Blue ray anti copying agreed.

[NICEBUD]

I dont no if anyone has mentioned this yet? But take a peek at this.




http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=2...24&newsLang=en

[banger298]

if there a way there a will

[somebodeez]

The BDA also adopted "BD+", a Blu-ray Disc specific programmable renewability enhancement that gives content providers an additional means to respond to organized attacks on the security system by allowing dynamic updates of compromised code. With these enhancements, content providers have a number of methods to choose from to combat hacks on Blu-ray players. Moreover, BD+ affects only players that have been attacked, as opposed to those that are vulnerable but haven't been attacked and therefore continue to operate properly.

What does that mean?

[Pisidan]

If you can watch it it can be copied!!

[ROF]

If you can watch it it can be copied!!

Really?? Have you heard of this new fangled content protection called macrovision?? I hear it's the latest trend in allowing perfect viewing while slowing down the dubbing of what your watching. I don't think what you said is accurate or true.

[Laddydaddy]

ROF wrote;

Have you heard of this new fangled content protection called macrovision??

.

WOW! When did they come up with that scheme? They must have slipped it in under the radar when the rest of us weren't looking!

[BJ_M]

If you can watch it it can be copied!!

not true anymore -- no one can 'copy' HDCP or DTCP even though you can watch it ..

[DVWannaB]

If you can watch it it can be copied!!

Really?? Have you heard of this new fangled content protection called macrovision??

Hmmmmmmmmmm.........me memory tells me Macrovision has been around for 20 years or so.

[vitualis]

Ultimately, the idea that "if you an watch it you can copy it" is true... There is only so much you can do to mangle an analogue signal and not have visual degradation.

Edit: though BJ_M is right... If you have an encrypted signal path, you may not be able to copy it though that means that you must have a display that "plays ball" with the encryption. If it can play on an ordinary TV, you will be able to copy it.

Regards.

[BJ_M]

"dynamic updates" is the part of this that is scary .....


of course if no one buys these things because they have to be online or could be wacked out of action at any time or can not play your own backups in them of your very expensive blu-ray disks or work with your older HD TV's .... i guess it will not mater anyway ...

[BJ_M]

and yes -- the whole signal path is encrypted ... all parts of the signal chain must play ball and at no time does the signal get converted to analog ..


though someone COULD modify a TV to output SDI and/or analog HD and could have a bluefish or BlackMagic HD capture card ....

and i suppose burn a blu-ray disk ....

[-jsl-]

What does that mean?

AFAIK "BD+" is based on Cryptography Research's Self-Protecting Digital Content (SPDC). If you want more info I recommend reading this PDF.

[honorarybrutha]

"dynamic updates" is the part of this that is scary .....


of course if no one buys these things because they have to be online or could be wacked out of action at any time or can not play your own backups in them of your very expensive blu-ray disks or work with your older HD TV's .... i guess it will not mater anyway ...

let the boycot begin!

[Pisidan]

One way or another the siganl comes out to be watched there is always someone out there who circumvents past those protections...If there is a machine that can play it it can be copied even if that machine is reversed engineered to see how! Someone will always be able to duplicate it They are fighting a no win battle! Nothing is Full proof

[hrlslcbr]

If you can watch it it can be copied!!

not true anymore -- no one can 'copy' HDCP or DTCP even though you can watch it ..

There are some boxes that take an HDCP encrypted DVI signal and output an unprotected DVI signal without degradation of quality.

[mbellot]

and yes -- the whole signal path is encrypted ... all parts of the signal chain must play ball and at no time does the signal get converted to analog ..

Except when its finally displayed in its analog light patterns for viewng by human beings.

A simple DV camcorder in front of the TV makes the entire encryption stream pointless.

Losslees? No. But neither is it encrypted anymore.

[dvdguy4]

I wont buy either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Im very happy with the normal DVD format and I really dont want to shell out all that money to buy the new player and the movies. I understand the picture and sound will blow you away but for the normal folk it just seems like a waste of money.
I really dont think its gonna fly all that great anyway. Its the Betamax vs the VHS all over again. So the old saying "If its not broken why fix it"
Some will agree with me and some wont. I still know people who are still using VHS and dont even own a dvd player. Anyway rock on everyone

[BJ_M]

and yes -- the whole signal path is encrypted ... all parts of the signal chain must play ball and at no time does the signal get converted to analog ..

Except when its finally displayed in its analog light patterns for viewng by human beings.

A simple DV camcorder in front of the TV makes the entire encryption stream pointless.

Losslees? No. But neither is it encrypted anymore.

ok - - you can 'back up' your HD-DVDs that way ... :P

[painkiller]

What concerns me more, is if and when such players/recorders come out for BLu-Ray (or other) - - - that they won't even have a selection/choice for other connections such as component video or DVI.

Granted, these would offer the video at lower resolution levels - but current DVD specs only offer a max of 720P - don't they?

As a consumer, I don't think I would mind if what I record and playback is anywhere between DVD specs and HDTV specs. Nothing lower than DVD.

But if the manufacturers, and congress, force removal of choice of connections for the new technology - then those manufacturing companies shareholders are going to be mighty dissappointed when they don't grow their investments.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[bazooka]

It would not surpise me if this were broken really quick. The sooner that the industry quits spending ridiculous amounts of money on things that a 2 year old could crack, the better.

[hudsonf]

"dynamic updates" is the part of this that is scary .....


of course if no one buys these things because they have to be online or could be wacked out of action at any time or can not play your own backups in them of your very expensive blu-ray disks or work with your older HD TV's .... i guess it will not mater anyway ...

let the boycot begin!

I'm completely happy with What I have now. I'm not going to HD TV until I have to so I can live without Blu-Ray DVDs. I for one will not go through all that trouble just to watch a movie.

[painkiller]

Eventually, none of us may have a choice when it comes to HDTV.

In some fashion, here in the USA at least, the population will be forced to upgrade their televsions (new/replacement or set top box) in order to watch television - no matter the resolution being sent/received.

What most seem to forget, in my humble opinion, is that all current Standard Definition televisions do not and will not have the ability to receive hdtv frequencies by themselves. And who wants to watch hdtv broadcasts downconverted to SD resolutions??\

According to our "illustrious" FCC/government decision(s), it's progress.
And it won't be a question of if - but when.

[lumis]

hmm..

so i'm guessing this dynamic update thing will basically update the protections on your BD-player when the old one is cracked/hacked..

so for example if the bd-protection system is broken, future movies will have a firmware update on them to update the bd-player protection?

kind of like what they're doing with xbox and dashboard updates? and psp with firmware updates that wont allow you to play a new title unless you update your firmware?

that is kind of scary.. with all the freedom that we have with dvd, i really dont like being so restriced with BD..

i guess all we can hope for is that BD becomes what laser disc did.. a niche format that is never widely adopted.. and dvd can sink in to the comfort that vhs provided us..

[spectroelectro]

Painkiller asked: "who wants to watch hdtv broadcasts downconverted to SD resolutions??"

I do. Standard analog TV looks just fine to me. I have zero interest in HD. The reason I have zero interest in Hi-Def is simple and obvious: 99.9999999% of all the great movies and TV shows ever made aren't in Hi-Def. They were made in standard analog 720 x 480 interlaced NTSC (or PAL, or SECAM, or whatever) format, or in 35mm or 70mm film format. What's the point of going to Hi Def? So I can watch Hollywood's latest crappy piece-of-&%#@ blockbuster movie in extra clarity, the better to delectate in the lack of plot and the rotten acting and the infantile storyline and the trivial contemptible cardboard characters? Or maybe I should go to Hi Def and invest in a Faroudja line doubler so I can watch those Gilligan's Island reruns in super ultra-pristine clarity! Yeah, then I could even see the coffee stains on Bob Denver's T-shirt! Ooohh! That's makes my little heart go pit-a-pat just thinking about it!

Get real. Who cares? Just as paleontologists say that to a good first approximation all species are extinct, in the video arena to a good first approximation all the good stuff is in lo-def formats, not Hi Def. HD is a scam. It's worthless. I have no interest in it. I will happily use a converter box to continue watching standard definition analog TV if and when all cable TV turns into digital HD, and I'll do it until the cows come home. If my stupid cable company discontinues such an HD-to-analog-SD converter box, I will discontinue my cable company and stop watching TV. Simple. Easy. And a lot of folks I know feel the same way.

The internet's a lot more interesting than network TV anyway, so no loss.

[soloredd]

I wont buy either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Im very happy with the normal DVD format and I really dont want to shell out all that money to buy the new player and the movies. I understand the picture and sound will blow you away but for the normal folk it just seems like a waste of money.
I really dont think its gonna fly all that great anyway. Its the Betamax vs the VHS all over again. So the old saying "If its not broken why fix it"
Some will agree with me and some wont. I still know people who are still using VHS and dont even own a dvd player. Anyway rock on everyone

I agree. Watching DVDs on my HDTV is beyond adequate for me...I consider it a luxury not a necessity. The way these Blu-Ray, HDTV, HD-DVD people are making it seem is that it is necessary for the consumer to buy this stuff to have an enjoyable experience.

BS.

I've enjoyed movies since I could remember and not once did I ever stop to think "Hey, maybe this movie will be better if the quality were improved!"

[ROF]

It would not surpise me if this were broken really quick. The sooner that the industry quits spending ridiculous amounts of money on things that a 2 year old could crack, the better.

Nah. Let'em keep wasting money, it's their money they are throwing away to protect something that is unprotectable. If it were taxpayers money, or some other public funding I may agree they should stop, but these people have a right to waste money frivilously protecting their investment.

[raffie]

I'm certain it'll be cracked anyway. But IMO it won't be as easy to copy a disk as we've gotten used to (aka shrink). A 12-year old can copy DVD's now. So it'll require a little more expertise to copy a disk, I have no problem with that. Maybe its even better that disks wont get copied in mass like today, get's the heat off the casual video-enthousiast / back-upper.

So I say hooray for a better (though not perfect) copy protection

[RottenFoxBreath]

for me,in the uk with digital tv,on my 50"rptv,component dvd viewing is fine,as is watching programmes like csi,house,and other us hd-able viewing with an rgb scart.
consoles too,are fine.
i do know someone who owns a sagem(i think) hdrptv,and the picture quality is nice,but makes programmes that arent hd look shittier,so it can blow my balls until my warranty for my tv is up(circa 2009).
my point is that whereas a programme in the states,looks worse than PAL,HD isnt necessary for quality viewing here in the uk.pal picture is better overall than ntsc,so i think that itll take more than 5 years to get into the mainstream here,that and the prices that sky are touting just now for hd is stupid.
couple that with lcd and plasma tvs still selling like hotcakes,with there prices dropping,and hdtvs new on the market,with sky high prices,and there non compliance(some are marketed as "hdtv ready,or compatible" will lead to confusion,and already has as there are only a few on the market that are REAL hdtvs,and there really expensive.

[Edmund Blackadder]

It's a no-brainer to me that I will not be buying HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players and discs if such outrageous protections indeed will take place. However, my biggest fear is that the industry might decide to forcefully phase out standard definition DVD's as soon as possible (at least in North America) so you have no other choice, but to buy HD-DVD or BD equipment and software if you want to continue to watch movies. I really hope that's not going to happen any time soon.

I do have a Sony 1080i Hi-Def videocamera (HVR-Z1U) and would love to have a recordable HD-DVD/BD for authoring and distributing in 1080i, but as it stands now I guess I'll be downconverting to a standard DVD for a long time to come. I'd also say, boycott both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray until they come to their senses and remove such outrageous copyprotection (and HDMI viewing-protection) schemes. I mentioned this before, but look at what happened to SACD and DVD-Audio - they are niche formats. Why? I don't even think it's because there are two of them (after all, for example, PS2 and Xbox do co-exist successfully), but because nobody can make a backup of them through reasonable means (yes there are some workarounds, but it's a pain in the ass). I hope the same crappy fate hits HD-DVD and BD, if they don't change their minds about copyprotection.

And another thing. The recordable HD-DVD and BD sales will also be almost at a zero level, because whether the industry likes it or not, but probably about 90% of people who buy blank media use it for "backup" purposes. So if blue laser formats are overprotected, then the manufacturers will not make any money on the blue laser recordable products. They are just shooting themselves in the feet. Freedom of fair use is very important for a format's survival. People don't like things that can't be copied. And so these new formats will be doomed, unless they are forced up our throats and standard DVD's are no longer sold.

[somebodeez]

What does that mean?

AFAIK "BD+" is based on Cryptography Research's Self-Protecting Digital Content (SPDC). If you want more info I recommend reading this PDF.

Thanks for the links