disco Makberto]

Hi, there!

Is there a DVD-AR Audio Recording Tutorial on this site or anywhere else on the Internet? I am interested in learning how to record PCM and MP3's (if possible) on a DVD-AR disc. Please note that I am interested in audio on DVD Audio Recordable discs and not on audio on DVD Video Recordable discs.

Best to all,

CA Lacaye
discomakberto at megamixers dot com dot uk

P.S.: I couldn't find such a tutorial here.

[Kurt S]

There is no such difference as a DVD audio recordable and DVD video recordable, it's how the data is put on the disc.

No real trick to burning MP3's to disc, just tell the burner your making a data disc and put the MP3's on it.

To create a true dvd audio disc is a little more complicated and way more expensive.

Here's an article about DVD audio - http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/3487.cfm

Here's where you can get software to burn DVD audio discs. - http://www.discwelder.com/

[Disco Makberto]

Hello, Kurt!

Thanks for your reply.

I am a bit confused here. If I want to record audio (whether 44/11 PCM or MP3's) on a DVD-Video disc, don't I have to include something that satisfy the video requirement such a photos, still MPEG's, etc. so that this DVD-Video disc be compatible with all DVD players that play DVD-Video discs? While I understand that it is technically possible to record audio on a DVD-Video disc with nothing else, no photos, no still MPEG's, not even recording a black image, this disc will not be readable by DVD players that play DVD-Video discs.

On the other hand, if I understand correctly, if I record audio on a DVD-Audio disc, I can record just audio and nothing else, and this disc is compatible with all DVD players that play DVD-Audio discs.

Please note that I am not talking about cross-compatability here. Audio recorded on a DVD-Audio disc is not compatible with a DVD players that only play DVD-Video discs. Conversely, audio recorded on a DVD-Video disc is not compatible with DVD players that only play DVD-Audio discs.

If anybody knows otherwise, please advice.

C Albert L
discomakberto at megamixers dot co dot uk

[Kurt S]

Many players can play MP3's that are burned to DVD but not all, so if compatability is an issue with all players I would stay away from this method.

PCM 44.1khz audio that is found on CD's is not a compatable format for DVD's . You will have to use a program that will convert it to a compatable format. I pointed you to the Discwelder site. These programs will create a true DVD 5.1 surround or 2 channel stereo compatable audio DVD disc but the pricing starts at $500 and that's a little spendy for the average consumer. This type of true audio DVD is the type you are reffering to that needs a still picture to go with the audio track.

Another alternative would be DVD audio creator. It will only give you 2 channel audio but the price i beleive is less then $50 and much easier to use as well. It will create a fully compliant DVD with audio on it. Have a look here - http://www.sonic.com/products/Professional/DVDA/quicklook.aspx

[Cornucopia]

The 44.1kHz sample rate isn't compatible with DVD-Video format, but it is compatible with the DVD-Audio format.

The DVD-AR format is a different beast that still hasn't seen the consumer light of day. That's what that article was referring to. Do not confuse this with the DVD-Audio format. While DVD-AR would never be seen on a store-bought/factory stamped disc (and DVD-Audio would), both formats can make use of the same recordable DVD-R/RW or DVD+R/RW media (maybe even DVD-RAM media). The difference is in the logical file and directory structure and in the muxing layout and content types.

What you want (specifically for compatiblity) is to record a DVD-Audio formatted disc (possibly with DVD-Video compatibility as well for universailty). Apps to do this are:
Sonic DVDAudio Creator ($$$$)
Minnetonka discWelder (low, med, & hi versions)
DVD-Audio Tools (freeware!)

Other posters were giving you the option of putting standard mp3-type files as generic data on a recordable DVD. This is playable in many players, but not all and they're not standardized in their support.

Scott

[Disco Makberto]

Hello, Scott!

I am trying to figure everything out and decide on something, so thanks for your help. In the meantime, what is the difference between a DVD-AR disc and a DVD+-RW disc formatted as DVD-Audio? Aren't they the same?

Until soon,

C. Albert Lacaye
discomakberto at megamixers dot co dot uk

[daphy]

after reading this I´m a little confused:

DVD-Video and DVD-Audio (without any protection stuff) follow the ISO standard - sector size 2048 ( am I right?) -> so they are basically the same.
One use the VIDEO_TS folder the other the AUDIO_TS folder -> hybrid (which often can be found) using both

What is DVD-AR then? A new media? I think this has nothing to do with DVD-Video or DVD-Audio at all?!?

[Disco Makberto]

Hello, Daphy!

No, DVD-Video discs and DVD-Audio discs are not the same. If I understand correctly (though I admit that I could be wrong), both discs have video and audio sections. However, if you are using a standalone player, in order to read DVD-Video discs, you need to include audio and video (even if the video is just a black screen). On the other hand, if you are using a standalone player, in order to read DVD-Audio discs, you don't have to include video on the disc and record the whole disc only with audio. Please note that some machines can only read DVD-Video discs and others just DVD-Audio discs, there are not that many can read both.

To summarize, if you want to record audio on a DVD-Video, you need to include "something" on the video section. However, if you want to record audio on a DVD-Audio, you don't have to include any video (but you can if you will up to a point).

It is worth mentioning that a DVD-Audio has higher capabilities for audio so as to being able to include full surround and stuff. Conversely, a DVD-Video has more recording time for video.

As for DVD-AR, I think this is the same as DVD-Audio, but in a recordable disc, hence the name DVD-Audio Recordable.

Best,

CAL
discomakberto at megamixers dot co dot uk

[daphy]

Hello, Daphy!

No, DVD-Video discs and DVD-Audio discs are not the same. If I understand correctly (though I admit that I could be wrong), both discs have video and audio sections. However, if you are using a standalone player, in order to read DVD-Video discs, you need to include audio and video (even if the video is just a black screen). On the other hand, if you are using a standalone player, in order to read DVD-Audio discs, you don't have to include video on the disc and record the whole disc only with audio. Please note that some machines can only read DVD-Video discs and others just DVD-Audio discs, there are not that many can read both.

To summarize, if you want to record audio on a DVD-Video, you need to include "something" on the video section. However, if you want to record audio on a DVD-Audio, you don't have to include any video (but you can if you will up to a point).

It is worth mentioning that a DVD-Audio has higher capabilities for audio so as to being able to include full surround and stuff. Conversely, a DVD-Video has more recording time for video.

As for DVD-AR, I think this is the same as DVD-Audio, but in a recordable disc, hence the name DVD-Audio Recordable.

Best,

CAL
discomakberto at megamixers dot co dot uk

I agree with 100% but back to the media view of both discs, they both depend on the ISO standard ISO
some resources

a chart of possible streams:

Norm Samplingrate (kHz) Channel max. Datarate

LPCM - 44-192 - 6/2 - 9,6 Mbit/s
PPCM - 44-192 - 6/2 - 9,6 Mbit/s
Dolby Digital - 44, 48 - 6 - 448 kbit/s
DTS - 44-192 - 6/2 - 3,01 Mbit/s
MPEG-1/-2 Layer2 - 44, 48 - 6 - 384/ 912 kbit/s
Atrac3 - 44, 48 - 6 - 750 kbit/s
MP3pro - 44, 48 - 2 - 320 kbit/s
AAC - 44-96 - 6 - 1,5 Mbit/s

[Cornucopia]

Sorry, NO, they're not the same way either of you are thinking.

Let's break this down...

1st, you have your different media types:

(Store bought, factory pressed)DVD-ROM
DVD-R (authoring)
DVD-R (general)
DVD-RW
DVD+R
DVD+RW
DVD-RAM
...and dual-layer versions of these (won't go into 8cm versions for now)

2nd, you have your sector sizes:

2048
...you could also have a 2054/2064 sector size on media that includes encryption-DVDROM,DVD-Ra, but we won't go into that right now

3rd, you have your disc formatting/filesystems:

UDF-bridge (combo of micro-UDF v1.02 and ISO9660--with or without Joliet/Apple extensions)
...<in special cases>UDF v1.5 (on DVD-RAM?), or possibly UDF v2.0
...others are possible, but not sanctioned and prone to read problems

4th, you have your applications:

General raw computer data (of any file format)
DVD-Video (can exist on all media)
DVD-Audio (can exist on all media)
DVD-VR (only exists on -R, -RW, -RAM media)
DVD-AR (only exists on -R, -RW, -RAM media)
DVD-SR (only exists on -R, -RW, -RAM media)
DVD+VR (only exists on +R, +RW media)
...others, like SACD and Gamecube, are proprietary and only available on stamped media, but it's all data...

pick one from column 1, one from column 2, one from column 3 and one from column 4

{Column4} applications are what's run and include the authored/formatted data inside. They are ordered via {column3}, which is sectored according to {column2}, and resides on {column1} media.

Compare the authored filetypes (and their component media types and specs) between DVD-Video (as seen on the left, https://www.videohelp.com/dvd or http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html) and DVD-Audio (http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/spec/index.shtml) and DVD-AR (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=17485175) and DVD-VR (with their .VRO files and DVD_RTAV folder).

Therefore,
you can have a DVD-Audio disc in recordable or non-recordable format. You could also have a DVD-AR disc (in recordable format only). But they are not the same. They neither have the same features, nor accept the same audio types/specs. DVD-AR is to DVD-Audio as DVD-VR is to DVD-Video!

Scott

[daphy]

okay I see

[Cornucopia]

That's cool, writing that helped me organize my understanding of the subjects..

Scott

[Disco Makberto]

Hello, Scott!

I appreciate your detailed explanation.

I have another question that nobody has been able to answer, not even people from DiscWelder...

Let me start by saying that I am interested in recording audio on DVD-RAM discs so that these discs are playable on (some) standalone multi-DVD players. As you might now, it is possible to record MP3's on DVD-RAM Data discs, and these discs are compatible with some standalone multi-DVD players. My question is, is it possible to record any other form of audio, like CD-quality audio PCM 44/16 or DVD-quality audio PCM 48/16 on DVD-RAM Data (or even Video) discs so that these discs are still compatible with some players? How do I go about this?

Of course, the easiest course to know this is by trial and error, but I have a simple but unscientific criteria to sort out multi-DVD players that could be compatible with this DVD-RAM audio disc. If a player is compatible with DVD-RAM discs and DVD Data with MP3's, it follows that this player "maybe" could read other form of data on DVD-RAM discs, like PCM Audio (recorded as data). Is this logic? Is there a better way to approach this?

So long,

CA-L
discomakberto at megamixers dot co dot uk

[daphy]

Hi Makberto,

I did some tests a while ago with a Kiss 450:
it supports AC3, DTSWAV, WAV16-24bit/48KHz, MP3 and some other formats on a DVD burned as simple data ISO.
It worked fine so maybe this is the answer for the first part of your question.

I stopped go on playing around at the point using a DVD-RAM disc as media. One final test was using a DVD-RAM with Nero´s InCD. There are so many UDF formats possible and I gave up after the second try but the player was able to show a test JPEG from this disk.

I hope this will help you any further

[Disco Makberto]

Hello, Daphy!

Thanks really very much for your very useful reply.

Indeed, that is the exact player I was thinking about, the Kiss DP-450, or the Kiss DP-500. The only other option would be the Kiss DP-1000. And only these three within the Kiss family, no more, as they are the basic ones that have ATAPI/IDE interface, and you know what we can do with that (switch drives).

I didn't know at all that the Kiss DP-450 (and conceivably the other two players, for they use the same chips) was compatible with an ISO DVD with WAV files. Wow! This is wonderful news because WAV files are uncompressed in respect to audio quality. Still, please let me know if the DP-450 can shuffle (random) the WAV files in folders or subfolders. If it does, then, absolutely, this would be my "perfect" player.

As for DVD-RAM compatabiliy, I think I can use a Panasonic DVD-RAM drive, and presto!, I will have instant compatability for DVD-RAM discs with WAV files, or so I hope.

In closing, I would like to thank you again for your help.

Take care,

Carlos Albert L.
disco makberto at megamixers dot co dot uk

[Cornucopia]

AFA criteria--I don't know of a better way. Just be methodical, and write down each test: PASS vs. FAIL with notes. Make a big table in Excel...

Start with players that are either known to accept DVD-RAM, or players that use ATAPI/IDE (so they can be swapped out with drives that do read DVD-RAM).

Since it's re-recordable, use the same batch of discs over and over, then you know it isn't a media problem.

Find a good brand of media-test for that.

Then find a software that burns to DVD-RAM, trying which versions of UDF the player supports. All DVD's are supposed to have some version of UDF on them. Start w/ v1.02 (the DVD-Video standard) and work your way up. I rarely use DVD-RAM, so can't remember OTTOMH which is standard for it, but I'm pretty sure it isn't v1.02.

Then, using SHORT filenames, burn the mp3's, then move on to AC3's, mp2's, PCM's (with and without WAV or AIFF headers/wrappers). If you're real lucky, you'll be able to do others as well (WMA, DTS, DTS-WAV, AC3-WAV, AAC, OGG, etc).

Try 48kHz first, then 44.1kHz. Try 16bit first, then 20 or 24bit. Try standard bitrates (for compressed files), then move to the upper and lower reaches of bitrate options. Try Mono & Stereo first, then try 5.1.

(I did this beforeTake a known playable MP3, and make copies and rename them to some other extensions to see which extensions it understands. Do the reverse--take the various file formats and rename them ???_EXT.MP3 to see if they're decodeable once being recognized and read.

Then do it all again with long filenames. Start with a few, and see the limit you can get in the root directory, then see if it'll read folders correctly and how many will fit in there.

Hopefully, those KISS players will fill the bill. However, I don't really believe that it's all that much trouble to author acc'd. to standards, so you may still want to make a standard DVD-Audio disc as well (for compatibility with others').

Scott

[Disco Makberto]

Addendum:

One final question, instead of using UDF on the DVD-RAM disc, why not use ISO? Some softwares from Luminex allow for this, and I am sure that there are other softwares that can accomplish this as well. As a result of it, this ISO DVD-RAM with WAV files should more compatible with the Kiss player, I suppose.

Later,

CA-L

[Cornucopia]

They shouldn't. While [UDF + ISO] is allowed, there should never be just [ISO] on a DVD. Every optical disc, from DVD onward (as well as packet written CD-R/RWs) is supposed to use UDF. ISO is just there--particularly with DVD-Video titles--as insurance of backward compatibility with VERY OLD players (from the '90s). Anything recent should be reading the UDF filesystem (whether software or hardware).

ISO has too many limits to be useful in modern machines.

Scott

[Disco Makberto]

Scott,

Could you please let me know of a software(s) that can write via [UDF+ISO]? This would save me some steps as otherwise I would need to create individual discs for test purposes, each one with ISO or UDF only.

The Kiss DP-1000 is relatively old. I think from 1999 or 2000 or something like that. Perhaps that is the reason why, as Daphy was mentioning, it is compatible with some DVD Data discs with ISO.

Daphy,

Do you think you will be able to test your Kiss machine with random playing for WAV files with folders and subfolders recorded on a DVD Data? I am not in a hurry to know this, so if you test it in the future, please be so kind to E-mail me at my address below.

DVD-RAM discs:

The fact that DVD-RAM discs are not widely compatible with standalone players or computer drives is exactly the reason why I like them the most. I am really tired of this perpetual lending of compatible discs to friends (not to mention girlfriends). So, with DVD-RAM discs, particularly with the cartridge-enclosed ones, I am sure that this constant habit of borrowing from me will be reduced almost to zero.

Best to all,

CA-Lacaye
discomakberto(at)megamixers(dot)co(dot)uk

[daphy]

I am sure that this constant habit of borrowing from me will be reduced almost to zero.

Daphy,

Do you think you will be able to test your Kiss machine with random playing for WAV files with folders and subfolders recorded on a DVD Data? I am not in a hurry to know this, so if you test it in the future, please be so kind to E-mail me at my address below.

Fast answer without further testing:
Random works on DP-450 (older than DP-1000, I bought one of the first avaible in Europe at the end of 2003 -> 1999/2000 nobody even dream fromsuch kind of player :P ) the same way as replaying a MP3. If random works on folders I have to do another test (next week, sorry I am on a business trip the next days)
PLZ report back if someone has found a UDF format on DVD-RAM which is supported by the KiSS DVD-Player

[Disco Makberto]

Hello, Daphy!

It is good news to know that the DP-1000 is newer than the DP-450. The reason is because some of the earliest DP-450 players were not compatible with WAV, and while yours is one of the first available players, unless you updated the firmware, I am sure it wasn't from the first batch.

Yes, please, Daphy. Please let me/let us know about playing WAV at random from folders and subfolders once you return from your trip.

Scott ought to be telling us about a combo UDF+ISO for DVD-RAM shortly, so let's wait and see.

In closing, enjoy your trip and don't work too hard. (:

Carlos Albert L.
"Disco Makberto"

[Cornucopia]

I'd go with Nero (but probably not Express--use the full BurningROM). I have v.5.5.10.42 and it gives me these options for DVD (won't include DiscCopy or Bootable variations):

DVD-ROM (ISO)
DVD-Video
DVD-ROM (UDF)
DVD-ROM (UDF/ISO)

If you choose one with UDF, it'll have a panel that allows you to choose the UDF partition version type (you want "Physical") and version #:

v1.02
v1.50
v2.01

Now, I can't say whether Nero will allow all those options given -RAM media. It obviously checks media type, as it wouldn't allow any of those options to be available if you were using a CD-R as media.

Good luck,

Scott

[Disco Makberto]

Hello, Scott!

Apparently, basic Nero won't allow me to record an ISO DVD-RAM disc. I can use InCD from the full version to work with DVD-RAM discs, but then again, it will only record UDF or FAT32 DVD-RAM discs.

For some reason unknown to me, there are some softwares that can write ISO DVD-RAM discs but mainly within the Linux platform. I am still looking for one that works within Windows.

Until soon,

CA-L
Disco Makberto

[Cornucopia]

InCD does "packet writing", to allow multiple session drag-n-drop. Packet writing is based, not on ISO9660, but on UDF v1.5. So I'm not surprised that that is what it is giving you.

You might be able to find a Linux app that does that, but it really isn't going by the standards. From what I understand of the spec, DVD-RAM isn't supposed to be anything but UDF v1.5 (or a Bridge/Combo version that includes UDF 1.5).

Good luck, but I wouldn't waste much time chasing that dream.

Scott

[Disco Makberto]

Hello, Scott!

Though I might be taking a dead-end route, I don't want to give up on my "custom-made" compatible DVD-RAM disc as of now. In the pursuit of that, I found a software that I think could handle ISO DVD-RAM discs. It is Akram Media Creator 1.6, and check it out here:

http://www.akramsoft.com/amc.html

Where it is entitled "Create Data DVD", it reads:

* Records DVD+R/RW, DVD-R/RW, DVD-RAM discs on-the-fly
* Supports ISO9660 Level 1, 2 and Joliet file systems for recording DVD discs.

So I think this is the solution. Still, as I said earlier, there is still some possibity that even with this disc the Kiss player does not support it. Well...that is the beauty of experimentating, though: some times you fail, but by doing so, you are approaching your goal more and more until you reach it.

In closing, let's see what Daphy has to say when he comes back from his trip.

Until later,

CA-Lacaye
Disco Makberto

[Cornucopia]

Let us know how it goes. My guess is that it will let you record ISO9660, but only as a Bridge disc, that is--in combination with the also/always written UDF partition.

Scott

[jman98]

It's buried deep in this section, but...
Disco Makberto - there is no such thing as a player that plays DVD Audio and not DVD Video. All DVD Audio players play regular DVD Video discs. If you know of such a player, I'd love to see a link for it. I can't imagine why it would exist unless maybe some high end audiophile company created one. I have never heard of such a player and I do keep up a little with audiophile equipment.

[Cornucopia]

It's part of the spec to have Audio-only players. Specifically, car/mobile players would lack most "visual" ways of interacting with any menus, so there must be provision for a simpler form of track selection.
Haven't done any searching on the Net yet, but I would bet money that at least one of the luxury auto makers (and their consumer media electronics suppliers) would have made one of these decks. No, they're not really for home use, but I think they're out there.

Scott


>>>>>>>>>
edit: ...Think "Fancified CD Walkman"...

[Disco Makberto]

Jman98,

Reportedly, the "2004 Acura TL with ELS sound system" mobile/car player is compatible with DVD-Audio and not DVD-Video. Please read here:

http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92752

Scott, I accept your bet, did I win a dollar? ( :

C Albert L
Disco Makberto

[daphy]

Hello, Daphy!

I hope that your business trip has been successful.

So, Daphy, please let me know, does the Kiss DP-450 play DVD WAV files in random from folders and subfolders?

I have been able to find out that the Kiss DP-450 supports ISO Level 2, so you don't have to be restricted to ISO Level 1. As you know, Level 2 allows for longer filenames.

Waiting for your reply,

CA-Lacaye
discomakberto at megamixers dot co dot uk

Kiss DP-450 supports ISO Level 2
on DVD-RAM?

as for the test with randomplay, I will try it out maybe this evening - tomorrow I have depart again