Capturing VHS to PC with a high definition resolution...?

[dark_myuutwo]

OK, I have a question, and forgive me if it's been asked in one way or another before.

What I want to do around spring 2006 is capture some VHS tapes that I hope to be receiving from parts around the world for a project, and what I would like to know is: Is it possible to capture video from VHS at a high definition resolution of 1280x720, using a standard PCI capture card (if there are any for this kind of capture), so that it looks almost exactly as the tape itself looks?

The reason I want to do this is so that I can make Blu-Ray discs (using the actual capture) and DVD's (converted from the capture to standard MPEG-2 quality), the Blu-Ray discs obviously being of the highest quality.

If anyone can help me on this, that would be excellent! Thanks in advance!

[lordsmurf]

I'm afraid you're confused. VHS has a maximum resolution (in digital equivalents) of about 250-300x480. Anything beyond that, even Full D1 720x480, does nothing to help it.

VHS is a mediocre resolution source. Period.

If you're unable to get a high quality VHS transfer at available DVD resolutions, you're either doing something wrong or have defective hardware/software.

Nothing about HD or Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will make any difference on the VHS source.

Read some more here about various analog sources:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/understandsource.htm

Plus if you use tapes from "parts around the world", you have NTSC and PAL to worry about, and converting those to a single format will also lead to artifacts unless you own equipment that costs more than a small house.

[SHS]

Yup what lordsmurf is saying would be rigth the money you asking to much out of VHS resolution in fact if I'm rigth I think you just end with less PQ at that high of resolution and I think it best just stick with MAX of 720x480 DVD resolution or HalfD1 352x480.

[dark_myuutwo]

I'm very aware that VHS is a crappy source to begin with.

But the thing is I don't want to capture it at DVD quality, cos I have too many problems with DVD's lossy compression method associated with MPEG-2.

I want to transfer it to a Blu-Ray resolution so that there's technically no loss of quality, and no blockiness in the picture that way.

[DVWannaB]

I'm very aware that VHS is a crappy source to begin with.

But the thing is I don't want to capture it at DVD quality, cos I have too many problems with DVD's lossy compression method associated with MPEG-2.

I want to transfer it to a Blu-Ray resolution so that there's technically no loss of quality, and no blockiness in the picture that way.

I still think you are confused. You cannot put a carrot in a barrel, close it and roll it down hill, open it up and get an apple.

Same with video. You cant put a VHS tape on 1280x720 digital video and have it drastically different from your source VHS video. There are ways to do some picture enhancements with hardware and software but it is not going to be magically High definition just because its Blu-Ray. As the poster above said, putting a 300x450 resolution VHS into a 1280x720 may in fact make it look worse, because of the stretching involved. I can see blurred picture and washed out colors.

I think this project nets you very little and a lot of wasted time. Just do a 720x480 at the highest resolution and call it a day.

[SHS]

Artifacts are sometimes caused by poor MPEG encoding, Low Bitrate, but artifacts are more often caused by a poorly adjusted capture, bad cables, electrical interference, sloppy digital noise reduction, improper picture enhancement, poor film-to-video transfer, film grain, stretching, video source tape and so on.
By the way Blu-ray has all ready done made it clear that they are only supporting MPEG-2 as the video codec but at much higher data rate of 24Mbps.
By the way you are wasting your time with Blu-Ray any way becuases smart consumer will touch the carp any way becuase it all sound a lot like the old carp Home DivX Player.

[dark_myuutwo]

Just answer my question: Is it or is it not possible to capture analog signals at that resolution or what? Or can I capture it at 720x480 at a bitrate higher than 9.8Mbps?

I don't care for what you guys say about the VHS resolutions. I don't care if it's not high definition; I already acknowledged that VHS isn't high definition to begin with.
I did not post to be lectured about that. I've been working on my own DVD projects for the past year, and I know about *that* stuff, but I want to know if it's possible to capture analog video signals at a higher resolution or bitrate, so that I can use it on BOTH DVD and Blu-Ray?!

And btw. MPEG-2 is *NOT* the only video codec Blu-Ray is supporting. There are 2 others as well.

[edDV]

Just about any capture program (e.g. Virtualdub, ATI MMC, ULead Video Studio, etc.) will allow you uncompressed (or light compression, lossless huffyuv)

Just set to 720x480, AVI YUY2 or YUYV and cap away.

Vegas will do it at 1280x720 no problem so long as you have a HD capture card (see Blackmagic).

You need lots and lots of disk space 73GB/hr for YUY2, huffyuv ~30GB/hr.

1280x720 YUY2 30 frames/sec = ~290 GB/hr

Blu-Ray alternative codecs (VC1 and H.264) are not yet mature. Best to wait until closer to Blu-Ray release to encode.

[lordsmurf]

People are not answering your question because most of us see it as a stupid question. Sort of like asking "can I drop a V10 Viper engine into a Dodge Neon"? Rather than give the stupid answer, we're giving more information on more appropriate means to carry out VHS to digital conversions.

A few facts:

- If you see flaws in MPEG-2, you're either doing something wrong, or so overly anal that no compression codec will ever be to your liking.
- Blu-Ray, FYI, is probably not going to catch on either. You're jumping the gun by at least 3-5 years.
- With VHS, garbage in = garbage out. There is nothing magic that will make your VHS tapes look "DVD quality" or even "BluRay quality".

If you've only been doing this for a year, you're still a newbie, and the lecture was the correct course of action.

If you want to totally ignore what anybody says here, then sure, knock yourself out, go buy a HD card and HD software and capture away. I really don't care. But you're turning down good advice. There's some great stuff on Mac these days, Apple sent me some brochures and demos just last month. Go for it.

[davideck]

People are not answering your question because most of us see it as a stupid question.

I think dark_myuutwo is asking a very valid question.
Is it possible to convert VHS tapes (or any source) to a DVD format without introducing additional noticeable artifacts?
We are all attempting to do that, aren't we?
That's what this forum is all about.

A few facts:

- If you see flaws in MPEG-2, you're either doing something wrong, or so overly anal that no compression codec will ever be to your liking.

Are you the only one on this forum that doesn't see any MPEG2 artifacts???

- With VHS, garbage in = garbage out. There is nothing magic that will make your VHS tapes look "DVD quality" or even "BluRay quality".

My VHS conversions look excellent. Better than the original tape.
What do yours look like?

If you've only been doing this for a year, you're still a newbie, and the lecture was the correct course of action.

Some people learn faster than others...

[junkmalle]

NTSC video has 480 discreet scanlines (well actually a few more but you don't see them) and PAL video has 576 discreet scanlines. That's what is there to capture. Certainly you could capture that many and then scale afterwards. But if your video is interlaced it won't scale very well.

[Jester700]

I think dark_myuutwo is asking a very valid question.
Is it possible to convert VHS tapes (or any source) to a DVD format without introducing additional noticeable artifacts?
We are all attempting to do that, aren't we?
That's what this forum is all about.

He WAS answered. Not only is it possible, Blu-ray offers no additional benefit (other than maybe several hours of VHS quality instead of a couple).

Are you the only one on this forum that doesn't see any MPEG2 artifacts???

- With VHS, garbage in = garbage out. There is nothing magic that will make your VHS tapes look "DVD quality" or even "BluRay quality".

My VHS conversions look excellent. Better than the original tape.
What do yours look like?

Your encodes are better than the tapes, but show additional artifacts? Could you clarify?

My take was that he'll eventually want to put these on Blu-ray (or whatever the next format is). But I'd bet MPEG2 will be included in that spec, so any DVD encodes made today can just be transferred over & reauthored with no further conversion loss. I don't see the problem.

[davideck]

He WAS answered. Not only is it possible, Blu-ray offers no additional benefit (other than maybe several hours of VHS quality instead of a couple).

Even at 8 MBits/s, transferring to DVD creates noticeable artifacts.
Transferring to Mini-DV at 25 Mbits/s is essentially artifact free. If Blu-Ray offered this same level of encoding quality, then it would be providing a significant benefit.

Your encodes are better than the tapes, but show additional artifacts? Could you clarify?

My TBC-3000 and Hauppauge PVR-250 both tend to reduce Chroma phase (hue) noise.
The TBC-3000 also improves horizontal stability.
For some tapes, I also use my JVC 7600, which provides excellent horizontal and chroma timebase correction at the expense of some DNR artifacts. These improvements show up on the DVD. Unfortunately, so do the typical MPEG2 motion artifacts.

My take was that he'll eventually want to put these on Blu-ray (or whatever the next format is). But I'd bet MPEG2 will be included in that spec, so any DVD encodes made today can just be transferred over & reauthored with no further conversion loss. I don't see the problem.

The problem is that the MPEG2 artifacts introduced today in the encoding process will forever be part of the picture and can never be removed. My take is that he wants to avoid this.

[FulciLives]

My take on it ... if you want to be REALLY anal ...

Capture at Full D1 resolution (720x480 for NTSC or 720x576 for PAL) and use a hardware MPEG encoder than can do 15,000kbps MPEG-2 and do CBR and if possible do "I" frame only encoding.

Then use something like winRAR to back it up over several DVD-R discs and keep it that way until HD DVD or BLUE RAY becomes usable.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[dark_myuutwo]

I think dark_myuutwo is asking a very valid question.
Is it possible to convert VHS tapes (or any source) to a DVD format without introducing additional noticeable artifacts?
We are all attempting to do that, aren't we?
That's what this forum is all about.

Now THAT's someone who understands what I'm getting at! Thank you!!!

Just about any capture program (e.g. Virtualdub, ATI MMC, ULead Video Studio, etc.) will allow you uncompressed (or light compression, lossless huffyuv)

Just set to 720x480, AVI YUY2 or YUYV and cap away.

Vegas will do it at 1280x720 no problem so long as you have a HD capture card (see Blackmagic).

You need lots and lots of disk space 73GB/hr for YUY2, huffyuv ~30GB/hr.

1280x720 YUY2 30 frames/sec = ~290 GB/hr

Blu-Ray alternative codecs (RC1 and H.264) are not yet mature. Best to wait until closer to Blu-Ray release to encode.

Hard Disk space is virtually no problem, as I do have a 300GB hard drive, which I have most of the files backed up anyways. If I need to delete them, then that's no problem.

How good is huffyuv when it comes to captures?

Also, I decided to look at some specs. It seems that at "SD" quality, at 720x480 / 720x576, Blu-Ray can capture and play these at a max. bitrate of 15Mbps. See, THAT's more like the bitrate I'm looking for now, as I've sort of changed my mind now on what the resolution I want.

(And I guess you guys were right about the resolution changing the display somewhat, but I still stand in wanting to capture VHS tapes at a high bitrate, so I think the DVD dimension resolutions will do fine but with the high bitrate of about 15Mbps on the final product)

The problem is that the MPEG2 artifacts introduced today in the encoding process will forever be part of the picture and can never be removed. My take is that he wants to avoid this.

That's exactly it.

My take on it ... if you want to be REALLY anal ...

Capture at Full D1 resolution (720x480 for NTSC or 720x576 for PAL) and use a hardware MPEG encoder than can do 15,000kbps MPEG-2 and do CBR and if possible do "I" frame only encoding.

Then use something like winRAR to back it up over several DVD-R discs and keep it that way until HD DVD or BLUE RAY becomes usable.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

That would work. What cards may I ask can do this capture, and which are the best suited for that?

[raffie]

A few facts:

- Blu-Ray, FYI, is probably not going to catch on either.

I am going to love seeing you eat your own words .

[lordsmurf]

A few facts:

- Blu-Ray, FYI, is probably not going to catch on either.

I am going to love seeing you eat your own words .

It will probably end up a niche like laserdisc or S-VHS was unless they can get their shit together. Same for HD-DVD. Not to mention that a format change is not really in high demand. It's too early.

Whatever is "next" (on par with VHS and DVD) will exist after 2010. That pretty much excludes BluRay and HD-DVD for a long while, maybe forever. Best to leave the future to the future, not mes around with captuting to a format that may be dead before it starts.

[dark_myuutwo]

You're quite the pessimist.

I personally think it will take off in one way or another, just not the way I would hope so, because of the upcoming format war between the DVD Forum (which back HD-DVD), and the Blu-Ray Alliance (correct name?), who obviously came up with the Blu-Ray disc format.

If anything, Blu-Ray has LOTS of support from over 50-100 companies (I don't know exactly how much, cos they seem to be getting new members every day as it seems), and HD-DVD doesn't even as many backers; if anything, it's likely going to be in trouble.

That, and a recent consumer survey found more than 50% of people would support Blu-Ray over HD-DVD.

If you want more info on who supports it (assuming you haven't checked so), go to http://www.blu-ray.com

[raffie]

A few facts:

- Blu-Ray, FYI, is probably not going to catch on either.

I am going to love seeing you eat your own words .

It will probably end up a niche like laserdisc or S-VHS was unless they can get their shit together. Same for HD-DVD. Not to mention that a format change is not really in high demand. It's too early.

Whatever is "next" (on par with VHS and DVD) will exist after 2010. That pretty much excludes BluRay and HD-DVD for a long while, maybe forever. Best to leave the future to the future, not mes around with captuting to a format that may be dead before it starts.

With HiDef plasma screens rapidly dropping in price, it's safe to say HD is here to stay. So there will be demand for a HD storage medium.
It's pretty safe to say that blu-ray will NOT be a niche market, since that would mean that only hard-core video enthousiasts would have blu-ray machines. Within a year a shitload of ppl are going to be having a blu-ray player (aka ps3), so all they would have to do is choose between a DVD version of a movie or a blu-ray version.

Since you're giving us your estimate of the next format i'll give you mine. Within 2 years of when blu-ray players & movies have come out (in europe & america) it will have pretty much taken over DVD, im going to say by 2008. You have to take into account DVD players are dirtcheap and ppl have no reason to hang on to them when the format becomes obsolete.

[dark_myuutwo]

You have to take into account DVD players are dirtcheap and ppl have no reason to hang on to them when the format becomes obsolete.

Add that to the fact that Blu-Ray players will be backwards-compatible with DVD.

[SHS]

Fact that Blu-Ray players will be backwards-compatible with DVD maybe ture but the part your not seeing about Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has adopted the most comprehensive content management system ever employed on an all new optical disc format. Rumor Mill has it that you will not beable master you own Blu-Ray video disc and have it playback on Blu-Ray players or PC Blu-Ray Drive with Softplayer so there for a specialty houses has to do for you.

That, and a recent consumer survey found more than 50% of people would support Blu-Ray over HD-DVD

That was before people found out about new 3 layer copy protect.

[rkgibbons]

First off, what the hell kind of conclusions can you draw from a survey that states "50% of people would support Blu-Ray over HD-DVD?"

So, you could also say "50% of people would support HD-DVD over Blu-Ray".

It's a meaningless toss-up.

As well, you've failed to mention the percent of respondents who had absolutely no idea what Blu-Ray or HD-DVD even are.

Awareness of these two technologies hovers at around 2% in the general population. So, half of those 2% support Blu-Ray, and half support HD-DVD. The other 98% likely responded "Blue what?"

Not exactly an over-powering consumer priority at the moment...

You have to remember that most people on this site are relatively "in-the-know" on these subject matters, but the general population is the only force that will eventually decide if these technologies see the light of day.

Personally, I have no idea what the future holds.

[FulciLives]

Probably the most popular capture card that does hardware MPEG-2 at 15,000kbps is the Hauppauge WinTV PVR-250 ... they also make the PVR-350 which includes outputs as well as inputs (the 250 only has inputs). There is also a newer but cheaper 150 model but it has audio problems ... supposedly fixed now ... but some still complain. The popular choice is the 250 model.

Another option that you don't hear too much about is the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 which is a USB 2 device (the Hauppauge models above are PCI altough they also make a WinTV PVR USB 2.0 device). I've heard really good things about the Instant DVD 2.0 from some people I trust.

I would also consider getting a stand alone TBC device. There you have a choice (on the "cheap end") of the AVT-8710 or the DataVideo TBC-1000

Last but not least you will want a quality JVC S-VHS VCR (the 9000 series).

Another option that comes to mind ... if I recall reading the thread correctly you did say that DV was a format you are happy with quality wise so ... you might consider a DV capture device such as the Canopus ADVC-100/110 or the DataVideo DAC-100. You can then archive the DV capture as DV and split it across several DVD-R discs (using winRAR for example) or convert the DV capture to MPEG-2 using a software MPEG-2 encoder although at a CBR of 15,000kbps that would probably take a LONG time (with a software MPEG encoder).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DRfrankenpimp]

i did not catch the whole story this morning on bloomberg tv but they have rejected the new dvd format i guess thats blu ray.

[sapulidi]

1280x720 YUY2 30 frames/sec = ~290 GB/hr

i think take more 1-month to encode, or you must be waiting blue-ray recorder from jvc, pioneer or sony with 1-TB hard drive. today dvd recorder only support max 160-GB

[sapulidi]

sony has release;
High-Definition Digital Video RecorderDHG-HDD500

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProduc...e=tvhav_HDDVRs

[raffie]

1280x720 YUY2 30 frames/sec = ~290 GB/hr

i think take more 1-month to encode

good point, anyone has any idea what the encoding frame rate is for HD (on 1700 mhz)

[edDV]

1280x720 YUY2 30 frames/sec = ~290 GB/hr

i think take more 1-month to encode

good point, anyone has any idea what the encoding frame rate is for HD (on 1700 mhz)

12-24 hrs per hour estimate.

Get rid of that old 1700 MHz. Get on the stick and buy one of those 30GHZ 2008 models while they are on closeout sale.

[vhelp]

I'm confused here with the numbers posted.

But, reading below, is my understanding of size requirements based on
pixel coverage, but does not account for capturing to a codec using
YUV and Sampling, which should bring down the numbers (below) even
lower 'wise:

(to align the numbers below, just copy to clipboard and paste inside
notepad - sorry)

   W      H    pix/fram  fps   fps/mb      60 seconds    1 hour 
*-----*------*----------*---*----------*---------------*--------------- 
  352 x  480    168,960  30   5,068,800    304,128,000   18,247,680,000 
  720 x  480    345,600  30  10,368,000    622,080,000   37,324,800,000 
 1280 x  480    614,400  30  18,432,000  1,105,920,000   66,355,200,000 
 1280 x  720    921,600  30  22,118,400  1,327,104,000   79,626,240,000 
 1920 x 1280  2,457,600  30  58,982,400  3,538,944,000  212,336,640,000 
*-----*------*----------*---*----------*---------------*---------------

From the UYVY test clip I captured a few days ago or so (for another
thread) for a 720 x 480 pixel, 60 second capture, it was aprox 1.25gig

-vhelp 3533

[vhelp]

I agree with your latest decision. To capture at 720 x 480 and then
encode it with a high bitrate. This is the best way to go because
quality will show. And, the higher the bitrate your given device
will allow, the better. If 15mb is your max, then definately use it
and make sure it is CBR so that you have what is close to I-Frame
only detail. You are obviously looking for producing quality. And
staying away from VBR (for this purpose) is my suggestion. In my
book, there is no such thing as "too much". Then, later on, when
you feel that you have what it takes to process this archive, you
can do so with the comfort of knowing you have I-Frame 'like quality
to work with. Anyways.

I've been testing VHS transfers with my ADS Xpress (an hardware mpeg
capture box) and using high bitrate (it goes to 15mb) I have been
producing very good results w/ a re-encode from this. You can see
a VHS sample clip of this (see my signature's link) process.

(fwiw: and now, I can capture at 20mb w/ this box, through a .reg
tweaking I've been working on)

As long as you continue to stay away from the old way of thinking
or looking at VHS and lower resolutions [ie, 352 x 480 pixels] you'll
be fine.

There are many who feel that the lower resolution is fine. But I
always disagree with this because you never know when you may make
the move to a larger screen tv, and sooner or later, you'll regret
the prev decision to use lower resolution captures.

I look at VHS like I look at a flat bed scanner. Same principle
in reproducing good results from what seems to be a low resolution.

And, the next generation of capture cards that go beyond 720 x 480
resolutions, will produce even better VHS reproduction because
more detail is reproduced in a larger area.. or more pixel info
is sampled into the container.

But, you also have to look out for macrovision from these sources
too. This can hinder your whole project. So, take care in that
respect.

-vhelp 3534