Stuttering at the end of a DVD, but using TYG02??

[Richard_G]

I'm posting this in the Newb/General section because although not a Newb topic, it will get to more people under the General heading than if I tuck it away in one of the more specialised Forums. Anyway, Newbs may learn from it too!

Just found an interesting problem that may be worth keeping in mind. I've completed a project that has a total running time of 1 hour 23 minutes. Using Ulead DVD Workshop 2, I authored with 28 chapters, a main menu, scene select menus, etc. All of the files I input to DVDWS were in DV .avi format.

Using 256kb AC3 audio and setting the video encoding settings for best quality, I ended up with completed DVD folders that came to 5.7Gb. As expected, too big for a single DVDR. No problem, run them through DVDShrink and make them fit. Use Deep Analysis and EAC for best quality, create ISO and burn with DVDDecrypter using an almost new Pioneer 109. That gives me my first copy and Decrypter can be use to generate further ones. Played the DVD and noticed a problem.

About 10 seconds from the end, the video stuttered! Now usually this is a sign of poor quality media but I've used TYGO2 media. I suppose even TY can have a bad day and produce the occasional dodgy disc so burn another copy. Use MCC dye Verbatim this time. Same thing. Tried both discs in three different players, a Sony DVD/VHS combo, an old Wharfedale M5 and a Bush of some description belonging to a friend. Result? The same stuttering at precisely the same place on both discs on all players.

Must be the files themselves I thought, so I played the original (unShrunk) files off the hard drive in PowerDVD. No problem, no stuttering. Played both discs in the Liteon DVD drive in my computer, no stuttering. WTF??? Even though I had used what are generally accepted as being the best two brands of disc available, I was having the sort of problems usually reserved for those that simply buy the cheapest.

Shrink the files again but this time using a custom size setting in Shrink and making it 100Mb smaller than the DVD5 default. Burn to another TY disc, play it, stutters in the same place...... This is getting beyond a joke!

I finally re-encoded the whole project in DVDWS, setting the encode rate accurately (using the wonderful Videohelp bitrate calculator) to almost fill the disc. This time, no stuttering on any machine. But the question is, was Shrink doing something strange to create the stuttering? If it was, was it because I used Deep Analysis and EAC (which I don't usually). I normally burn to the full default DVD5 size in Shrink, yet on this occasion, even dropping 100Mb off still gave all the symptoms of poor quality media. Although, cutting Shrink out of the process cured the problem.....

or was this because DVDWS encoded the second attempt slightly smaller still and that's why I don't have the problem? Do I care, Nope, I've got to get 50 copies of this project burned by Saturday

[lordsmurf]

Your method for encoding is rather poor. The Ulead MC plug-in is not that great a usage of the MC engine. And then DVD Shrink is a transcoder. You get better quality doing the correct bitrate the first time around. This is not what DVD Shrink was made for, nor the transcode technology.

What is "stuttered"? Video is just digital data. The dye and media cannot change the information. PowerDVD fixes it? Sounds like the interlace was wrong on the encoded discs!

If you used proper methods, this would have never happened. Encode video files separately. Only author in authoring software. Do it correct the first time around, none of this DVD Shrink business.

TYG02? Be sure it's legit and not that fake garbage.

This is absolutely a "newbie" topic. Very common beginner mistakes.

Follow this advice, and you won't have issues like this ever again. Good luck.

[Richard_G]

Ouch, Despite having been (successfully) creating digital video projects since 1998 (before that I did them on tape!), you've just made me feel like I'm the newb. Then you ask what stuttered video is making yourself look like the newb! Stuttered video is just that, video that stutters! The errors occured right at the very end of the project during scrolling credits. The smoothly scrolling credits stopped scrolling, jumped about a bit and then continued. Background soundtrack was not affected and played cleanly. Interlace my arse.....

Proper methods? If i wasn't aware that you are the man that wrote the excellent guides on digitalfaq.com, I'd think you were someone that had been doing it for a couple of weeks, had achieved one success and then thought you knew it all!

My usual methodoloy is to transfer 3 DV .avi streams (shot simultaneously, same subject, different camera angles) to HD. Synchronise them with each other in Ulead Mediastudio Pro and edit to cut (well, I find cuts too sharp so do a 10 frame crossfade on each transition from one camera angle to another) from one shot to the other. Add any titles and effects and save as DV .avi. Import the DV files into DVDWS, create chapter points, menus, etc and let DVDWS create the finished DVD. These projects are normally no more than an hour long, so custmoised best quality settings (9500 max, 8000 average, 4000 min, 2 pass VBR) are fine. Contrary to your views, others have stated that the customised Mainconcept encoder used by Ulead is one of the best. Being fortunate enough to live in a PAL country, I can get finished DVDs that appear no different in quality to the original DV tapes.

The only difference this time was that the project was that bit longer. Rather than change settings that I know work, I figured that I could do as I normally do and then Shrink down to fit. Something I have never done before but have seen numerous people suggest on here. I normally only use Shrink to backup commercial DVDs so know it does a pretty good job down to about 80%. All I'm saying is that it looks like DVDShrink MAY be creating some sort of errors, possibly it just doesn't like scrolling credits??

The TYGO2 discs are from svp.co.uk, one of the sponsors of this site and one of the few suppliers that give a guarantee on media. If they say they are genuine, they are (and at £50 a 100 they better be). They scan perfectly (although I know you don't trust scans, neither do I normally but I felt I had to check). Do you think I might have some fake MCC discs as well then. Stop treating me like a child......

Right that's got that off my chest, I suppose I'll now get a warning for argueing with a mod......

[guns1inger]

There are no guarantees. Even the best media can have a bad day. Even the same brnad from within the same spindle can vary from time to time. Some media works better with some burners than others. I still use Ritek because it never gives me a bad burn on my NEC burner. TY, on the other hand, has a 50% failure rate (way too high).

Have you tried using DVD Info Pro to scan the disk for errors ?

[TooLFooL]

well if i read correctly, the disks stuttered in home player, but same disks did NOT stutter in pc's drive? that's weird. for the record, i've used DVDShrink to backup ALL my dvd's and i've ALWAYS used the 'deep analysis' feature since it was introduced and NEVER had that problem. best damn free program i've EVER seen!

[Richard_G]

Apart from the fact that I was highly confused, the reason for posting this was to flag what might be a bug in DVDShrink. There have been numerous posts from people saying that their backed up DVDs stutter towards the end. Everyone (including me) has immediately blamed poor quality media. Even when the person asking has tried a number of different types. My point is that it may have nothing to do with the media, it might be Shrink that is causing the problem.

In my case, this appeared to have been confirmed by the fact that my DVD-ROM drive played the discs without errors in PowerDVD. I have since tried playing them in the same drive but using Windows Media Player and the stuttering is there just as it is on the standalones. This still points to errors in the files, whether caused by the burn, media or Shrink. The unShrunk files play perfectly in every player I have tried (PowerDVD, Windows MediPlayer, ATI MMC 8.9), it is only after they have been Shrunk that the problem occurs. Maybe PowerDVD is more forgiving and better at correcting any errors. I'll be the first to admit it may be a bad batch of TY discs, but as I tried using MCC as well, that would negate that argument. Discs out of both of these packs have been used for other things without any errors or problems.

In the past I always used Ritek discs until I started getting problems with G04 ones. I've used G05 Riteks for day to day stuff and haven't had a problem. My concern is that the last time I did a project this one, using Ritek G04 discs, out of 60 copies that I did, 2 would not play on standalones. For my paying customers, that isn't good enough. I went to TY as everyone assured me they were the best you can get. I want every single disc I produce to be playable on any and every standalone someone tries to play them in. They are paying customers after all!

[budz]

I've never used DVD SHRINK to compress video files after using TMPGE PLUS.....if you set the correct parameters in TMPGE PLUS for your project there is no need to use DVD SHRINK to compress your video files....all you're doing is transcoding the video again..... the process that you're using could be why you have stuttering at the tail end of the disc.....I've used TMPGE PLUS to encode then use TMPGE DVD AUTHOR.....then burn with NERO.....as mentioned use the proper process and you'll be fine....I started out with using ULEAD Movie Factory and realized there were other software and methods that were better to use which provided more options & better video quality...

DVD SHRINK in my opinion is just good to use to backup movies.....for video projects that you make menus, chapters, etc. use a video encoder like TMPGE PLUS or CCE & use TMPGE DVD AUTHOR.....just my 2 freaking cents!!!!

[Richard_G]

it seems everyone has the same comment, don't use Shrink to do this! As I've already said, normally I wouldn't but as I've seen no end of people suggesting this as a way to get round a DVD project that is just a little too big to fit on a disc. It seemed, originally, to be a simpler way of doing it than changing my, tried and tested, encoding settings. I won't be doing it again and the point of my posting this is to prevent others from doing it too.

Ulead MovieFactory does have very limited settings, as it is aimed at the lower end of the market. DVD Workshop is fully customisable, which is why it costs 6 times the price of MovieFactory (UK price for Moviefactory is £29.99, DVD Workshop is £179.99). This is also why I use it. I can use one piece of purpose designed software to do the job it is intended to do and not have to do it in stages using lots of different applications. When working on a project with the complexity of mine, the editing is what takes the time. Once the editing is completed, I just want to be able to add the chapter points and menus and leave the computer to get on with it.

Before DVD, once the editing was completed, I could save the file to hard drive and just output it to a VCR. Now everyone has DVD players and want copies in DVD format, there's far more work to do after the editing is complete. I'm probably doing this for a different reason to most on here. I have no interest in playing around with numerous bits of software, I need to be able to produce a finished DVD in a reasonable time.

[spectroelectro]

I doubt there's any bug in DVDSHrink and the problem most liekly isn't Ulead DVD Movie Factory 2. More likely, you've simply written too much data to the DVD-R. My experience indicates that when you write out past roughly 3900 megs you run into potential problems with stuttering video playback. These problems become acute whenyou get past 4000 megs and become almost guaranteed when you get past 4200 megs. What probably hapening is that error correction on the servos on the read head of the DVD player that far out toward the edge of the disc can't operate fast enough to account fo rthe inertia of the read head.

I've alos experienced chronic problems copying DVD's more than about 3900 megs in size. Reliably writing data that far out toward the edge of the disc gets iffy.

[gadgetguy]

If you mount the iso that you created with Shrink, how does it play? (In other words play the iso directly from the hard drive).

[Richard_G]

gadgetguy, I thought that would be a good idea too, but by then I'd already deleted the iso! If I'm not going to get reliable playback from it, it's no use to me.

spectroelectro, I have always burned discs to the edge and never had a problem before. I've backed up every commercial DVD I own and have always left Shrink to the default DVD5 setting (4450 ish if I remember correctly). Every one of those has always played back perfectly OK except when I tried to use some very dubious cheapo discs I found at a computer fair. All the others have been on Ritek, MCC or TY discs and didn't suffer.

I would have expected manufacturers to concentrate on disc reliability rather than increasing burn speeds. 16x discs only achieve 16x at the very end of the burn so what is the point?

[lordsmurf]

Well, "stutter" isn't a video term. That's just one you made up. While I have no trouble with layman's terms (I like to use them myself, sometimes), it may need more desciption to narrow it down. "Stutter" could means any number of things, be it interlace errors, pulldown errors, framerate errors, etc.

spectroelectro, if you cannot burn the entire disc full without errors, the media is bad. Get something better. If you're using the best media, look at the player or burner for issues causing this problem.

Having gotten a more thorough explanation of the "stutter" effect, it may still be DVD SHRINK corrupting the interlace. I have actually seen this error before, while trying to back up my Stargate SG1 Season 5 DVD boxset (other family members not as careful with my expensive discs as I am). All other seasons were fine, and if I remember, it was only 1-2 discs in that box that did it, regardless of version or computer. It was also an issue of jumping ahead and back in time, which sounds 100% identical to what you just described. Something about the encoding is likely the cause, and the transcode just trashes it.

There is a slight chance this could be player/media incompatibilities, but I'm not exactly sure what would cause it.

And again, you'll fair far better off in the end if you use a separate program for each task. Don't use "quickie" version plug-ins to do the work for you. Video is a finicky beast, and you only get out what you put in (meaning effort and time, not necessarily money).

[Richard_G]

That's more like it, a Lordsmurf reply that is helpfull. I think you are probably right in that Shrink was somehow screwing up the interlace. At least you now know what I'm talking about and I'm pleased you've actually seen it before.

I don't think it's a player media thing as the same effect happened on three different players, although this is only the second time I've used TY media. As I said, my primary aim is to be able to produce a DVD that will play properly on anything. I would have them pressed if I required enough but I'm looking at 100 maximum which wouldn't be enough to justify the cost. For this reason, going on the advice of those who know best (especially you), I went for TY. So far I've had less success than when I was using Ritek.

My problem is that I am producing a video of a stage show, two performances, each of two acts, each act being between 30 and 45 minutes long. Shot with 3 DV camcorders with a clean audio feed straight from the mixing desk recorded to VHS tape (with a video feed from one of the cameras to aid synchronisation). That means I've got 12 DV tapes and 4 VHS tapes to transfer, synchronise, edit, add titles and save as a pair of final files (one each per show). When final copies were required on VHS tape, that was where the story ended. Now they all want DVDs! I had to look around for software that would allow me to take it that one step further. I don't want to experiment with different software, I just want to be able to do the job. The software is merely the tool I have to use to take things that next step. My work is in the editing.

Do these words ring any bells?

I just want to update and re-iterate my previous review, having more extensively used the software in the past 6 months. At this point in time, it is actually now my PRIMARY authoring tool.

It has an excellent set of tools for menu creation, from something as handy as a text alignment feature (gets all those lists perfectly spaced and justified), to the more complex ability to add transitions, multi VTS and motion menus. I can create a DVD that is not only professional quality, but more professional than a lot of things I see studios upchucking onto the shelves at Best Buy or Walmart.

That's right, the words of Lordsmurf himself only a couple of weeks ago tlking about Ulead DVD Workshop. Are you saying that you use it for authoring but not encoding? So to turn what would have been a finished job a couple of years ago into a DVD, you would encode the edited footage to mpeg and then give the mpegs to DVDWS and only use that to do the authoring? Once the advanced settings have been enabled (rather than using the limited settings available as standard), the encoder has as much, if not more flexibility as any other.

[lordsmurf]

I only author in DVDWS2. Sometimes even it is not advanced enough, so I have to burn source DVDs or use an external hard drive and trek across town to a friend using DVDSP. Not much that I cannot do in DVDWS2, in terms of authoring.

For video source files, I use one of two sources. Anything from simple transfer is ATI AIW MPEG files or DVD recorder files (JVC, LiteOn, few others). For anything that was edited on the computer (from AVI source), it's an MPEG encoded in Procoder, output from Adobe Premiere.

Everything is encoded and edited prior to authoring. It does not take any extra time over an all-in-one, and I get control over everything.

DVDWS2 is not without it's flaws, however. It's encoding engine would surely be an area where it is lacking. For motion menus, I sometimes have to take special care on the interlacing (IVTC to progressive for the menus). It's fairly rigid in how it works.

Although, are you aware of the hack that allows you to interact more fully with MainConcept Encoder? There is an INI file edit you can make for that adjustment. Mostly good for bitrate control and some other precision options (but not all, not like the full MC software).

In your situation, I would have used Procoder to encode to MPEG (or merely transfer on a DVD recorder). Not quite followng what you're doing, but I'd use standard methods, regardless.

[Richard_G]

Yes, I'm aware (and have done) the ini file mod to allow me more control of the encoding settings. I have never used motion menus so any shortcomings in that area don't bother me, but all of my projects are from DV sources. I don't like mpeg at the best of times. No matter how good the source or how high the bitrate, you'll still see artifacts if you look hard enough. That s why I keep everything as DV, how can a format that only sends a full frame every 12 frames retain any quality?

So are you saying that Procoder is better than the Ulead customised Mainconcept as an mpeg encoder? Having just searched the forums, I've found 2 comparison threads. One reckoned Mainconcept was the best the other reckoned it was the worst. However, Sony Vegas, using a tweaked version of Mainconcept was up with the best. Do Sony know something Ulead don't, are they doing the same tweaks, do we care? Is anyone watching the final DVD on their TV going to be able to see any difference?

When I have finished the editing and got a final video, as far as I'm concerned I'm finished. Creating the chapter points, menus, encoding and burning are one and the same to me. A means of getting the finished video onto a medium others can play and watch. As I said, it was far simpler when I just played the video into a VCR from the output of my AIW.

[lordsmurf]

Creating the chapter points, menus, encoding and burning are one and the same to me.

Yeah, but that's a real beginner method. For higher quality and fewer problems, you eventually have to graduate to more advanced methods.

Procoder is far better than MC. Variations of the MC engines perform differently. Sony is better than Ulead, and maybe even MC's interface itself.

VCRs were harder to edit, very imprecise, and quality was lower. Not to mention things like chapter stops are impossible (unless you have something like VISS on it).

you'll still see artifacts if you look hard enough. That s why I keep everything as DV, how can a format that only sends a full frame every 12 frames retain any quality?

I think you're looking too hard, or not using adequate bitrates (or bitrate allocation to the resolution, to be more precise), as well as using sloppier encoding methods. That's part of what I've been starting here, in regards to not using authoring software encoder plug-ins.

MPEG does not only keep every "12 frames". It's compression that groups colors (JPEG based), and then uses algebra to write it. It's easier to write "10x10" instead of "1" a hundred times (and saves space by doing so). This is a bit basic, but that's essentially the method. GOP is the group, and temporal compresson logs what changes between frames (which isn't much) and then your bitrate will decide how hard the group is compression. When you squash bitrate, you're mostly smearing all the detail and color into a single shade instead of many. Again, a bit crude, but that's the basis of what's happening.

If you allow enough bitrate, nothing should be lost. Or if you're feeling super anal, do I-frame only (basically an MJPEG, more or less).

Imagine this:

1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
Big bloated file.

1x50
1x50
1x50
1x50
1x50
Smaller file.

1x50x5
Smallest file.

Now let's make it a little more complex:

1111111111222222522222222222422222222222222222232
Big bloated file.

1x10+2x6+5+2x11+4+2x18+3+2
Smaller file with proper bitrate.

Now what happens if you don't get enough bitrate?
Parts of the video is overly compressed. Data is lost.
Watch this:
1x10+2x6+5+2x30+3+2
You lost the "4", made it a "2"

Let's get even more stingy, like a VCD:
1x10+2x40
All those 3's, 4's and 5's were turned into surrounding 2's.
You lost detail, color, motion, and other important details.

By not giving yourself full control of the encoder choices, ranging from GOP to bitrate to whatever ... you endanger the quality of the final product. So MPEG is not a bad format, it's only a bad format when misused.

[Richard_G]

I hope more people are reading this thread than contributing to it. That is one of the clearest descriptions of how mpeg compression is done I've seen in a long time. However, I am fully aware of how it works as I work with it during my normal job. At work though, I'm dealing with it in order to keep something like reasonable quality within a restricted bandwidth before the mpeg stream is multiplexed with others to be modulated onto a DVB-T broadcast carrier.

I will still maintain though that mpeg, no matter how high a bitrate, will always be inferior to the source because of the amount of information that is thrown away. Whether or not the person watching it notices is another matter. Most people think MTV over digital satellite is good quality, it is absolutely horrible if you look at it subjectively.

Richard_G wrote:
Creating the chapter points, menus, encoding and burning are one and the same to me.

Yeah, but that's a real beginner method. For higher quality and fewer problems, you eventually have to graduate to more advanced methods.

This is the problem. Thinking about it, I suppoe I am a beginner. My interest in video editing started 40 years ago watching my father cutting up bits of 8mm film with a razor blade and sticking them together with tape. Turning the finished video into a DVD disc is something that has only recently become a necessity as that is the format people want the finished article on.

I get my enjoyment from the creative side of the process, the editing and, to a lesser degree, generating the menus. The rest of the process is a necessity to get it onto a playable disc. Think of it from a manufacturing perspective. I am a designer and design a product. I then pass it onto someone from the factory who makes that product. How they do it is of no interest or concern to me, just that it turns out exactly as I designed it.

I produce my video project, give it to DVDWS and it turns it into a disc. Why should there be any need to move to more advanced methods, that's why I bought the software, to do the job for me. The fact that I know how it does it and what the best settings are is a bonus. Lesser software (such as DVD MovieFactory) and DVD recorders have fixed preset quality settings, even though they are described as one hour per disc, two hours per disc, etc. I would argue that any software sold for this purpose should give the best possible quality output without the need for manual intervention. If I want to fit 1 hour 23 minutes of video onto a DVD, it should work out the optimum setting, bearing in mind what the source format is and adjusting to suit, and just do it.

Those that want to experiment with different encoders can do so, but for those of us that want to concentrate on the content, it should be possible to simply let the encoder get on with it.

[lordsmurf]

I enjoy the creative side more too.

Menu creation, especially, I'm always pushing myself on personal projects, to see what else I can do (but keeping it designed nicely, not tacky and full of bells/whistles).

Editing is still something where I'm mostly stuck in a rut, cut this, cut that, transition this, transition that. Don't have much opportunity to get fancy just yet.

Proper methods, doing one step at a time, may seem like chore, but I don't have problems at the end of the day. Just one of those things you have to do. I often listen to talk radio or a sitcom while I edit, kills the time.

I also do a lot of restoration work. Demuxing files, filtering audio, re-encoding video multiple times. Consider yourself on the fast side, even if you're "slowed down" by what I'm suggesting. This method is a cakewalk compared to the more intensive stuff.

Fixing video is also a thrill. To watch trash turn into something a bit sweeter to view/hear.

[Mayer]

Facinating read, took all of my hour of lunch to get through, good post.

[Richard_G]

Glad you enjoyed it. Although I consider myself fully proficient at the analogue capturing, DV transferring, editing, stages of the process, and can quite happily back up a commercial DVD with Shrink, the final DVD production is the bit that I'm fairly new at. I hope a few others that read this may also have leant a few things from it.