Computer hardware capture Vs DVD recorder capture

[didikai]

I have seen some references to transferring video tape to DVD by using a stand alone DVD recorder.
I have many VCR and analogue camcorder tapes to transfer to DVD.
At present I have an ample computer system with 2x200 gig HDs, and ATI Theatre Pro 550 which captures fine with Pinnacle Studio 9.

I'd like to hear some pros and cons as to which would be better / easier. Tape to computer, or tape to DVD recorder and then to computer.

I would need to do some basic editting like removing unwanted video footage etc.

[gshelley61]

The newer DVD recorders with built-in hard drives can do everything you want, at very high quality, very quickly. Have a look at the new Pioneer DVR-531H (at Wal Mart), or if you would like a firewire DV input look at the DVR-533H or 633H. They all have a very well designed input video processor with adjustments for black level, white level, gamma, chroma, hue, detail, Y/C separation, etc. This allows you to tweak the source image to your liking prior to recording. With these units, you can do your first MPEG2 encoding pass to the hard drive at a very high quality 15Mbps, do your trimming, then do a second pass re-encode to DVD at a lower compliant bitrate. Very nice feature that assures a top-quality two-pass VBR encode, but in real time - not overnight or in 24 hours like with computer software encoding. There really isn't a faster or better way to transfer lots of tapes to DVD, IMHO.

Computer video capture and encoding methods require much more effort and time (and probably more money), and have a pretty steep learning curve in order to get great results. However, if you intend to do more involved Hollywood style editing, adding music, narration, graphics, fancy scene transitions... that should be done on the computer in the AVI file format, then converted to DVD.

FWIW, YMMV

[edDV]

I would agree with gshelley61 for VHS transfers but caution for camcorder original material (e.g. family legacy tapes and other important stuff).

First rule: don't toss or record over the masters. Better transfers will be possible in the future. Store the tapes in a cool dry space.

Family legacy material should be transferred with greatest care. Consider this first pass as a backup. Future techniques will be best for restoration especially for HDTV delivery.

[trhouse]

Could you do a VirtualdubMOD still capture of an action scene like from "Cool Hand Luke" and compare the image from one pass VBR for the 531 vs its two pass VBR performance?

[edDV]

Could you do a virtualmod still capture of an action scene like from "Cool Hand Luke" and compare the image from one pass VBR for the 531 vs its two pass VBR performance?

Two pass VBR is only for space consumption prediction. not quality.

[trhouse]

I meant capture first as if there were no hdd to dvd in SP mode, then capture to the hdd at 15 MBs and then do two pass VBR and burn at SP mode rates and compare the quality.

[edit] I thought the purpose of the second pass is to increase bitrate for fast action sequences at places determined by the first pass. I would think there would be improvement in quality.

[gshelley61]

I would agree with gshelley61 for VHS transfers but caution for camcorder original material (e.g. family legacy tapes and other important stuff).

First rule: don't toss or record over the masters. Better transfers will be possible in the future. Store the tapes in a cool dry space.

Family legacy material should be transferred with greatest care. Consider this first pass as a backup. Future techniques will be best for restoration especially for HDTV delivery.

Yes, definitely do not get rid of or record over your family videotape masters. MPEG2 (DVD) is not an archive quality format. A good transfer to DVD gives you the ability to view your videos in a pretty high quality format as much as you like, and your tapes will be safe from over-use, carefully stored. There are much higher quality digital video storage formats on the horizon, but for now DVD is inexpensive, convenient and easy to share.

[edDV]

I meant capture first as if there were no hdd to dvd in SP mode, then capture to the hdd at 15 MBs and then do two pass VBR and burn at SP mode rates and compare the quality.

[edit] I thought the purpose of the second pass is to increase bitrate for fast action sequences at places determined by the first pass. I would think there would be improvement in quality.

While it does distribute bitrate, the primary goal is to fit the specified disc capacity.

I doubt there is much difference 2 pass on action scenes for VHS to DVD. If you are concerned just go for higher average bitrate.

[gshelley61]

I meant capture first as if there were no hdd to dvd in SP mode, then capture to the hdd at 15 MBs and then do two pass VBR and burn at SP mode rates and compare the quality.

[edit] I thought the purpose of the second pass is to increase bitrate for fast action sequences at places determined by the first pass. I would think there would be improvement in quality.

I can tell there is a difference between a single pass SP recording and a two-pass XP+ to SP recording, just from casual observation. But, yes... when I get the chance I will do some comparisons like you suggest and share them.

[DereX888]

You can do absolutely the best quality on your computer if capturing to AVI and encoding to DVD. Speed depends on your CPU/RAM ofcourse.

You can do captures directly to DVD-R on your computer, with exactly the same quality and in a real-time same as on standalone recorder too - but if you have really good and fast machine.

If your computer is not top-notch, or if you don't have much knowledge (which I suspect you don't since you ask here) then standalone recorder is probably better option for you. Some recorders are able to capture at maximum bitrate (~10Mbps) at constant bitrate as well. You can't have better quality than that, and picture quality in such case will greatly depend on built-in features of the recorder. Remember, you won't have any option to apply filters or enhance it after its done (as you would on a computer), so the 'extra features' (like at least built-in TBC is a must) are actually the most important features you should consider before you decide which recorder you wanna buy.

One more tip: don't go by "XP", "SP" etc "modes" of standalones. Some of standalones allow you to capture to their built-in hard drive and afterward they will reencode (sort-of 2 pass) it to fit it exactly on the disc; you may select "SP" mode, but it won't be the same "SP" mode as done by different standalone model with different encoding algorithms and features; in other words - "SP" of one recorder does not equal to "SP" of another model. Its just marketing gimmick, more like to tell you that in "SP" mode you can fit about 2hrs, at "LP" you can fit 4hrs and so on - but the picture/encoding quality of same mode IS different on various models even within same brand. One standalone's SP mode may look like XP mode of other model, or LP mode of yet another one.
Its just a marketing BS


BTW:
VHS is lower resolution than standard DVD-Video. If it is done right (the best way on a computer, not on a standalone rec) then IT IS archival material. You think capturing in HDTV format will make it look better? Obviously all you can do with VHS source is - at best - to preserve its quality, whivh I remind again which is lower than standard DVD; using i.e. DV camera to capture in higher than DVD resolution won't give you any better picture than it is originally on the source VHS All you'll get will be inflated in size (and in resolution) multigigabyte DV/AVI file that will have any better quality than standard DVD-Video's MPEG file (again - if done right).
IMO it is stupid to wait for affordable home HDTV recording equipment, because you can't 'squeeze out' better quality out of VHS than the VHS's quality is obviously, no matter to how higher resolution you try transferring it to; it will always be a VHS quality.
Nowaday's DVD format is already of higher resolution than VHS was, thus it is already more than enough. And I wouldn't wait any longer with transferring those old VHS to DVD, oxygen is constantly damaging magnetised metal particles on tape even when youre not using them...

[Nelson37]

Well now wait just one minute.

What is being referred to as "2-pass" encoding is no such thing. The second pass is making no reference to bitrate allocation and Quantization levels from the first pass, it is simply re-encoding an already encoded image. If allowances are made for the edited commercials, exactly equal bitrate given to each file, the video encoded just once in SP mode should be of higher quality than one encoded once in XP+ or whatever and encoded a second time to the SP filesize. There will be additional smoothing effects, but loss of detail.

The exception would be if the encoder somehow functions less efficiently at the lower bitrates, the additional smoothing of the first "pass" would make for a simpler encode on the second "pass" and possibly fewer gross errors. Otherwise one encode to a given bitrate should be better than two, no matter how good the first encoded source is, it is degraded from the original.

The true "2-pass" encode done on a PC does in fact reference the bitrate allocation and Quantization levels from the first pass and changes the bitrate for individual sections on the second pass, making for higher quality. An avi capture is also better than an MPG capture, although a 15Mbs I-frame only MPG is very close to AVI, using Huffy or similar.

The standalone units are improving, but their primary advantage is simplicity.

[vhelp]

Its been my experience (from a re-encode algorithem) that your bitrate
mode should be one of CBR, not vbr. But, I am going to guess that with
dvd recorders, you do not have that option (gshelley69, please correct
me if i'm wrong) But, even if your only option at 15mb is VBR, then at
least its higher bitrate than a 9mb w/ vbr. But you still want to go
with a unit (or device) that does 15mb in CBR mode for maximum reproduce
quality in every frame.. weather they need 'em or not.

For preservation purposes ...

When you capture (using any device as the tool) you want to the
convenience of highest bitrate (ie, 15mb+ )and includes CBR, but also
does not P/B frames.. only I frames. Some devices may suck at this
while other many not and do better. It's a trial 'n error scenario at
best. But, this would be the best method for preservation purposes,
such as *assumed* backup (be it MPEG-2 or other format, though I would
suggest it be in MPEG-2 format if I-Frame can be achieved w/ max bitrate
such as 15mb+ greater)

Also, if you are doing re-encodes with preservation purposes in
mind, I would suggest that (give the above) you use the max bitrate
you can in your MPEG-2 backup of I-Frames re-encode. This is the best
*assumed* backup method, IMO. Anyways..

So far, I have seen only TMPGenc do the best I-Frame re-encode to MPEG.
I'm currently testing other methods/processes. So, until then..

Regarding HDTV ...

If you (or anyone else) are planning for HDTV output as well, then I
would definately suggest that you plan for a 720 x 480 final resolution.
352 x 480 is not the best finalized method if you have HDTC (as an
output option) in mind, some time later on.

Again, this is why I suggested the attributes of:

I-Frame only; MPEG-2; CBR; highest bitrate ie, 15mb+ etc;

..because, you have a better chance at applying a future (better)
method/process of re-encoding from the *assumed* backup, should that
ever become an occurance in your video archival endeavor

I would also consider researching other hardware capture methods
in your endeaver. Such as Analog AVI capture cards and/or hardware
MPEG-2 cards or boxes or whatever.

Last minute words ...

I would suggest a dvd recorder if you are not up to the challenge
of becoming an encoder master.

But if you planning such, then consider the rest of the above that
I mentioned.

@ gshelley69

Yes. more Cool Hand Luke demo pics (try and squeeze in an MPG clip)
If you have any VHS one's, (in addition to your laserdisc versions) do
those two. don't forget, this user (the poster above) is doing VHS
archivals (and me too)

-vhelp 3513

[trhouse]

Nelson37,

You may have a point. I just browsed the 533 owners manual. It says the following,



but I found no references to any description of a process like the 2 pass VBR we normally think of with regard to encoders.

It would still be interesting to see the images. There is always the possibility that more is going on than described in the manual.

[gshelley61]

In reference to the the second encoding pass to DVD that can be done after recording MPEG2 at 15Mbps on the hard drive (both the new Pioneer and Sony DVD recorders can do this), here's a blurb about the feature from Sony:

"The Sony RDR-HX1000 and Sony RDR-HX900 DVD recorders feature recording in HQ+ mode. By recording on the hard disk drive at a rate of 15Mbps, you can achieve recordings at a higher quality level (HQ+) than DVD discs.

When you want to dub HQ+ recordings to a DVD disk you can use Dynamic Variable Bit Rate (VBR) dubbing. Dynamic VBR captures quick & complex motion footage more precisely, offering superior quality DVD recordings.

Dynamic VBR Dubbing uses an adaptation of 2-Pass Encoding Technology, which is used by commercial production companies to author pre-recorded DVDs."

Since I didn't engineer the Sony or Pioneer products, I can't say how the adaptation of two-pass encoding technology is exactly implemented. However, from the XP+ to SP "two-pass" test recordings I've done so far, the results are definitely superior to a single pass SP recording... it is easy to see the difference. Based on what they look like (especially during high motion sequences), I suspect that the bitrate allocation and quantization levels from the first pass at 15Mbps are somehow being referenced during the re-encode to SP, making the process a quasi two-pass encode.

I could be wrong, though.

[victoriabears]

For good quality vhs recordings and having spent the last 15 months at this game, my opinion as follows:-

Using a dvd recorder

Best option if you want a straight transfer of the vhs with no/minimal editing, and length of recording is up to three hours, and your dvd recorder has flexible recording mode. FR for panasonic, XT for Toshiba.
You can then take the disc to a PC if you want to edit it further, editing in my book is cimply cutting out commercials. not cutting and pasting, for that you do need to capture to avi then encode.

Using a computer

Best option if like me you have multi tapes of a series and want to record(Capture) more than 2-3 hours, smarten it all up and edit.
Picture quality is not as good as with a dvd recorder unless you capture to avi the as previous posters have said and encode to mpg.

Capturing real time to mpeg can be good, I have used Canopus advc 300/ATI/Canopus MVR1000sx, hauppauge pvr350, my current fav is the 1000sx, haven;t mastered the pvr350 yet, the ati went back and the advc 300 is great but needs care and adjustment.

Be very brutal with yourself about how many times you will watch the stuff and how much time you'll spend doing it, 100% never ever throw away the masters.

[trhouse]

"Since I didn't engineer the Sony or Pioneer products, I can't say how the adaptation of two-pass encoding technology is exactly implemented. However, from the XP+ to SP "two-pass" test recordings I've done so far, the results are definitely superior to a single pass SP recording... it is easy to see the difference. Based on what they look like (especially during high motion sequences), I suspect that the bitrate allocation and quantization levels from the first pass at 15Mbps are somehow being referenced during the re-encode to SP, making the process a quasi two-pass encode."

That is why I would like to see the tests. Manuals are not always written for the advanced user or technically inclined.

[edDV]

"Since I didn't engineer the Sony or Pioneer products, I can't say how the adaptation of two-pass encoding technology is exactly implemented. However, from the XP+ to SP "two-pass" test recordings I've done so far, the results are definitely superior to a single pass SP recording... it is easy to see the difference. Based on what they look like (especially during high motion sequences), I suspect that the bitrate allocation and quantization levels from the first pass at 15Mbps are somehow being referenced during the re-encode to SP, making the process a quasi two-pass encode."

That is why I would like to see the tests. Manuals are not always written for the advanced user or technically inclined.

Good observation. First pass at 15Mb/s with smarts may well improve the lower res seccond pass. If this follows previous 2 pass technique, first pass is analysis. The real encoding happens on the second pass.

[Nelson37]

From the Sony Blurb, it appears to indicate that "Dynamic VBR" is ONLY available when recording from an HQ+ first copy. Is this NOT available on a first-pass, real-time encode? I would think not.

Again from that blurb, I think the HQ+ is NOT the "first-pass", but it serves as the only source upon which the "adaptation of 2-pass technology" can be subsequently performed. This makes sense as it could not be done in real time, without some kind of substantial buffer.

This would still mean it is re-encoding an MPG from an MPG source, using whatever this "Dynamic VBR" encoding is. It may very well give a better final product, compared to a real-time encode. As I stated, an MPG2, 15Mbps, I-frame only capture is very close to an AVI cap, I used to do mine this way as they are about one quarter the size. Slows re-encoding on a PC, a dedicated MPEG decoder chip may eliminate that issue.

[edDV]

I was wondering how much DRAM do these machines have? Then I remembered the HDD. Now I'm thinking, ... how long does this 2 pass take and what CPU is in there?

[sjmaye]

The newer DVD recorders with built-in hard drives can do everything you want, at very high quality, very quickly. Have a look at the new Pioneer DVR-531H (at Wal Mart), or if you would like a firewire DV input look at the DVR-533H or 633H.

I am considering capturing several VHS, VHS-C, and 8mm video tapes. I also was in the market to buy a VHS-DVD combo set top box.

Are any of these units capable of capable of capturing the video into an .avi file that I can transfer to my PC for editing and subsequent encoding to DVD?

[DereX888]

The newer DVD recorders with built-in hard drives can do everything you want, at very high quality, very quickly. Have a look at the new Pioneer DVR-531H (at Wal Mart), or if you would like a firewire DV input look at the DVR-533H or 633H.

I am considering capturing several VHS, VHS-C, and 8mm video tapes. I also was in the market to buy a VHS-DVD combo set top box.

Are any of these units capable of capable of capturing the video into an .avi file that I can transfer to my PC for editing and subsequent encoding to DVD?

lol
ofcoz NOT
basically the whole thread and comparisons of standalone recorders vs computer capture was on mpeg-2 encodes.
If you want to capture video in AVI format (with codec of your choice, or uncompressed) then there is no alternative to computer, ditto.
Thats what I said before: if anyone wants best possible quality or do any real editing (by editing i don't mean just cutting out commercials! lol) then there is no alternative to computer at home. Capture in AVI, edit, encode to DVD-compatible MPEG of your choice, authot & burn. Thats the 'normal' process in my opinion.

[sjmaye]

So, any of the DVD or hard disk recorders will only generate MPEG files. Now the newbie question. VHS quality is pretty crappy to begin with. How much quality will be lost going to an MPEG file? It's a real shame. This would be a real easy way to get my VHS digitized.

If I have to stick with a PC, what type of external capture devices are recommended?

[gshelley61]

VHS captures to MPEG2 using DVD recorders at the higher quality settings come out looking just as good as the original, no problem. There are tons of threads about this subject posted on this forum... do a search and some more reading. If you have lots of VHS tapes to transfer, DVD recorders provide a fast, easy, high quality method of doing it.

[slacker]

gshelley61,

Now for the audio side of the question assuming that one decides to use a dvd recorder to transfer VHS tapes...

My dvd recorder records in both AC3 and LPCM. The dvd space issue notwithstanding, when recording your source VHS video, what would be the most appropriate audio format to use if you wanted to transfer and "gently" edit and/or author your video using software like MPEG Video Wizard, DVD Workshop, TmpGEnc Express / DVD Author. I initially transferred my VHS using AC3, but have had a tough time dealing with issues like normalization and dynamic range compression after the fact. It has been difficult to find a reliable AC3 to AC3 transcoder to use to tweak my audio, and I'm not really even that sure if this should even be done this way.

[lordsmurf]

Extract the audio back to WAV and edit. Recompress to AC3.

The AC3 encoder in the DVD recorder samples far above the VHS anyway, and then the re-compression of WAV to AC3 (or DTS or MP2, etc) is minimal loss if using adequate software and bitrates. In other words, nothing you can hear.

[sjmaye]

VHS captures to MPEG2 using DVD recorders at the higher quality settings come out looking just as good as the original, no problem.

I started working on this project 2 years ago. I have done a lot of editing of the video I do have with Ulead media Studio Pro, but forgot the accepted formats. I know I was working with avi. Can I take these MPEG2 files produced in a set top VHS/DVD recorder and edit them on my PC?

[DereX888]

VHS captures to MPEG2 using DVD recorders at the higher quality settings come out looking just as good as the original, no problem.

I started working on this project 2 years ago. I have done a lot of editing of the video I do have with Ulead media Studio Pro, but forgot the accepted formats. I know I was working with avi. Can I take these MPEG2 files produced in a set top VHS/DVD recorder and edit them on my PC?

That make it kinda pointless, doesn't it?
If you still need further processing after you've finalized output of the recording to a disc on your standalone, then why bother with standalone at all? Do it on your PC.

If all you need is to i.e. tweak some parts or cut the comercials - do it straight on your standalone recorder and be done with it.
But if you still need to re-encode audio, or do any editing further on your PC - then do it in AVI on your PC from the start.

Editing on a PC some of the captures created by some standalone recorders really gave me lots of headaches on few occasions (specially those made in VR mode by people who had no clue what are they doing). You never get this kind of prob with AVIs.

[sjmaye]

Probably the only reason I am looking so hard at the stand alone recorder is that I need a combo vhs dvd recorder anyaway. Saves from buying both and it would be convenient.

What is the best external and internal hardware needed to do this sort of capturing?

[trhouse]

I found this in the DVR-533 manual today,



so the capture to the harddrive is more than just a high bitrate encode.

This recorder centainly sounds interesting, especially considering the price. I saw a listing on eBay last week with a "Buy it Now" price of only $229 for a new DVR-531H. That seems well below the prices of most competitive products. Is the 531 not a Walmart only item?

[sapulidi]

how much bit rate AC3 in dvd recorder?