pioneer 2 pass encoding (Gshelly)

[strongbad]

gshelly,

when you ran the test from xp+ to a reduced bitrate to fit a disc perfectly, is it the same as just recording it the first time at the same bitrate? like if the 2nd pass recording from xp+ was mn27, is the result of that 2nd pass the same as if you were recording from the start at mn27 on first pass?
nobody spoke about this and i think its important.

[gshelley61]

It appears to me that the quasi two-pass method produces a better final result. Especially for high action sequences. Obviously, it's more time consuming to do it that way, though.

I've been doing some XP+ to SP tests, and the second pass SP images look fantastic. I'll have to do some more recordings, and compare them with identical recordings made with the single pass method... but from casual observation I see a difference.

[strongbad]

I've been using the 2pass step, and I think it produces a bad image. It doesnt say anything about this feature if it produces a better overall picture or not. I just used it when I first bought this because I thought it was the best way to go. I have been doing all my TV recordings with S-Vid from XP+ down to optimize mode on disc. I was never happy with the result, but figured "well if this is the best it gets.. i guess" but i have been comparing all my recordings from 531 with my 220 and my 220 recordings all look better. CLeaner images, less shadowing haze effects. The 531 looks fuzzy, soft, and not crisp.

I wish there was a more detailed documentation on this feature as to whether it really does produce the best picture.

[strongbad]

am i the only one using this feature? no other input?

[gshelley61]

I've been using it... I have not noticed a softening of the picture after re-encoding as you have mentioned. I've transferred both VHS tapes and laserdiscs using this method. I do set my own video input picture adjustments (I don't use the factory presets). I don't use any luma (Y) video noise reduction, which definitely does soften the picture. Chroma (C) noise reduction only. Also, the Y/C separation filter adjustment has an effect on the picture sharpness. It softens slightly as you adjust it towards Motion.

I have not had a chance to do an in-depth, more objective comparison yet, however. Busy with work...

[strongbad]

aren't the picture adjustments default the same as the 220's default? I just leave it alone. I have tried playing with the adjustments and it didn't really have much of an effect, or it made it worse.

i wish more owners of the new pioneers would chime in on their experiences

[ann coates]

but i have been comparing all my recordings from 531 with my 220 and my 220 recordings all look better. CLeaner images, less shadowing haze effects. The 531 looks fuzzy, soft, and not crisp.

When you say "all your recordings from the 531" are you speaking of recordings you made using the 2 pass method or are you talking about your regular recordings using XP or SP and high speed dubbing to DVDr? Personally, I find the picture on the 531 to be better/sharper than the older Pioneer models, the 520 for instance. I can't speak of recordings using the 2 pass method, though. I haven't tried it yet.

[ann coates]

Also, the Y/C separation filter adjustment has an effect on the picture sharpness. It softens slightly as you adjust it towards Motion.

gshelley, when recording off TV do you keep your Y/C seperation filter setting all the way towards still or in the middle (the default) between still and motion? I've played with these settings a lot, but I keep returning to the defaults. Any tips for the settings you can offer?

[strongbad]

but i have been comparing all my recordings from 531 with my 220 and my 220 recordings all look better. CLeaner images, less shadowing haze effects. The 531 looks fuzzy, soft, and not crisp.

When you say "all your recordings from the 531" are you speaking of recordings you made using the 2 pass method or are you talking about your regular recordings using XP or SP and high speed dubbing to DVDr? Personally, I find the picture on the 531 to be better/sharper than the older Pioneer models, the 520 for instance. I can't speak of recordings using the 2 pass method, though. I haven't tried it yet.

Yes everything I've done on the 531 is XP+ then optimum disc. The new models do have better encoding system than the older models in regards to longer record modes. I have found the older models to produce macroblocks even at SP mode, and very noticeable beyond that. With the 531, I don't see any macroblocks even at 2.5 hours.

I don't have a problem with that. I don't record anything over 2 hours anyway. I"m just trying to determine if the 2 pass system I'm using is causing the inferior picture, or if the older models just truely do produce a cleaner, sharper image, and true colors. I am recording all the same things. Satellite with S-Video, video adjustment settings set to default. I record HBO, Showtime sporting events. I compared the new models with 2 pass encoding and the old model using direct to disc(220)s. Both are all done under 2 hour modes. I play them back in PowerDVD and see a clear difference. So, I'm trying to figure out if XP+ to optimum disc is really worse or if the new encoding chip, although eliminates macroblocks at extended hours, just produces an inferior picture.

I think I want a Sony but they don't offer MN adjustments

[ann coates]

It might be the 2 pass encode. Recording on my Pioneer in XP or SP mode and then high speed dubbing to DVDr produces an excellent picture for me. Better than last years Pioneer 520. Why don't you try XP or SP instead of the 2 pass system and high speed dub to DVDr and see how the picture is. I can't see it being worse than your 420. It really should be equal or better, at least that is what my experience has been.

As far as Sony goes, I'm not too fond of them myself. My friend has one of the new Sonys. They're way overpriced and it lacks even the most common of features. I think the Pioneers are much better, personally. You get more for less.

[gshelley61]

It is entirely possible that the video input default filter settings were changed somewhat for the newer machines... in fact, the circuits themselves may have been changed a little, because their are new additions (like gamma) and wider adjustment ranges. Throw in a new encoding chip to the mix, and yes there could easily be some difference in image between last years model and these new units. Again, I suggest you do not use the default settings and tweak the images prior to encoding. In the Manual Recording mode, there is a MPEG2 preview function that allow you to see the actual MPEG2 video stream prior to recording to the hard drive or to disc.

[gshelley61]

Also, the Y/C separation filter adjustment has an effect on the picture sharpness. It softens slightly as you adjust it towards Motion.

gshelley, when recording off TV do you keep your Y/C seperation filter setting all the way towards still or in the middle (the default) between still and motion? I've played with these settings a lot, but I keep returning to the defaults. Any tips for the settings you can offer?

I've been using one notch towards Motion for most of my recordings so far. Moving towrds Still, the image sharpens a little bit, but there is a bit more noise (depending on the source quality). The Chroma noise reduction can be maxed if necessary without any real detriment to sharpness, and is a pretty effective filter. I also use the black level and gamma adjustments sometimes.

[ann coates]

Thanks for your reply, appreciate it.

[strongbad]

What exactly does the AGC filter do? I was reading a review on the 633 at Epinions, and the reviewer said the 633 recordings didnt look good at default. He said he looked at the filters and noticed ACG was off by default. He turned it on and said his recordings look great now.

I just tried putting AGC on a football game and noticed no difference at all. I kept switching on and off, and between switching, I possibly saw a flicker going brightt or a little darker. No real enhancement.

[gshelley61]

Automatic Gain Control. It keeps white levels (luma) from exceeding limits. Helpful for recording off of TV or from home made tapes, which frequently vary in luma intensity.

The factory presets (defaults) for Tuner, VCR and LDP definitely have some levels of Detail, Y and C Noise reduction, and other filters applied. That's why I don't use them. Depending on the quality of your source, you may not want any noise reduction applied. Or, maybe you want to apply some detail yourself. Don't use the presets, unless it is for "quickie" time-shift recording that doesn't matter that much.

[strongbad]

I use the default presets of Memory1. I just turned on AGC even though I noticed no difference in the football game.

[gshelley61]

The three user adjustable Memory settings are set with everything neutral (no noise reduction, no detail, no AGC)

7.5 IRE is the black level source setting by default. All the other stuff (gamma, black level, white level, chroma, etc. ) is in the middle.

You will find that every TV channel and every video source can use a bit of tweaking. Especially black levels. They are almost always off a bit. Gamma is another very useful adjustment, which alters the relative intensity of the black and white levels to each other (the video response curve, so to speak).

[strongbad]

Wow! I just tried my first direct to disc recording on the 531. I used 2:10 mode of HBO's replay boxing telecast right now and it looks pretty bad! I see all the same macroblocks like from the 220 at this mode. Pretty interesting since I have an HBO boxing telecast that is 2:23 long, that I did at XP+ to optimize disc and noticed no macroblocks and pixelation, which is why I mentioned the new models having a better encoding chip. So I guess the 2 pass step does produce a better final result. Still don't understand why my 220 recordings under SP would look better than the 531 2 pass encode though. Maybe dishnetwork just compressed HBO and Showtime even more

[Savant]

Speaking strictly from a user manual perspective, there are two comments that would support the opinion that video recorded to the hard drive will be of a greater quality when recorded to DVD later. Page 8 (in my manual) mentioned the following:

You can also choose to copy material at a different recording quality from the original. For example, you might want to copy an XP mode (highest quality) recording on the HDD to SP (standard play) quality on a DVD so that you can fit other recordings on the same disc.

They go on to say:

When recording to the HDD, picture quality data is also stored so that picture quality can be optimized when making real-time copies to DVD later. (This is applicable only to MN16-32 HDD recordings {Video Mode Off}, or MN12-32/XP recordings {Video Mode On})

So there does seem to be something to this, albeit the end result may be impacted by many factors...

Regards,

Savant

[sapulidi]

i think this is like my canopus advc-300. i'm using this device to back-up laserdisc, when using composite-cable have good picture than s-cable (setting: factory default).