Blue ray anti copying agreed.

[hudsonf]

Eventually, none of us may have a choice when it comes to HDTV.

In some fashion, here in the USA at least, the population will be forced to upgrade their televsions (new/replacement or set top box) in order to watch television - no matter the resolution being sent/received.

What most seem to forget, in my humble opinion, is that all current Standard Definition televisions do not and will not have the ability to receive hdtv frequencies by themselves. And who wants to watch hdtv broadcasts downconverted to SD resolutions??\

According to our "illustrious" FCC/government decision(s), it's progress.
And it won't be a question of if - but when.

I'll go back to reading books and spending more time with the family.

[somebodeez]

Eventually, none of us may have a choice when it comes to HDTV.

In some fashion, here in the USA at least, the population will be forced to upgrade their televsions (new/replacement or set top box) in order to watch television - no matter the resolution being sent/received.

What most seem to forget, in my humble opinion, is that all current Standard Definition televisions do not and will not have the ability to receive hdtv frequencies by themselves. And who wants to watch hdtv broadcasts downconverted to SD resolutions??\

According to our "illustrious" FCC/government decision(s), it's progress.
And it won't be a question of if - but when.

We went out to dinner the other night and the restaurant had some regular TVs over the bar plus an HDTV.
The picture I saw on the HDTV looked absolutely horrible. I saw strange rainbow like colors and a sort of ghosting effect (that was wild ) but the picture quality on the regular TVs was just fine.
I was not impressed by "high definition" at all and don't see the need to go out and drop a couple thousand on an HDTV just yet if that's what it looks like

As for this new self renewable content protection on the Blu Ray, no thank you. The idea of having to go out and buy a new player every time somebody somewhere else "compromises" their player and it happens to be the same model as mine doesn't appeal to me either.

[yoda313]

Hi,

of course if no one buys these things because they have to be online or could be wacked out of action at any time or can not play your own backups in them

Yep that will really slow down the next gen format. If they expect you to HAVE to be online to watch a simple movie I don't think that will fly too well. Personally I think there will have to be some kind of compromise somewhere that will limit p2p/ripping but still allow backups to be made. They're trying that on some audio cds I think.

Kevin

[painkiller]

Hey there, not-a-stranger (somebodeez).

I had a very interesting discussion with a fellow engineer today about his hdtv setup. He receives his from just an indoor set of uhf table top antenna. (And this isn't too far from Baltimore.)

He says the picture is fine most of the time, but because he has lots of trees and bushed in hid community, he can tell when the wind picks up just by watching what's on screen. Other than that, he likes it.

I get the impression that, unless he puts up a better aerial on top of the house, or tower, he would have to get either digital cable to supply his hdtv, or a satellite dish.

So, I am wondering that the restaurant you saw this - sounds like they had a similar setup this fellow has.

[painkiller]

Oh, as a by-the-way to you, Somebodeez, recently I noticed at Costco that they have put up signs around their video displays announcing that the hdtv sets are receiving hdtv programs. (Of course, you have to know exactly what program schedule is transmitting hdtv at the time.)

Bill and I noticed them a couple weeks ago. I never saw such full, clear and crisp pictures.

All this tells me is to forget over the air reception if you want consistent, high quality video.

[Nelson37]

I think what was seen in the bar was an SD signal displayed on an HD set. Most HD sets I have seen look awful with an SD signal. Except for the CRT models.

Somebody asked who would want to watch a down-sampled HD signal. Well, me, for one. My testing has shown that a down-sampled HD signal is significantly superior to the same program broadcast simultaneously in SD. FWIW, such a down-sampled signal is free of copy protection, and outside of DVD output, is the best looking capture source available.

I should point out that I do not have an HD set, nor will I in the near future. However, I may get HD on satellite purely for the enhanced quality of the down-sampled signal, mainly for the upcoming football season.

[Skynet107]

I think the difference between currently available HD content (which is hardly any) and the next-gen HD players if a matter of motivation.

There is not much point in spending the effort to crack the current protection schemes when there is so little of it available. But it is a very different story when HD players and discs become mainstream. Then you will see the hackers and crackers working overtime to get around it. And I honestly believe they will in some form or another.

The recording industry is very stupid IMO. What they don't realize is people WANT to purchase good material. I never, ever pirate something that I really like because I want the original. It's worth it to me. I would love to have my favorite movies in HD and will happily purchase them but ONLY if they are not hamstrung by copy protection out the yin-yang.

[lenti_75]

this is BS, nothing will be true.
they can't force you to be on line or phone to watch a movie.

when you'll buy a HD laptop or desktop drive, still have to be online ????

here is the crack........

[davideck]

this is BS, nothing will be true.
they can't force you to be on line or phone to watch a movie.

Do you remember the original DIVX?

[doppletwo]

It's a no-brainer to me that I will not be buying HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players and discs if such outrageous protections indeed will take place. However, my biggest fear is that the industry might decide to forcefully phase out standard definition DVD's as soon as possible (at least in North America) so you have no other choice, but to buy HD-DVD or BD equipment and software if you want to continue to watch movies. I really hope that's not going to happen any time soon.

...

...And so these new formats will be doomed, unless they are forced up our throats and standard DVD's are no longer sold.

If they pahsed out standard DVD's this would be a pirates dream. Basically it would do for them what the prohibition of Alcohol did for Al Capone. Otherwise it would make pirates very rich. And it even could possibly to turf wars and violence.


If pirates were the only source for standards DVD's they could make some serious money.

[somebodeez]

Oh, as a by-the-way to you, Somebodeez, recently I noticed at Costco that they have put up signs around their video displays announcing that the hdtv sets are receiving hdtv programs. (Of course, you have to know exactly what program schedule is transmitting hdtv at the time.)

Bill and I noticed them a couple weeks ago. I never saw such full, clear and crisp pictures.

All this tells me is to forget over the air reception if you want consistent, high quality video.

Hey there, PK

Interesting...

We'd be receiving our HD from cable or perhaps through fiber when/if that ever comes our way. I don't know how the restaraunt was receiving their signal but it sure looked a mess on their HDTV but just fine on the regular sets.

All this stuff makes my head spin

I don't want to have to worry about antennas or burn-in (sounds like we're regressing here) or calibrating (not sure what that means. I saw that mentioned else where though and thought I'd add that to my list of things I don't want to fuss with :P ) or getting locked out of my DVD/HD/Blu Ray player etc.

I just want TVs and set top players that I can hook my stuff up to and everything will work the way that I want.
All of my movies in their current format must look as fine as they do now and I want to be able to cap to my heart's content like the way my set up is now, fuss free and digital channels must be displayed as good as they are now (not worse!)
Otherwise, it seems like a downgrade to me.

Phase 1 - buy all new stuff
Phase 2 -
Phase 3 - Enjoy

[satviewer2000]

I can think of one way a high-def signal can be "copied" no matter what format it's in.

You can use a projector on one end, focus it onto a "telecine-type converter" and then pick up the output using a high-def camcorder. Sure, this won't be pristine digital quality, but it will be in HD resolution, and will likely look better than the current NTSC signals.

Isn't this the way us oldies used to copy our 8mm stuff onto VHS tapes?

[painkiller]

Somebodeez,
(I thought Phase 3 was PROFIT!)

Anyway, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments.
As to others here seemingly interested in "getting around" the issue by finding different ways to record what you want - that's just fine and dandy. If it works for you, then by all means go to it.

All I try to point out are the problem spots with the new/upcoming technology as best as I learn it. And I would prefer to keep going with new technology and not revert to older stuff.

As the idealism shows in me - I would much rather the companies and manufacturers come to realize that it is the minority that is causing all this piracy grief. And then, it is also their greed wanting to no longer put up with what has previously been known as "the cost of doing business (meaning they have to swallow some percentage of losses)."

They are overspending to attempt to bring to market devices that will eliminate loss and make them 100% profit.

And that, is PHASE 3!

[somebodeez]

Somebodeez,
(I thought Phase 3 was PROFIT!)

Well I was thinking from my perspective as a possible purchaser of all this new stuff. I think phase 2 will involve someone fixing all of these issues so I can get to phase 3
But I'm not even on phase 1 yet.
Hmmm...maybe phase 2 will have to come before I get to phase 1



say Cheese!

[BJ_M]

I can think of one way a high-def signal can be "copied" no matter what format it's in.

You can use a projector on one end, focus it onto a "telecine-type converter" and then pick up the output using a high-def camcorder. Sure, this won't be pristine digital quality, but it will be in HD resolution, and will likely look better than the current NTSC signals.

Isn't this the way us oldies used to copy our 8mm stuff onto VHS tapes?

not if it uses a color wheel ..... but at that point you could afford to buy 5 copies of everything on HDDVD

[dantruon]

so does this mean that we cannot backup our blu-ray movie for home use only??

[Raen]

If they make it impossible to back up a NexGen(either format) disk thats ok with me as long as I get a guarantee on my movie that if its scratched or damaged I can send it in for a new one. If they can come up with encryption so advanced that its unbreakable I'll be all for it. Except if A) Force me to connect my player to the internet or any place it can be monitored, modified or "broken" or B) Make my player unable to play because some jackoff in Russia discovered a hack for the same Hd-player I happened to buy.

If any Blu-Ray/HD-DvD developers read this let me repeat myself...

I will not buy you super crisp, 'life-like," incredible looking, amazing super Hi-Definition player under NO circumstances if I have to have it tooked up to my phone line or the internet. Your invasion of MY home is unreasonable and unacceptable and I'd sooner go without HD content than give you the right to come into my house for ANY reason. Secondly I will not buy you supped up supper machine if you have a method of making it self-destruct.

Any other reasonable measure you feel like taking to make sure digital content isn't "stolen." copied of pirated I'm all for. But the second you decide its ok to check-up on your consumers by entering their houses(virutally) or breaking their machines is the second you cross the line and I won't have it in my house.

[BJ_M]

i think the fact having to have the player on-line will kill this format very quickly ... at least in north america

[painkiller]

Yes, quite right.

I have said this before with respect to other software as well...

To make products require the use of the Internet, when the overall function/goal doesn't require the Internet - those manufacturers have some explaining to do.

(And don't feel bad when we are no longer interested in those products.)

[-jsl-]

You will NOT have to connect your player to the Internet to just play a BD or HD DVD. Even the Hollywood studios have realized the formats would flop if they required that...

[BJ_M]

You will NOT have to connect your player to the Internet to just play a BD or HD DVD. Even the Hollywood studios have realized the formats would flop if they required that...

please read the specs carefully-- i will quote just from a part:

the AACS specification calls for every device to have network connectivity. That’s right, your hi-def DVD player is going to be connected to the network and will have the ability to call home and receive updates. What kind of updates? Key revocation notices, of course. If a device key gets cracked and posted to the internet, then the DVD makers can encrypt all new discs so that they cannot work with that key. Now is where the tree comes into play. Since every key is a sub-key of the node to which it is attached, entire groups of keys can be disabled by disabling a key higher in the tree than where your key is located.

[BJ_M]

a good explanation on how it works is here:

http://www.drmblog.com/index.php?/archives/73_DRM_in_Hi-Def.html

[-jsl-]

please read the specs carefully-- i will quote just from a part:

Specs? It looks like a somewhat inaccurate article to me...

No permanent Internet connectivity will be needed just to play a disc. Period.
Players can get revoked but it will be in the form of "black listing" on discs.

[ROF]

i think the fact having to have the player on-line will kill this format very quickly ... at least in north america

Nah! Quite a few games are going to this format, even for singleplayer games. It's being widely accepted and supported by north american gamers and in europe, however other places are complaining about these types of copy protection systems where the game has to call home first.

Personally, I don't mind this at all. Hopefully, they will also start keeping track of who is watching what and when and then start producing better movies based on the types of movies their viewership watches.

[BJ_M]

yes - but you play on a pc and expect to be connected to the internet ..

[ROF]

Not for a singleplayer game though. Everything is going to be networked eventually. This is something people will have to get used to. The good thing about this is that you won't have to update your DVD Player to display the latest format. You'll put a disc in, the player will realize it can't properly display this format, and the player will download the proper codec to display it.

There are limitless options and potential once you have device in constant contact with it's manufacturer. I hope they introduce this into most other tech machinery as well. After the livingroom, the kitchen should be the next place to be constantly monitored for it's inventory and cooking status. Live the future, or be left in the past I think the statement is.

[Cornucopia]

I think the formats (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) will succeed anyway, but they will never have the kind of household penetration of DVD, etc. if they REQUIRE internet connection or have a tendancy to implement the self-destructive capability.
There are WAY too many customers they would be missing out on, those who disagree on principle, those who are technologically underpriveledged, those that are wary of governmental interference or other connectivity issues...
Maybe they didn't really learn any lessons from the original DIVX fiasco.

Scott

[dimebolt]

I fix people computers at home calls. A lot, Id say a good 60% (yes the majority) of them either have No Network structre, Dial Up, Or No internet period.

Now what if these same people want a new hd/br player in a couple of rooms, itll be totally fucked.

My aunt and uncle are super rich and have the best of everything, but they have a strictly wired internet, And Its in the basement, I dont see them drilling holes in their massive house to watch a movie in there bedroom.

The idea is so pathetic.

There are so many negitives to this.

Man when my internet goes down for a whatever reason for however long becore calling and bitching I generally sit down and watch a movie (cable internet tv + net goes usually)

So then ill have no dvd.

On the subject of them forcing us to convert, I doubt it, You still see vhs's of major movies along side dvd's, and vhs's were coming out with almost everything not even 6months ago? It seems like just now they are starting to get a little more rare.

I can totally see going into walmart or target

X movie on VHS DVD HD-DVD and BLU-Ray. + PSP Portable! Ha.

[ROF]

I thought Target stopped selling VHS almost a year ago ?

[somebodeez]

We went to Best Buy yesterday and I looked at their HDTVs.
Every single one of them looked like they were playing bad, low quality divx 3 rips Some were even worse because they had vertical lines on the whole screen while others looked like watching TV through a window screen.

Nope - still not impressed.