who can tell me about the pv231-233 hardware capture card?

[twocuties]

hi all,

is there anybody who can give me their thoughts about the pv231 capture card? is it any good?
i DON'T want to go trought the whole hours and hours of converting deal.
I already have a dazzle dvc usb and I'm incredibly happy with it's results, i capture at about 2000 kb/s and my dvd plays my xvcd's fine.
but I would like to know how the quality of the pv231 is, compared to for instance the dazzle.
are there av/sync problems? will my results with this card be better or worse then with the dazzle? (i'm intended to capture at a higher rate with the card if possible, my pc doesn't seem to allow me to capture at a higher bitrate then 2000 kb with the dazzle)
and last but not least, where can i buy this card?
i'm from belgium, europe so i need a place where they ship internationally if possible, or at least a place where they sell it in the states. And, if i would buy it in the states, can i still capture PAL with it?
THANKS 2 ALL !!!

[Anonymous65]

http://steve.kittelsen.com/pv231

[Anonymous65]

With the PV231 there is no need to capture at a hight bit rate and then down convert like you do with Dazzle. I have used the Dazzle also, and I did the same thing to make good quality VCD's. With the PV23x, you can capture directly in VCD mode and the quality is basically the same as AVI capture and Tmpeg software compression to VCD. I have not seen any other card that can outperform the PV23x card in VCD real-time captures, and I have tried or seen VCD clips from most every card that is available...

[geniv]

acutally the PV256 have better direct VCD capture when there's fair amount of motion in the video. but the PV231/233 have better catpure when it's low motion. (but only slightly better than the pV256.

I would perfer the PV256 over the Pv231/233.

[twocuties]

well, i'm not going to downconvert my files, because that results again in hours of converting, the way i'm doing it now with my dazzle is i capture at 2000, cut it with tmpgenc and burn it with nero, it reads fine in my standalone dvd player and the quality is much better then when i use the vcd template from dazzle.
so that's pretty much what i want to do with the pv231, i want to capture between 2100 and 2400, cut with tmpgenc and burn with nero so i would even get a better result then my dazzle captures. is this possible or not?
can i decide exactly at what rate i want to capture?
for example : 2100 or 2250 or 2350 or so. still possible?
thx!!

[geniv]

actually at closer examination (for the past 3 days) of the PV233/231 direct vcd capture VS TmpEnc.

btw: I'm running my pv233 with all the reg patches applied the one from skittelsen's site and the "scene change" set to 0 for motion.
The TMPENC vcd sample is from a highbitrate video capture (4 meg) on the PV233 then downedsampled to VCD format with TMPENC

here's a link to a review I did for the PV233
http://www.geniv.com/MPEG.HTM#PV233

here's what I notice.
- Still scenes is about the same and difference with EXTREMELY hard to spot.
- moderate to high motion scenes are definitely better quality using TMPENC. (I got an eye for detail and I got a 19" monitor but if u output it to TV or play the VCD on a DVD you probably don't notice the difference. but on a monitor u notice more artifact on the PV233 direct VCD capture.

moral of the story? if u plan to cap action movies use high bitrate capture then TMPENC it to VCD, if u plan to cap say TV shows with little motion use PV233 direct VCD capture. just a matter of quality VS. time

but in the end Tmpenc will always give u better quality.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: geniv on 2001-12-19 19:43:18 ]</font>

[dan1st]

geniv, you made a review of the Snazzi right?
Which Snazzi are you referring to?
Snazzi 1, Snazzi 3, Snazzi DVC, Snazzi DVC 2, Snazzi VCD Creator, etc?
I'm planning to get either the Snazzi 1
(http://snazzi.com/snazzisite/html/vcdmhq.html)
or the Snazzi DVC
(http://snazzi.com/snazzisite/html/dvc.html)
Any suggestions?

[geniv]

I can't really comment on the SNAZZI, the one I got was from a little over 2 years ago. I'm not sure the card that is listed on the current snazzi website use the same chipset.

but as far as I'm concern the snazzi I have have problems with color bleeding (during bright areas or high contrasting area.) and it looks pretty bad when it shows up in the encoded video. the bleeding usually shows up while encoding from a DVD source. over all the quality is not as good as the PV233.

I would recommend the PV233 it's a better value and better encoding quality. it handles the color alot better than the snazzi overall.

[Tony Yip]

Can the PV233 s/w pause during a capture and then resume
the capture to the same peg file?

Or as soon as it pauses, it has to record to a new mpeg
file?

[geniv]

nope, u can't pause, actually I NEVER saw a capture program that can do that. maybe the newer version of the snazzi software can do that, but if it's gonna make a new file when it resume from pause. isn't that the same as stop and record?

[Tony Yip]

Actually, the AVI_IO avi capture program has a pause feature in it
Very handy for not recording commercials when recording TV shows.


I guess with the PV233, I'll have to join the individual mpeg files after
cutting out the commercials.

[markm]

You can record at 2100/2200 bitrate with the 233 just fine. I do it all the time when recording from the tuner. I record hour long shows at 2200. Sans commercials, they fit perfectly on an 80min CD, and the extra bitrate helps compensate for the noise from the tuner.

Just so you're aware though. These "xvcd" captures tend to be a little troublesome to edit, at least for me with my player (Apex 1531). If I don't mux them as non-standard VCD with TMPGenc, the audio skips. If I try to edit them with anything other than IfilmEdit, the audio goes out of sync.

This only applies for the xvcd caps though. VCD mode I've been able to edit with anything and play no problems. I do everything in VCD mode unless it's from the tuner. The added noise of the tuner reduces the quality too much for my tastes. I also hate blank space on a disc, I figure I might as well use the extra room for more bitrate.

This is my *only* gripe with this card is the editing problem on these files. Beyond that I love it. While I might be able to get a little better quality with TMPGenc, the ability to schedule a recording, trim the ends off and burn it well offsets the marginal quality difference. It's just too easy to use. The other big bonus is you don't need a high end machine. I run it on a PII/266 laptop, and often with eDonkey running in the background.

[twocuties]

hey guys,
thanks for all the info, now i know i want one!!
The only thing i need to know now is where can i order them?
i'm from Belgium but i got some friends in the states who can order it for me and send it to me.
thx all!!!!

[Anonymous65]

Again, this place has the order info.
http://steve.kittelsen.com/pv231

[Tony Yip]

I was gonna use it to capture 1 hour shows off of the tuner
then cut the commericals out and then join the mpeg files
back into one mpeg file. I will using XVCD capture mode
at 2300 kb/sec as Markm is doing

Can IfilmEdit do this without re-encoding the mpeg file?

Or do I need to remux the mpeg files?

I thought Ifilmedit could cut and join without having to use
Tmpeg

[markm]

Ifilm will do this without re-encoding the file.

My experience is limited to my DVD player, an Apex 5131. I do exactly what you're looking to do. I record a 1 hour show from the tuner. I capture at 2200 bitrate, cut the commercials, and burn an XVCD.

Where TMPGenc comes into play...

If I don't re-mux the mpeg, Ifilm complains about an invalid start frame or something to that affect, and won't load the clip. So before editing, I re-mux using the Non-standard VCD setting in TMPGenc.

Load it into Ifilm and cut the commercials. Note that Ifilm is only a GOP accurate editor, not frame. You end up with a few frames around your cut. I've learned to live with it. I wish they'd show you the GOP boundries to you could choose more precisely where to cut, but oh well.

You might get by with just these 2 steps. For me, if I don't once again re-mux to non-standard VCD, my DVD player won't play it correctly. I *think* what happens is that it expects a standard VCD, and then has trouble keeping the audio in sync with the video. The audio will skip about every 2 seconds. If I re-mux as non-standard, it plays great.

I've tried using TMPGenc's cut/merge, MyFlix, MPEG2VCR (Womble) and I think a few others. The *only* one that will do the edits and not de-sync everything is Ifilm. This only applies to these higher bitrate captures though. Standard VCD I've had no trouble editing with any editor.

In my experience, the higher bitrate cap is needed from the tuner to compensate for the additional noise present. Once someone here posted how to re-mux with TMPGenc without demuxing to temp files then muxing, the whole process became MUCH easier. I feel like such an idiot for not figuring that one out eariler.

[Tony Yip]

Markm, thanks for the info. Got a few more questions.

In Tmpeg, is there any difference when you multiplex the PV233 mpeg files, if you use the "Simple Multiplex' or the 'multiplex' tab.

Also, do you multiplex only when you have merged all the individual cut(edited) mpeg files together or do you multiplex each individual cut(edited) mpeg, merge them together then re-mux them again

I would assume you would only re-mux only after you have merged all the mpeg files together.

Also, are there other programs that can mux better than tmpeg. I heard that bbmpeg can do muxing also without re-encoding.

[Tony Yip]

Follow-up question for Markm.

Say I've just captured an 1 hour XVCD Mpeg1 file(with commercials) with
using the PV233 card. What are the steps to cut the commercials, join, and
re-mux?

This is what I would do:

1) Mux the mpeg-1 file in Tmpeg (can I just mux an mpeg
file or do I need to de-mux the mpeg file into video
and audio files first?). Bbmpeg requires the video and
audio portions before it can mux to an mpeg file. We are
muxing because it's not a standard VCD mpeg (1150 kb/sec)

Save the mpeg file as a mpeg1 VideoCD (non-standard)

2) Use Ifilmedit to edit out the commercials. Choose
VideoCD under VideoCD mode under Preferences. Save the
mpeg file as a mpeg1. You're left with a couple of mpeg1
files.

3) Join the mpeg1 files using Ifilmedit.

4) Re-mux the single mpeg1 file using Tmpeg and you're
done. Burn with Nero

Are these steps correct?

[markm]

You're close. Unlike bbmpeg, you don't need to de-mux and then mux. This is what I used to do, until someone here pointed out that if you load an mpeg stream into the multiplex tool, it defaults to using the same stream for the audio and video, so you can "re-mux" without using temporary files, and it's much faster.

I've seen no difference between the simple and regular multiplex, but I use the regular one since it seems more advanced.

The steps I follow are:

1) Load TMPGenc, using the multiplex tool, load the captured mpeg, and save it as non-standard VCD.

2) use Ifilmedit and cut the commercials. You don't have to create a bunch of clips. Set a mark in and out, click the record icon in the record window. When it's done, click the jump to end icon in the record window to set the insert point at the end of the clip. Now set a new mark in and out in the play window, record that clip. Repeat until you get the full show sans commercials in the record window. Then click "make movie" to save the final mpeg. You won't be able to choose the VCD option, since it's not a VCD.

3) You may not need this step depending on your player. But this is where I have to use TMPGenc again to remux. Same as step 1.

I only go through this for clips where I need to cut from the middle. If I'm simply trimming the ends, any editor seems to work just fine for me. I've found the when cutting stuff from the middle, each cut would result in audio being a little bit more out of sync. For some reason, Ifilm doesn't do this.

Another tip I've found. If you use the scheduler to record from the tuner, setup a dummy schedule sometime before to tune to that channel. ie; if you're going to record from channel 38 at 9:00pm, sometime prior to that, set a schedule to record for 1 minute on channel 38. Like most tuners, there's a second of noise during tuning. It seems like they start the encoding process at the same time they change channels. This noise will skew the audio sync. In most cases it fixes itself in about 5 minutes, but you end up with 5 minutes of out of sync audio, sometimes. It depends on the severity of the noise. If the tuner is already on the right channel, there's no problem. If you're only going to be recording from one channel, like I usually do, this won't affect you much. I just manually tune to the channel in advance to avoid the problem now that I know it happens. Took me a few botched shows to figure it out.

[Tony Yip]

Is the A/V of the mpeg file in sync after the multiplex?

I read somewhere else that Tmpeg does not keep the A/V
in sync that well after a multiplex.

BTW, I'm using Tmpeg 2.01

[markm]

I've read about the various nasty things TMPGenc is supposed to do, but it works for me. The audio stays in sync just fine, at least as far as I can tell. I suppose it could be milliseconds off, but it looks right when I watch it.

[Tony Yip]

Follow up question for Markm.

My PV233 XVCD clip (2300 kb/sec) is already edited (commercials cut out) and ready to burn.

What do you use to burn your XVCD file?

What I've noticed is that my XVCD file, when played on my DVD player, shows that it is 33 minutes on the time counter
display of the DVD player.

Is this because it is a non-standard VCD file that the length of the clip is not shown correctly in the DVD player?

[glinckens]

I have the PV-231 and also capture tv-shows from my VCR's tuner. I capture at 2200 kbps video and 224 kbps audio.

Now here's my advice for Markm and the others:
When edititing in Cineplayer Editor (Ifilmedit) you don't have to remux the captured mpeg first!
Cineplayer editor will complain about invalid start or end frames, because the GOP length is set to 30 (using Skittelsen's registry settings). Standard VCD has 15 frames in a GOP. Now, what Cineplayer editor does: it looks in a distance of 15 frames 'around' your mark-in and mark-out points to look for an I-frame (which is the start of a GOP), because it can only cut at I-frames.
When you have a mpeg with a GOP length of 30, it can't find an I-frame, so you'll get the error message. To solve this, just change your mark-in or mark-out to a few frames forward or reverse and let the program 'look' again for the I-frames. It will now find them. (if not, change your mark points a little bit again).
Saves you a lot of time!

After editing with Cineplayr editor you do have to remux the resulting mpeg with Tmpgenc or whatever, to insert the VCD stream information into the file.

[Anonymous65]

Hey, thanks for that trick!
I was also sometimes getting the error message in Cineplayer Editor, and couldn't understand why.

[markm]

Tony,

I use VCDEasy for all my recordings. As far as the counter/timer on the player, that seems to be hit or miss. Different players seem to handle it differently. I was playing around with this on my Apex 1500 the other day. The time played and time remaining appeared to be somewhat accurate, yet if I used the GOTO to jump to the time shown, it turns out to be a different spot. Not something I really care about to be honest, so haven't looked into it.

glinckens, Nice tip, I'll have to try that again. I thought the problem I had was that Ifilm outright refused to load the clip, nevermind give me the invalid start error. Though I have gotten that before. The last time I got it I was unable to find a place it was happy with, so I trimmed a few frames from the start and end with TMPGenc and it was happy.

Edit: I just tried this with a show I grabbed last night. Didn't work for me. I tried moving the mark in frame-by-frame (well, however far the step forward/back buttons go) every frame for a minute around where I wanted to cut, no go. I think I'm using 1.4.

Now if they'd only show us the frames we were cutting on

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: markm on 2002-01-07 16:27:36 ]</font>