Recommend me a TV to monitor restoration work

[BJ_M]

there is some crap advice on that site -- like making a HD-15 to 3 wire component cable out of radio shack parts and cat5 cable ...

[edDV]

in the studio doing color correction -- i would be about 6" -12" , 3 feet at the most from a 20" monitor ...

7.5 feet , the figure they give would be for home viewing .. not studio use

Well true. That is why my 27" HDTV monitor is on wheels. I can move it to ideal NTSC or HDTV viewing distances or closer if needed.

Usually it sits about 4.5 feet out for general viewing from my desktop.

I also have a 14" next to it for watching news, monitoring captures, cueing VCR's or verifying DVDR burns.

[payton34]

Hello edDV and BJ,

This might be switching gears a bit but anyway, I have a knack for asking good simple questions to complex problems.

edDV you mentioned you had a Canopus avdv converter. My question pertains to the proper ire black levels to be set all the way trough the proccess of converting analog Vhs to MPEG2 output for DVD.

Going through some of the other post, as I understand it DVD players output through their S-video a 7.5 IRE so that an analog device like a TV can display the proper blacks. If this is true would the following "IRE black level" work flow be correct.

JVC 9911U playing back a SVHS home video going to a sign video proc amp. with the ire level set to 7.5. From there it would go to a Canopus 110avdv converter. This converter's ire would also be set to 7.5.

At this point I am going to encode my newly captured DV25 7.5 IRE video to MPEG2 for DVD output.

Where in the process to I change the ire if in fact at all to 0 IRE?

If I leave it at 7.5 will not the DVD player wash out my blacks by essentialy re-setting my IRE levels to 15?

If this is also true how to you resolve when that same DVD will be played on a DVD player that has componet video out? As I understand componet video out, outputs at 0 IRE.

Am I missing something or how in the heck do you know which IRE level to encode with if the DVD might be playing on different DVD players with S-video and componet video out?

Head is officially spinning now.

Thanks

[edDV]

...
Going through some of the other post, as I understand it DVD players output through their S-video a 7.5 IRE so that an analog device like a TV can display the proper blacks. If this is true would the following "IRE black level" work flow be correct.

JVC 9911U playing back a SVHS home video going to a sign video proc amp. with the ire level set to 7.5. From there it would go to a Canopus 110avdv converter. This converter's ire would also be set to 7.5.

At this point I am going to encode my newly captured DV25 7.5 IRE video to MPEG2 for DVD output.

Where in the process to I change the ire if in fact at all to 0 IRE?

When Sw2 is set to 7.5 IRE then 7.5 IRE maps to digital level 16 (black). This is correct for an NTSC source.
When Sw2 is set to 0.0 IRE then 0.0 IRE maps to digital level 16 and 7.5 IRE maps to level 32 (gray).

DV format and DVD MPeg2 specify black at level 16 and white at level 235. If you maintain these levels, your DVD will match a commercial DVD and play at the same levels.

...
... how to you resolve when that same DVD will be played on a DVD player that has componet video out? As I understand componet video out, outputs at 0 IRE.

Not on my Pioneer DV363. Presented with level 16 digial black, it outputs 7.5 IRE on NTSC composite, S-Video and Y for analog component.

I've seen Chinese players that output level 16 black at 0 IRE in NTSC mode (Japanese NTSC) so your mileage may vary.

Am I missing something or how in the heck do you know which IRE level to encode with if the DVD might be playing on different DVD players with S-video and componet video out?

Head is officially spinning now.

Thanks

You should make your DVD to standard 16-235 levels and it will play the same as a commercial DVD.

[payton34]

Hey all,

thanks edDV for your detailed response. I have a much better understanding.

Going back to the Pro monitor verses TV subject. I have decided to go the pro monitor route. Just when thought I had made my final decision I am now in a quandry about LCD verses CRT.

In the CRT line I am loooking at the PVM L5, here is the link...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=262238&...goryNavigation

In the LCD line I am looking at the LMD 1420, here is the link..
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=363946&...goryNavigation

The little info from Sony I was able to get was that the future of TV was LCD and that is why all there new monitors will be built with LCD technology. I guess if the future is LCD one might argue that why not calibrate and restrore on a LCD monitor. According to Sony the LMD1420 does not provide an interlace to progressive conversion as this would add to the cost. It instead uses special VGA LCD's that can reproduce interlace video extremely accuratley and cost effectively. They also have a model LMD152 that does actual I/P conversions, but it is around $2000.00. The LMD 1420 sells for around $1000.00. It has blue gun as well. From what I understand they last quite a bit longer than CRT's as well.

Is there any reason at all I should not consider going LCD over CRT?


Thanks

[BJ_M]

i wouldnt say they last longer because the bulbs do wear out and change color ...

issue with lcd (even those) is banding and slower response time .. the response time is not to bad for straight video - but the banding can drive you crazy, so can trying to use these for serious color work ,

plus's are - a basically pro HD monitor at non HD prices with a lot of features .. easy on the eyes and space and wallet .... great for a lot of editing work ...
LCD are used in many studios for a lot of basic editing.

as for those sonys - the lcd guts of that monitor are a bit outdated..

do i think they are a good choice ?
yes - if you realize their limitations and shortcomings ..

[edDV]

Is there any reason at all I should not consider going LCD over CRT?

Thanks

I'll stick up for CRT but it depends on your sources and goals.

1. My main preference for CRT is that it works for interlace and progressive. My prime editing format is DV which is 480i. Second comes analog NTSC which is all interlace. Third is capping 1080i/720p off cable and OTA broadcast. For these reasons a HD Ready monitor works for me.

A LCD must deinterlace all sources for progressive display. If you see something wierd, you don't know if it is a deinterlace problem or a problem with your video.

2. CRT displays in variable raster sizes. Mine can display 480i, 1080i or 480p directly as well as upscale 480i to 1080i or 480p, although the 480i to 480p deinterlace is rather poor.

3. I can drive it with Powerstrip software for custom rates like 540p (half the lines of 1080i) for a poor mans deinterlace. This is handy for computer desktop or 1080i playback from the computer (using VGA connection).

4. CRT is cheaper.

Downside is bulk and weight. Also CRT needs periodic "factory" servicing to hold tolerance. LCD may age better.

[payton34]

Hi edDV and everyone,

edDV wrote:
When Sw2 is set to 7.5 IRE then 7.5 IRE maps to digital level 16 (black). This is correct for an NTSC source.

In other words as an example, just to clarify in my own mind.

I start with a VHS source from a VCR. From there I go to my proc amp where I set my IRE levels to 7.5. From there the video signal is sent with black level at 7.5 IRE to the Canopus avdv 110 converter.

At this point, is the purpose of configuring the dip switches on the avdv110 to let it know what the source IRE level is at (7.5 in this case) so that it can properly map the blacks to digital level 16?

Also, will the analog S-video out on the avdv110 pass the video signal from my proc amp unchanged, meaning the same IRE level of 7.5 to my calibrated video monitor so that I am seeing the blacks displayed properly for correction?


Thanks,

[edDV]

Hi edDV and everyone,

edDV wrote:
When Sw2 is set to 7.5 IRE then 7.5 IRE maps to digital level 16 (black). This is correct for an NTSC source.

In other words as an example, just to clarify in my own mind.

I start with a VHS source from a VCR. From there I go to my proc amp where I set my IRE levels to 7.5. From there the video signal is sent with black level at 7.5 IRE to the Canopus avdv 110 converter.

At this point, is the purpose of configuring the dip switches on the avdv110 to let it know what the source IRE level is at (7.5 in this case) so that it can properly map the blacks to digital level 16?

Yes.

For those with a proc amp, they could use their proc amp to lower black from 7.5 IRE to zero IRE and use a "pass thru" DV camcorder with identical results.

Also, will the analog S-video out on the avdv110 pass the video signal from my proc amp unchanged, meaning the same IRE level of 7.5 to my calibrated video monitor so that I am seeing the blacks displayed properly for correction?

Yes it will.

For the ADVC, 7.5-100 IRE in gets mapped to 16-235 and 16-235 out gets mapped to analog 7.5-100 IRE when the switch is in 7.5 IRE position. Also an encoded DVD will have 16-235 levels and will play at analog 7.5-100 IRE if the DVD player adds setup. A Chinese player that doesn't add setup will play back at analog 0-92.5 IRE

When the switch is in 0.0 IRE position, the ADVC behaves just like a DV camcorder, that is 7.5-100 IRE in gets mapped to 32-255 and 32-255 out gets mapped to analog 7.5-100 IRE on the monitor, but encodes 15-108+ IRE (possibly with white clipping) if encoded to a DVD and played back on a DVD player that adds setup (aka washout). A Chinese player that doesn't add setup will play back at analog 7.5-100 IRE.

I think I got all that right. Whew!

[payton34]

Hi again edDV,

Thanks for hanging in there with me. At this point I definitely know enough to push the right buttons to get the correct results. However, I am still trying to get a deeper understanding so if I run into any unusual circumstances I will be able to properly diagnose and fix them. Hope my persistance, lack of understanding and your generous help is helping others as well as myself that might be reading this thread.

edDV wrote:
"For the ADVC, 7.5-100 IRE in gets mapped to 16-235 and 16-235 out gets mapped to analog 7.5-100 IRE when the switch is in 7.5 IRE position. Also an encoded DVD will have 16-235 levels and will play at analog 7.5-100 IRE if the DVD player adds setup."

Are you saying with the switch in the 7.5 position?

Analog video with 7.5 IRE enters the advc110, gets converted and leaves the advc110 as a DV25 format with it's levels set to 16-235, while still maintaining or defining digital level 16 to the analog equivilent of 7.5 IRE black.

At this point you encode this DV25 video to MPEG2 for DVD output.

Does the encoder maintian the digital 16-235 levels, but actually change the analog equivilent from 7.5 IRE black to 0 IRE - 92.5 IRE?

Do encoders change IRE levels for the purpose that stand alone DVD players simply do not act as a pass thru- for IRE levels, but actually add set up or boost IRE levels up the scale by 7.5 IRE?

If certain encoders can have their settings changed with regard to the type of analog IRE levels they pass on, could you not configure the advc110 to simply output and difine digital level 16 as 0 IRE and leave the encoder out of the equation in terms of changing the equivlent analog black levels?

Would this method offer a better quality converion as the IRE would be altered using the full analog signal coming into the advc110, rather than being altered on a more compressed DV25 format?

I am hoping you say what I have just stated is correct. so I can offically declare myself graduated from the college of IRE!!


Thanks

[edDV]

Hi again edDV,

edDV wrote:
"For the ADVC, 7.5-100 IRE in gets mapped to 16-235 and 16-235 out gets mapped to analog 7.5-100 IRE when the switch is in 7.5 IRE position. Also an encoded DVD will have 16-235 levels and will play at analog 7.5-100 IRE if the DVD player adds setup."

Are you saying with the switch in the 7.5 position?

Yes all of the above is with sw2 in the 7.5 IRE position.

Analog video with 7.5 IRE enters the advc110, gets converted and leaves the advc110 as a DV25 format with it's levels set to 16-235, while still maintaining or defining digital level 16 to the analog equivilent of 7.5 IRE black.

At this point you encode this DV25 video to MPEG2 for DVD output.

Does the encoder maintian the digital 16-235 levels, but actually change the analog equivilent from 7.5 IRE black to 0 IRE - 92.5 IRE?

The encoder just encodes the 16-235 levels to the DVD creating a standard DVD (like a commercial DVD). The player sets the analog levels. A NTSC DVD player is supposed to play level 16 at 7.5 IRE analog. Good ones do. Some don't.

Do encoders change IRE levels for the purpose that stand alone DVD players simply do not act as a pass thru- for IRE levels, but actually add set up or boost IRE levels up the scale by 7.5 IRE?

NTSC players are supposed to add 7.5 IRE setup to match other NTSC sources. Otherwise you would have to adjust TV brightness to play a DVD.

If certain encoders can have their settings changed with regard to the type of analog IRE levels they pass on, could you not configure the advc110 to simply output and difine digital level 16 as 0 IRE and leave the encoder out of the equation in terms of changing the equivlent analog black levels?

Would this method offer a better quality converion as the IRE would be altered using the full analog signal coming into the advc110, rather than being altered on a more compressed DV25 format?

I am hoping you say what I have just stated is correct. so I can offically declare myself graduated from the college of IRE!!

See what is happening when you depart from standard?

Do you what to create a DVD that behaves exactly like a 16-235 commercial DVD, or you want to play with encoder settings to make a nonstandard DVD that plays with different levels on different players and requires TV adjustment every time you play it?

The idea is to create a DVD with standard levels.