Picture Quality on DVD Recorders?

[satwar]

I'm a newbie to DVD Recorders and need some help finding a good quality DVD recorder. Cost is not a big issue because I think I can control that by the size of HDD included in the package, if having any at all. But I do need some guidance as to which brands have the fewest flaws in picture quality. The machine must also be reliable, no "loading" bug errors, failing hard drives, bad firmware, etc, I'm not interested in buying something that is cheap, rather something that is good.

I have no preference as to type of media used. I like the concept of HDMI output, as it is probably the interconnect of the future, but worry a bit about how well it will be implemented. I've read good things from LordSmurf about JVC picture quality due to LSI chip set but other discussion groups seem to favour Panasonic, Pioneer or Sony.

Any help appreciated to help my research efforts. I find staring at units on store shelves does nothing to help, except me know which brands are readily available. That probably gives more indication of retail profitability than anything else. JVC is not readily available in my city, probably because they are pricier and hence low volume, but "where there's a will, there's a way".

[donpedro]

What I did is that I created small Excel spreadsheet and listed all the features that I wanted and slowly I came to conlusion to which one to buy. Now I own Pioneer DVR-630H. I had my own reasons but I am more than happy with it.

[lordsmurf]

Get one of the new JVC units. For example, the DR-M10 was replaced by the DR-M100. The only differences they made in the new ones were cosmetic, as well as a new resistor to prevent loading. No loading issues are reported with the newest lines of units.

If JVC is not available, I would look into a Pioneer. The newest Pioneer units supposedly have better filters than the older Pioneer units, but still not as good as the LSI chipset for cleaning up video.

LiteOn does well from s-video fed sources, but the tuner is pretty much the pits on these newer ones. I have the LiteN 5104 as of this past weekend, and I've already used it for a small personal project of mine, converting 13 S-VHS tapes.

I have to admit Panasonic is built like a tank, but it drives about as good as a tank too, with chunky block images in extended modes, and even hints of blocks (splotches) in the 2-hour mode. Terrible on tapes, only decent with off-air recordings. I use mine when I'm in a bind, but I can always tell what was made on the Panasonic and what was made on the JVC when they are put on the same disc.

[victoriabears]

I have to say I have come to the same conclusion about panasonic as Lordsmurf, nice unit but at best variable picture quality, for instance, I recorded from cable input to my HD version of panasonic and the quality is amazing, but from vhs and off digital cable not so good, remember we are folks who spend a lot of time with a lot of equipment adn we do get super critical.

It would be nice if it were a "rule" on this forum if posters had to put a country, helps with assistance such as you request.

In Canada, I have to vote for Daytek, but they are not as tough as the big brands, eg: panasonic/Toshiba, Daytek has the lsi chip I believe that lordsmurf likes.

Having said that all electronic equipment lasts longer if it is treated with the same respect you gave the amount you spent on it.

I really like my Toshiba, its very nice to use, great picture quality.

My 2c worth.

[satwar]

What I did is that I created small Excel spreadsheet and listed all the features that I wanted and slowly I came to conlusion to which one to buy. Now I own Pioneer DVR-630H. I had my own reasons but I am more than happy with it.

I'd be interested in your opinion on strengths and weaknesses of this unit because it's definitely on my short list. It looks likely to come down to Panasonic (which has flooded the stores with various models), or Pioneer.

Have you had any experience with transferring S-VHS to DVD using your recorder, because I use a Hi-8 camcorder, which would be nice to transfer to DVD?

Thank you for your response.

[satwar]

Get one of the new JVC units. For example, the DR-M10 was replaced by the DR-M100. The only differences they made in the new ones were cosmetic, as well as a new resistor to prevent loading. No loading issues are reported with the newest lines of units.

If JVC is not available, I would look into a Pioneer. The newest Pioneer units supposedly have better filters than the older Pioneer units, but still not as good as the LSI chipset for cleaning up video.

LiteOn does well from s-video fed sources, but the tuner is pretty much the pits on these newer ones. I have the LiteN 5104 as of this past weekend, and I've already used it for a small personal project of mine, converting 13 S-VHS tapes.

I have to admit Panasonic is built like a tank, but it drives about as good as a tank too, with chunky block images in extended modes, and even hints of blocks (splotches) in the 2-hour mode. Terrible on tapes, only decent with off-air recordings. I use mine when I'm in a bind, but I can always tell what was made on the Panasonic and what was made on the JVC when they are put on the same disc.

You certainly don't hold back any punches when it comes to Panasonic. I've actually never seen anyone anywhere put down the image quality of JVC but there are concerns about reliability, dubbing performance, and price. It is also very hard to find in my northern Ontario city.

Interesting comment about feeding VCR signals to Panasonic, as if you were reading my mind, I use a S-VHS output Hi8 camcorder so this is concerning. Wasn't it Pioneer that used to have trouble using VCR tapes as a source?

I must admit I started out as a Panasonic fan, based on first look editorial reviews, but the voices of experience are leaning me towards Pioneer (I've always liked their Elite series equipment). The tips & tricks section for Panasonic sort of left me with an uncomfortable feeling that they are finicky machines to get good performance, although that was not the intent of the author.

[satwar]

I have to say I have come to the same conclusion about panasonic as Lordsmurf, nice unit but at best variable picture quality, for instance, I recorded from cable input to my HD version of panasonic and the quality is amazing, but from vhs and off digital cable not so good, remember we are folks who spend a lot of time with a lot of equipment adn we do get super critical.

It would be nice if it were a "rule" on this forum if posters had to put a country, helps with assistance such as you request.

In Canada, I have to vote for Daytek, but they are not as tough as the big brands, eg: panasonic/Toshiba, Daytek has the lsi chip I believe that lordsmurf likes.

Having said that all electronic equipment lasts longer if it is treated with the same respect you gave the amount you spent on it.

I really like my Toshiba, its very nice to use, great picture quality.

My 2c worth.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

Since I'm looking for reliability not cheapness, I think I'll stay away from Daytek, although this is a gut feeling not based on any experience.

Other than the JVC DR-M100, I don't think any other "loading" bug free units have been offered yet, or am I mistaken.

[bbanderic]

For the $200 price range w/no hard drive I would go with the JVC DR-M100, hands down, excellent unit. I wouldn't even consider the Panasonic for the reasons LS mentioned, I had one, I know from experience.

Units with hard drive, I would go with the Pioneer 533 or 633, the 533 can be had for around $359.

[trhouse]

You might want to check out this thread,

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=263530

There are direct comparisons of Panasonic vs JVC towards the end courtesy of GShelley61

[Neuron]

....Other than the JVC DR-M100, I don't think any other "loading" bug free units have been offered yet, or am I mistaken.

satwar,

I'm an owner of JVC DR-MH30 and I'm using this machine pretty much intensive now. No "loading" and/or "freezing" problems. Unit is staying "On" all the time.
Mine is December 2004 built unit and so far I'm very happy with.

BTW - I also have JVC DR-M10 and I've got 0 problems with this model too.

[piano632]

Also, new hard drive model JVC DR-MH300 is due out soon.

[handyguy]

Panasonic e500 with 400 gig HD, $450 at buy.com after 10% coupon. Add tax if you're in one of their states.

Picture quality isn't any better than what your tv can display & no one mentions what tv they have.

[satwar]

Just read an interesting but troubling thread on AVSForums that copy quality of S-VHS tape material is better on new Panasonic (ES-10) than on new Pioneer(531).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=569812

I can't understand how this behaviour could take until now to be revealed? At least one other member of the group is going to have the equipment to confirm the findings. This is of interest to me because I'd like to continue using my Hi-8 camcorder and then transfer to DVD.

Surely this topic must have been covered by this group somewhere?

[satwar]

Also, new hard drive model JVC DR-MH300 is due out soon.

That's certainly worth a wait for.

[satwar]

You might want to check out this thread,

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=263530

There are direct comparisons of Panasonic vs JVC towards the end courtesy of GShelley61

Man, my head hurts after reading that thread, even though I really don't understand what you guys were talking about. One thing that struck me is that differences in PQ of the still images of Ice Age were rather slight to my eyes. The differences in test patterns were more obvious. I suppose picture dynamics are another story again.

[trhouse]

"I suppose picture dynamics are another story again."

That is why we did the .vob files. To view the action, just download to your computer. They can be burnt to a disk for viewing on a dvd player or you can view them on your computer by just changing the extension from .vob to .mpg. Then they will play on Windows Media player.

[donpedro]

I'd be interested in your opinion on strengths and weaknesses of this unit because it's definitely on my short list. It looks likely to come down to Panasonic (which has flooded the stores with various models), or Pioneer.

Have you had any experience with transferring S-VHS to DVD using your recorder, because I use a Hi-8 camcorder, which would be nice to transfer to DVD?

Thank you for your response.

Only recordings done so far are from tuner (PAL) and from DV input (NTSC camcorder). I was surprised to see great quality at 2 hours mode recorded from DV input since some time ago I had Philips recorder and it was not usable at more then 1h mode for home shaky video footage.

The reasons behind my purchase were: 1- EU (PAL) model 2- It records NTSC too. 3- reported picture quality is good in all reviews and post, maybe not the best but still high compare to others. 4- it is new line that came out recently. 5- it has big 250GB HD (mayne us to replace VCR) 6- a lot off tweaking settings 7- XP+ mode for HQ picture on recordings that need some editings before final record. 8- and al last... it does everything that I need from DVD recorder today

[gshelley61]

Just read an interesting but troubling thread on AVSForums that copy quality of S-VHS tape material is better on new Panasonic (ES-10) than on new Pioneer(531).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=569812

I can't understand how this behaviour could take until now to be revealed? At least one other member of the group is going to have the equipment to confirm the findings. This is of interest to me because I'd like to continue using my Hi-8 camcorder and then transfer to DVD.

Surely this topic must have been covered by this group somewhere?

Take online forum reviews with a grain of salt. HoustonGuy is a well known avsforum member that posts nothing but "Panasonic DVD recorders are far superior" stuff. Much of his ramblings are pure horse crap.

The fact is, most name brand DVD recorders do a great job, depending on how they are set up. Some units have advantages over other units. Some have better encoding performance (on longer recordings, especially). Some have superior picture adjustment capabilities. Some have better features in terms of hard drive recording, editing and copying. The bottom line is to get a machine that has the features you need to do what it is you are trying to accomplish.

Right now, my overall personal favorites are the new Pioneer DVR-531/533/633 units. They are very well thought out machines with an excellent features and benefits package for video hobbyists. I'm sure there will be other machines that will be introduced soon that will even be better. Sony has a high end DVD recorder available soon that will have a HDMI (digital video) output... I will definitely be checking that one out.

[satwar]

The fact is, most name brand DVD recorders do a great job, depending on how they are set up. Some units have advantages over other units. Some have better encoding performance (on longer recordings, especially). Some have superior picture adjustment capabilities. Some have better features in terms of hard drive recording, editing and copying. The bottom line is to get a machine that has the features you need to do what it is you are trying to accomplish.

I have tried rereading trhouse's thread on video quality of Panasonic ES-10 and I started coming to the same conclusion that under optimal conditions all these brands are good picture quality. When you start pushing the envelope for longer recording times and various imperfect sources that you start to see variation in performance.

I notice that you had a lot of input on trhouse's thread regarding quality of Panasonic ES-10. The discussion went a little over my head. What was your conclusion from that thread?

[piano632]

Sony has a high end DVD recorder available soon that will have a HDMI (digital video) output... I will definitely be checking that one out.

JVC's DR-MH300 (U.S. version) will also have HDMI with 720p/1020i up-conversion.

http://www.jvc.com/support/brochures/video/2005DigitalVideo.pdf

[satwar]

Sony has a high end DVD recorder available soon that will have a HDMI (digital video) output... I will definitely be checking that one out.

JVC's DR-MH300 (U.S. version) will also have HDMI with 720p/1020i up-conversion.

http://www.jvc.com/support/brochures/video/2005DigitalVideo.pdf

I'm a little confused about HDMI output, from non-HD sources. I don't know very much but wouldn't you need some pretty sophisticated scaling software and hardware to do a good job on this. Is it economically feasible to be including a good scaler in DVD Recorders (after all, isn't that why they build separate scalers)? I have read that the quality of scalers built into fixed pixel TV's are highly variable in quality, so I suspect this incorporation of HDMI output will add another level of complexity and consideration to DVD Recorders.

[DVWannaB]

Sony has a high end DVD recorder available soon that will have a HDMI (digital video) output... I will definitely be checking that one out.

JVC's DR-MH300 (U.S. version) will also have HDMI with 720p/1020i up-conversion.

http://www.jvc.com/support/brochures/video/2005DigitalVideo.pdf

Hmmmmm.....no dual layer support (DVD-R DL) !!! What gives JVC? Missing the boat or just waiting for the whole Blue-Ray & DVD-HD dust to settle?

[trhouse]

You might want to view this thread as well,

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=273291

It is instructive not because of the recorders involved but that the process to determine what you or your audience may want to see is not always so straightforward as one would assume.

[bokkasrealm]

Another vote for a Pioneer unit. The only drawback so far is the slightly long loading time on -RW's and the clunky menu for finalizing the discs. Other than that, the picture is wonderful, the playback in other units I have is perfect.

BTW: I have a Pioneer 225

[lordsmurf]

Ignore that avsforum Panasonic spammer.

Most machines are fine in 2-hour mode directly off tv. It's when you start to transfer VHS tapes, or use extended times, that you see huge variations in quality of performance. And then there are features to consider, like editing, TIVO, etc.

I work A WHOLE LOT with S-VHS and VHS tapes, and I prefer to capture at the resolution of the source, not far above it. Therefore I needed a machine that filtered the signal decently, and then had a high quality encoder that did well at longer than a measly 2 hours. I chose the LSI chips, and I prefer the JVC models most. LiteOn if you cannot find or afford the JVC (although LiteOn is not a great tuner for coax signals).

[gshelley61]

Sony has a high end DVD recorder available soon that will have a HDMI (digital video) output... I will definitely be checking that one out.

JVC's DR-MH300 (U.S. version) will also have HDMI with 720p/1020i up-conversion.

http://www.jvc.com/support/brochures/video/2005DigitalVideo.pdf

I'm a little confused about HDMI output, from non-HD sources. I don't know very much but wouldn't you need some pretty sophisticated scaling software and hardware to do a good job on this. Is it economically feasible to be including a good scaler in DVD Recorders (after all, isn't that why they build separate scalers)? I have read that the quality of scalers built into fixed pixel TV's are highly variable in quality, so I suspect this incorporation of HDMI output will add another level of complexity and consideration to DVD Recorders.

Upscaling DVD players with DVI or HDMI digital video output have been around for several years (Bravo, Denon, Panasonic, Samsung, LG/Zenith, Momitsu, Oppo, etc.)

Most use either Faroudja or Sigma processors to do the scaling, and the results are often very good. I've had a Bravo D1 (which uses the Sigma 8500 chip) hooked up to a 1280x720p Samsung DLP HDTV for more than two years now and the picture quality is awesome, especially with a very good film to DVD transfer like Lord of The Rings.

It's not a big deal to add upscaling digital video output to a DVD recorder. Toshiba already has one on the market, and Pioneer has one available in Japan already. I'd like one so I can retire my separate Bravo player and Pioneer DVD recorder for my home theater setup.

[satwar]

I was thinking that the HQ+ or XP+ recording quality feature makes recording to a HDD more attractive. I have a few questions:

(1) Does the higher bit rate of XP+ over XP make an obvious visible difference in picture quality, if so with which video sources.

(2) The two brands that I know of that have this feature (Sony & Pioneer) apparently implement it differently when making a DVD video. The Sony re-encodes digitally using a 2pass encoding system. This gives significantly better results than the Digital>Analogue>Digital re-encode used by Pioneer.
Any comments on the accuracy of this statement. Is the Sony implementation that much better from anyone's experience in this group?

[satwar]

You might want to view this thread as well,

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=273291

It is instructive not because of the recorders involved but that the process to determine what you or your audience may want to see is not always so straightforward as one would assume.

Thanks for this reference, it makes me feel a whole lot better.

I can see what each participant is talking about regarding picture quality but the final impression is dependant on the observer, some observers are more sensitive about some issues than others.

This makes my original thread topic even dumber than I thought it was, but I had to start my thought process somewhere.

[LCSHG]

This post is mine from another site

Using Ilo DVDRHD04 [80gb HDD]

Ijust recorded Gone With The Wind [2 tapes] and Titanic [2 tapes] on a DVD at EP [4hr]. Both filled the disk to 4Hr 2min 49sec.
The quality is as good as the original tapes. I and others cannot see any difference betteen the original tape and the copy. Titanic has better detail than Gone With The Wind.
The copy from the tape of titanic does not appear to be much, if any, different than a commercial DVD of titanic.

Add to above I recorded to the HDD and than copied to the DVD. The picture quality on this unit is very good with the LSI chipset. If anyone is going to dub VHS to DVD you will run into MV and the only unit to have is a LiteOn or the Ilo [04]

[LCSHG]

I might add that if I copy a comercial DVD to this ILo DVD it would take a lot better than 20/20 eyesight to see any difference if there were a difference.