Picture Quality on DVD Recorders?

[ann coates]

Right now, my overall personal favorites are the new Pioneer DVR-531/533/633 units. They are very well thought out machines with an excellent features and benefits package for video hobbyists.

Same here. I picked up a new Pioneer 531 at Walmart recently and it's amazing. I'm so pleased with it. The picture on the Pioneer is excellent, I find it better than the picture on the old Pioneer line. (I've used a 520 in the past)

[gshelley61]

I was thinking that the HQ+ or XP+ recording quality feature makes recording to a HDD more attractive. I have a few questions:

(1) Does the higher bit rate of XP+ over XP make an obvious visible difference in picture quality, if so with which video sources.

(2) The two brands that I know of that have this feature (Sony & Pioneer) apparently implement it differently when making a DVD video. The Sony re-encodes digitally using a 2pass encoding system. This gives significantly better results than the Digital>Analogue>Digital re-encode used by Pioneer.
Any comments on the accuracy of this statement. Is the Sony implementation that much better from anyone's experience in this group?

I own both units. The second pass is done digitally on both of them, and they both work equally well when it comes to this particular feature. The Pioneer units just cost a whole lot less and have more useful features than the Sony does, and are about half the size (the Sony is huge). Where did you get this Digital>Analogue>Digital re-encode misinformation about the Pioneer?

[donpedro]

...and Pioneer has one available in Japan already...

Not only in Japan

Pioneer DVR-920H-S with HDMI
http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/product_detail.jsp?product_id=9550&taxonomy_id=42-125

[donpedro]

(2) The two brands that I know of that have this feature (Sony & Pioneer) apparently implement it differently when making a DVD video. The Sony re-encodes digitally using a 2pass encoding system. This gives significantly better results than the Digital>Analogue>Digital re-encode used by Pioneer.
Any comments on the accuracy of this statement. Is the Sony implementation that much better from anyone's experience in this group?

Where did you get this information ? I believe (not sure of source) that Pioneer claims same. "2pass encoding system" that is using additional information that was stored at XP+ recording.

This was the source but it is in german

Dual-Pass HDD-auf-DVD Kopie: Die im professionellen Authoring-Bereich eingesetzte Dual-Pass Encoding-Methode nutzen nun auch alle Pioneer HDD/DVD-Recorder des Modelljahres 2005. Diese Methode ermittelt während der Aufnahme auf Festplatte im Zuge des Encodings zusätzliche Informationen (encoding complexity information, GOP structure information), und nutzt diese bei der Überspielung der Inhalte auf DVD, um mit einem optimierten Re-Encoding die Bildqualität der finalen Aufnahme zu verbessern. Im Ergebnis wird die beste Bitrate für jede Szene, und somit die beste Bildqualität erreicht, auf einem Qualitätsniveau, welches niemals mit Real-Time-Encoding erzielt werden könnte.

[spectroelectro]

I own a JVC DRM10 and can second the comments about its high video quality. The Panasonic tends to produce darker and more macroblocked DVDs, probably because of the IRE bug, which has never been fixed in any of the Panasonic models.

My JVC has the "loading" bug and it's a total non-issue. Solution? Unplug the JVC when I go to sleep. The LOADING bug never appears unless teh JVC remains plugged in 24/7. You have to unplug it -- even turned off, the resistor apparently gets loaded.

So the "loading" issue just isn't significant. Claims that the "Panasonic is built like a tank" don't stand up in my experience. Most of the folks I know have gone through multiple Panasonics because of DVD burner failures. One of hte most sinisters failure modes of hte Panasonic is a creeping tendency to produce DVDs which appear to burn correctly, but turn out to be unreadable or riddled with data errors and can't be copied properly on a computer. This appears to occur when the Pansonic's internal DVD burner unit starts to fail.

An internal hard drive is not a significant advantage in the age of the TiVo.

[TBoneit]

I own a JVC DRM10 and can second the comments about its high video quality. The Panasonic tends to produce darker and more macroblocked DVDs, probably because of the IRE bug, which has never been fixed in any of the Panasonic models.

My JVC has the "loading" bug and it's a total non-issue. Solution? Unplug the JVC when I go to sleep. The LOADING bug never appears unless teh JVC remains plugged in 24/7. You have to unplug it -- even turned off, the resistor apparently gets loaded.

So the "loading" issue just isn't significant. Claims that the "Panasonic is built like a tank" don't stand up in my experience. Most of the folks I know have gone through multiple Panasonics because of DVD burner failures. One of hte most sinisters failure modes of hte Panasonic is a creeping tendency to produce DVDs which appear to burn correctly, but turn out to be unreadable or riddled with data errors and can't be copied properly on a computer. This appears to occur when the Pansonic's internal DVD burner unit starts to fail.

An internal hard drive is not a significant advantage in the age of the TiVo.

The loading issue may be a non issue with you, just like the Cyberhome I started out with running way to hot until I took off the cover. But for the average user it is a issue in that it means the unit(s) can not be operated reliably in the manner they were designed for. The internal hard drive is an advantage even in the age of Tivo. With a Tivo you are encoding to digital and then decoding back to analog, then encoding back to digital in the DVD recorder. This has to lead to some quality loss when compared to recording once to a DVD internal HDD and burning.

CHeers

[bgclarke]

I find the JVC vs Panasonic issues interesting, considering they are both "owned" by the same parent company.

I guess this is one of the few times when not sharing components between child companies is a good thing.

[slacker]

I find the JVC vs Panasonic issues interesting, considering they are both "owned" by the same parent company.

I guess this is one of the few times when not sharing components between child companies is a good thing.

What is even more interesting is that internally (within the company) Panasonic is viewed as putting out the higher quality products. JVC has always been the lower quality step child (in their eyes), as it remains today. In talking to JVC field reps, they have commented that they wish Panasonic WOULD share their knowledge and parts with them. As you say, interesting.

[TBoneit]

Back with a free moment. RE: The No internal HDD vs Internal HDD. My perception is that the HDD equipped models are perceived by the maker as higher end models and are thus more feature laden even beyond the HDD itself. I understand that the Pioneer 531 for example has more settings for the signal to be recorded than the current Pioneer non-HDD models.

Editing has to be easier on a hdd equipped machine if for no other reason speed of access to the data. The bit rate can run higher on a HDD equipped model because the Final DVD doesn't have to lose space to commercials. I can record a 2 houir movie to the HDD that runs over 2 1/2 hours with commercials, I edit on the HDD and burn and 1 used the 2 Bitrate setting because I was planning to edit. If I didn't have the HDD I would have had to record the 2 1/2 hour setting and thus a lower bitrate.

[lordsmurf]

I find the JVC vs Panasonic issues interesting, considering they are both "owned" by the same parent company.

I guess this is one of the few times when not sharing components between child companies is a good thing.

What is even more interesting is that internally (within the company) Panasonic is viewed as putting out the higher quality products. JVC has always been the lower quality step child (in their eyes), as it remains today. In talking to JVC field reps, they have commented that they wish Panasonic WOULD share their knowledge and parts with them. As you say, interesting.

I would not say that. JVC and Panasonic have different markets they serve.

The companies do not share anything, they are separate companies, not really even competitors most of the time. Just owned by Matsushita, nothing else in common.

JVC is mostly "pro-sumer" gear, like the S-VHS units and these DVD recorders. They have a few consumer things, like VHS players and DVD players, but not a lot. Prosumer is low end professional quality stuff, usually too expensive for consumers. Often the preferred choice of serious hobbyists.

Panasonic is mostly high end "professional" gear, like DV50 cameras. Or low end "consumer" gear, like the cheap DV cameras, DVD recorders and VHS VCRs.

Oh yeah, Panasonic HDD are not tanks. Lots of U99 and outright HDD failures on many of their units, especially the E80 and E85 series. The ES30 has not been out long enough, but knowing Panasonic, that will be a problem in about a year here. They use crappy Maxtor drives is why, cheap morons.

[trhouse]

A minor correction, Lordsmurf probably means the Panasonic DMR-EH50 which has the 100 GB hdd. The ES30 is a combo.

[satwar]

I own both units. The second pass is done digitally on both of them, and they both work equally well when it comes to this particular feature. The Pioneer units just cost a whole lot less and have more useful features than the Sony does, and are about half the size (the Sony is huge). Where did you get this Digital>Analogue>Digital re-encode misinformation about the Pioneer?

The German text submitted by Donpedro seems to roughly translate as:

Dual passport HDD up DVD copy: Now also all Pioneer HDD/DVD recorder of model year uses the dual passport Encoding method used in the professional Authoring range 2005. This method determined during the admission on non removable disk in the course of the Encodings additional information (encoding complexity information, GOP structure information), and uses these with overacting contents on DVD, in order to improve with an optimized RH-Encoding the image quality of the final admission. In the result the best bit rate for each scene becomes, and thus the best image quality reaches, on a quality level, which could be never obtained with material time Encoding.

This agrees with what gshelly61 is saying about Pioneer. The source of the information about Sony being better than Pioneer with regard to HQ+ to DVD conversion came from a UK forum AVForum. Unfortunately their loudest spokeperson is a staunch supporter of Panasonic, so there's not much to discuss there. They do praise Pioneer PQ though. If this story about Pioneer is truly false, as it appears to be, then the credibility of this spokesperson is highly suspect in my books, as he has repeated it many times. The problem is Pioneer doen't even talk about HQ+ to DVD conversion on their features/benifits page, so it's hard to find out the truth.

[gshelley61]

You'll find that most of the consumer electronics companies don't go into that much detail in their marketing materials about their product features or how they work. For example, Pioneer simply calls all those very useful video input and output adjustments "Picture Creation" and leaves it at that. When you read the manual, you find out more specifically what the machines can really do.

[satwar]

For some reason I've lost the edit post feature for this forum, so I have to make a separate post regarding the source of the information on HQ+ to DVD conversion:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233697&highlight=pioneer+dvr-530h-s

[satwar]

Sony has a high end DVD recorder available soon that will have a HDMI (digital video) output... I will definitely be checking that one out.

There's a fairly recent first look review of the new Sony, as released in Europe.

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20050628/index.html

gshelley61:

Based on your experience with Sony DVD Recorders does it sound like it will compete with the new Pioneers. In the article they compare with an older model Pioneer, which is not entirely fair. Flexible recording seems more flexible than old Sony's but not as good as Pioneers. Of course the new Sony records to all DVD formats (I don't see HDMI, but they're reviewing the European model). Sounds like their video editing feature set has improved.

What are you looking for in the new Sony that would peak your interest? What price range should it selling in to be competitive?

[gshelley61]

The new Sony might be of interest to me because of the HDMI out, because it would save some space in my home theater system (where I have a Bravo D1 DVD player with DVI out and a Pioneer DVR-420H DVD recorder with a 320GB hard drive upgrade). For my separate video project setup, the new Pioneer units are more versatile and flexible in terms of overall recording features, so I prefer my Pioneer DVR-531H over the Sony RDR-HX900 I have on hand.

[satwar]

The new Sony might be of interest to me because of the HDMI out, because it would save some space in my home theater system (where I have a Bravo D1 DVD player with DVI out and a Pioneer DVR-420H DVD recorder with a 320GB hard drive upgrade). For my separate video project setup, the new Pioneer units are more versatile and flexible in terms of overall recording features, so I prefer my Pioneer DVR-531H over the Sony RDR-HX900 I have on hand.

Is there an advantage to the double layer being in + format (Sony) or than - format(Pioneer)? I suppose they are only playable in the machines that they are burnt in because most players can't play them yet.

Another question: I keep reading different claims about 10 & 12 bit video DAC & ADC on various recorders. How do you find out what is being used in a particular recorder? I suppose it really doesn't matter, because the only thing that counts is the resulting picture quality.

[TBoneit]

Satwar, You may have it backwards as the Pioneer is a "-" type recorder. IE -R or -RW media.

Cheers

[satwar]

Well it looks like this thread has run out of steam.

I wish to thank all those who have participated in helping me in this thread. I learned more than I ever thought I would, and now feel much more confident about going to the stores. This thread went way beyond the original scope of learning about picture quality and actually got me thinking about features I may like to have.

Thanks again for your help. Much appreciated.

[LCSHG]

[TBoneit]

What machine do you have that has 2 1/2 hr recording mode.

[TBoneit]

The Pioneer 531H, it has a variable time setting that in the 2 to 3 hour range. at the 2 hour \point I can choose in 10 minute increments. Or I can record at XP+ 15Mb setting and let it resize to fit when it burns, although that process runs in real time.

[lordsmurf]

[TBoneit]
What machine do you have that has 2 1/2 hr recording mode.

Any machine with FR mode. Pioneer and JVC, for example.

[Marvingj]

Toshiba has FR Mode.

[oldfart13]

I'm still waiting for that U99 error on my Panasonic E80H. When is it supposed to happen? Been heavily recording on the recorder since October 2003. I hope it happens soon...

The IRE level bug in the Pannies was fixed some time ago. Someone needs to read up on the Panasonics rather than just bash them out of hand.

The new Sony looks a treat and should be in within a few weeks according to my sources at the local Sony Store. I'll reserve judgement on it until I get to test it myself...

[slacker]

I would not say that. JVC and Panasonic have different markets they serve.

The companies do not share anything, they are separate companies, not really even competitors most of the time. Just owned by Matsushita, nothing else in common.

JVC is mostly "pro-sumer" gear, like the S-VHS units and these DVD recorders. They have a few consumer things, like VHS players and DVD players, but not a lot. Prosumer is low end professional quality stuff, usually too expensive for consumers. Often the preferred choice of serious hobbyists.

Panasonic is mostly high end "professional" gear, like DV50 cameras. Or low end "consumer" gear, like the cheap DV cameras, DVD recorders and VHS VCRs.

Oh yeah, Panasonic HDD are not tanks. Lots of U99 and outright HDD failures on many of their units, especially the E80 and E85 series. The ES30 has not been out long enough, but knowing Panasonic, that will be a problem in about a year here. They use crappy Maxtor drives is why, cheap morons.

lordsmurf,

I think you missed my whole point! In the eyes of the mother company and their own employees, and the eyes of most consumers here in CA, Panasonic has ALWAYS been considered the more upscale brand. I didn't make this up. I have no vested interest in either company. It is simply one of those FACTS of life that you can't ignore or sweep under the rug, although why would anyone want to do that?

The consensus, in my lifetime, has been that JVC has puts out acceptable YET 2nd rate products, and Panasonic has always competed successfully with the king, SONY. After listening to knowledgeable STAFF (not grunts) at four leading electronics stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, Good Guys, Video ONLY) just recently, this view has NOT changed. Panasonic still puts out the better TV, camcorder, vhs vcr (NOT svhs) and dvd recorder. Not my opinion, theirs.

I won't argue with you. Your views are your own. And I don't have the time. But your colorization of Panasonic and JVC is pure fantasy and you have successfully widdled away my "humble opinion" of your "honored opinion" to about NOTHING. Your "honored opinion" is very "opinionated" and one-sided and, therefore, useless to anyone who really wants an objective view of the markets. That's too bad, really.

I'm not here to pick on you, but I have been in IT for 25 years (from assembler programmer to senior executive) and I am sick and tired of supposed EXPERTS moving people down the wrong PATH for no other reason than their skills just weren't up to par, they were over their head, and they need to save face. That just doesn't cut it.

My recommendation is that you lose the attitude, stop bashing Panasonic, and gain back your reputation which is slowly caving in. I can feel it!

[/quote]

[ejai]

Slacker you are 100% correct, this why many of us who like the Panasonic machines no longer post on this forum. We are tired of being beaten up by Lordsmurf and his overly opinionated responses.

I own both machines and still prefer to use the Panasonic over the JVC. I feel the JVC washes out the vivid colors and softens the image too much. Many other reviews have also chosen the Panasonic as one of the better recorders on the market today.

This forum is one of the only places that treats the Panasonic brand as if it is garbage. I still use both machines depending on my needs. I do admit that the JVC does a better job with vhs tapes and that is because of the filters that soften the noise output and creates a more smoother looking video clip.

This is only my opinion.

[slacker]

Thanks ejai.

But even your comment regarding the JVC being better at VHS due to it's noise reduction I simply cannot buy. I carefully studied the output from both Panasonic and JVC recorders, and I still think that with the noise reduction JVC eliminates too much detail. Everyone I show the comparisons to WITHOUT mentioning the maker or method states without solicitation that the Panasonic produces the better video.

If I was in the business of converting VHS and used a JVC, and my competitor across the street used a Panasonic, and the customers in the area were savvy enough to comparison shop, I would be out of business in no time. That has been my REAL LIFE (not theory) experience.

Until something better comes along (and it will sooner or later), I'll stick with my CURRENT Panny.

[ejai]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, I agree the JVC does take a lot of the detail out of the video that is why I have problems with it. What I am talking about is the vhs tapes that are very noisy with artifacts, I found that the JVC masks them a little better than the Panasonic did.

Yet I was still unhappy with the results because the detail was lost in the process. I continue to use the Panasonic because I like sharpness and color in my videos. This was not the case when I used the JVC.

[slacker]

Gotcha ejai. I was confused. Nearly all of my VHS tapes are in great shape (no artifacts) so my focus hasn't been on correction, rather simply EXACT reproduction. If I had serious tape issues I MIGHT give JVC a more serious look.

[ejai]

If I had serious tape issues I MIGHT give JVC a more serious look.

If you do, make sure you have some type of video enhancement device to maintain the levels of color and sharpness that the JVC lacks. I use mine with either Sima or Vidicraft. I don't like the results I get from the JVC recorder alone, especially since I've seen what the Panasonic recorder can do.