Field recording equipment - Is MD the way to go?

[Raga]

I'm looking for equipment for good quality field recordings in a very easily portable size. Sony's MZ-RH10 looks fair enough, some basic specs:

Recording times on a HiMD 1GB disc: PCM (lossless ~ 1400kbps) - 1h 34 min, Hi-Sp (~280kbps) 7h 55min, HiLp (~64kbps) 34h. Battery life (play) up to 33 hours with a single AA battery. Price from $230 upwards.

I hear HiMD recording eats more power. Any clues on how long a recording time could one expect?

Any other models you'd recommend, any suggestions or feedback?

[Silvas]

Check out the iRiver mp3 player/recorders. I use the 895 model (512 MB)for wedding gigs using a lapel mic and it can record over 8 hours at 44KHz 128kbps. Runs on 1 AA battery and the battery lasts a very long time. You can find them at Best Buy, I think I paid $149 for mine a couple months ago.

[Raga]

Ah, but 128kbps isn't anywhere near good enough for a quality... If we're talking about lossy, I'd say I need 320kbps and from 8 hours onwards before having to dump it to a hard drive to get more space. 8 hours in 320kbps or 40kB/s means a bit over a gigabyte of space.

Well, now that I look at it, they do seem to have a gig model there, too - which supports real time mp3 encoding from an external audio source upto 320kbps.

Actually all the players in the iFP series seem to support 320kbps and line-in.

Any experiences on the sound quality?

[Edmund Blackadder]

Any experiences on the sound quality?

If you want the best sound quality in a small portable recording device, then get Sony PCM-M1 DAT recorder. I know that DAT is being discontinued for the most part, but I still have not found a worthy replacement for the highest quality portable recording use. Even the A/D and D/A converters alone in PCM-M1 are worth the price.

And I still love the convenience and reliability (yes, reliability) of DAT tape. I've had MiniDisc horrors in the past, such as the complete recording gone because of some error during the TOC finalizing (not my user error mind you). Ever since then I used DAT for important events. Even if there is a bad spot on tape, it will only last a couple of seconds, so at least you'll have the rest of the audio OK.

Then to transfer to PC/MAC digitally you can get one of those M-Audio USB Transit little converters for $80. And you can transfer from DAT to computer and back many times digitally. Not so with HiMD, where you are allowed to have only one transfer from HiMD device to your computer. If it fails - too bad, you will not be permitted to have another chance! After that you can only transfer through Line Out jack.

Also, HiMD (and probably most MP3 recorders) does only 44100Hz sampling rate. With DAT you can have 32000, 44100 and 48000Hz. And 48000 is perfect for video work.

Quite honestly I'm in disbelief that Sony have abandoned DAT recorders business. Though they still make the tapes. Many places still sell new PCM-M1's, including B&H. They are also regularly auctioned on eBay.

[Raga]

Yes I've also given some thought to DAT, though admittedly not much. Do you have thoughts on 1) the cost of media, 2) transfer times to PC, 3) battery life while recording? How much do those cost?

Not so with HiMD, where you are allowed to have only one transfer from HiMD device to your computer. If it fails - too bad, you will not be permitted to have another chance! After that you can only transfer through Line Out jack.

Say, what the heck? Can someone confirm this?

[Dragonsf]

http://www.thomann.de/smb_suche.html?sn=17a451ee8167a683d04b78f8a8a2f0e6&FOLLOW=1&SUCH...&iwid=1&PAGE=2
Up to 9 Euro for 124 Min. Tape is transferred in real time.

[Raga]

Real time... ouch. I already have the DV footage to be transfered in real time. I so much would enjoy a quicker transfer...

[Dragonsf]

Then sequential media (tape) is out of question!

[Raga]

Do you folks have any recommendations regarding microphones? It should be compact - say, in the range of 12 x 3 cm tops, with some sort of easy little stand to help direct it.

[Edmund Blackadder]

3) battery life while recording?

With the new 2500mAh NiMH batteries (I prefer Made In Japan Energizer NiMH rechargeables), you can get at least 6 and a half hours in PCM-M1's recording mode on one charge. Alkaline batteries are not recommended for PCM-M1.

Another thing with DAT, you can get 2 to 3 hours of uninterrupted recording on one tape, while with many other formats you have to change every 60 to 90 minutes (if working in full stereo).

Not so with HiMD, where you are allowed to have only one transfer from HiMD device to your computer. If it fails - too bad, you will not be permitted to have another chance! After that you can only transfer through Line Out jack.

Say, what the heck? Can someone confirm this?

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=7436
(read the warning in bold letters in the middle of that page)

http://www.minidisco.com/digital-upload-note.html

Do you folks have any recommendations regarding microphones? It should be compact - say, in the range of 12 x 3 cm tops, with some sort of easy little stand to help direct it.

If you want something really small, but still high quality (and stereo), you might like these:
http://www.reactivesounds.com/dt1.php

And a nice little tripod to go with it (though it's currently sold out):
http://www.reactivesounds.com/mt1.php

Minidisco.com though still seems to have these:
http://store.yahoo.com/minidisco-store/micpod.html

I have some good microphones (like Shure SM81 and Audio-Technika AT3035) and preamps (like dbx 760x), which produce exceptional results with PCM-M1, but if you need something highly portable and there's no access to AC power, then those little Delta microphones are kick-arse. As long as you don't have too much sound pressure you'll get great results. The above linked website has some MWA/MP3 demos as well.

[edDV]

Since you are already carrying your camcorder consider a BeachTek and a good pro mic to DV 16bit/48KHz PCM.
http://www.beachtek.com/dxa2.html

Still 1x playback but cheap and good quality.

[Raga]

Thanks for the suggestions. edDV: A quick browse around turns up that the BeachTek device mgiht have a bit of a steep price? You mean to use only that and the camcorder? I'm afraid that isn't really an option, since I will often be shooting both video clips and recording entire audio sessions at the same time.

Edmund: Yes, that's indeed compact, though the little tripod would be a must to keep it off the machinery - unless I go the no-moving-parts mp3-rec route. And that would indeed be the ultimate in compactness and quality. Being discreet is also desirable, since I'm recording in a low-tech environment (rural India) and don't want to have everyone staring at my gear.

How does that mini-mic compare for example to something like this (about the upper limit of acceptable size), or this (the same idea with a handy extension cord)? I can read the specs, but they don't really tell me much. I can read the info page, but that's still one step away from real life experiences.

[Raga]

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=7436
(read the warning in bold letters in the middle of that page)

http://www.minidisco.com/digital-upload-note.html

Oh that's just too mean. What's the point? Someone needs to go and buy a set of brains at Walmart.

[vitualis]

I can't say for the newest HD Minidiscs, but I got fantastic quality recordings on my older Sharp MD player/recorder.

If you want to do recording, MD recorders are certainly worth considering as they tend to have very good quality electronics, superior battery life, and of course, removable media. MP3 players, on the other hand, tend not to be as well designed for the purposes of recording.

Regards.

[Edmund Blackadder]

How does that mini-mic compare for example to something like this (about the upper limit of acceptable size), or this (the same idea with a handy extension cord)? I can read the specs, but they don't really tell me much. I can read the info page, but that's still one step away from real life experiences.

The big difference, at least in specifications, is that these Sony microphones only have 100 - 15,000 Hz frequency response. I don't know what they sound like in real life or what is their actual frequency response, but with Delta microphones you have a full 20 - 20,000 Hz frequency response. I can confirm that if you'd like to see spectral scans or frequency analysis screenshots. Deltas indeed have 20 - 20,000+ Hz in real life.

If you want to do recording, MD recorders are certainly worth considering as they tend to have very good quality electronics, superior battery life, and of course, removable media. MP3 players, on the other hand, tend not to be as well designed for the purposes of recording.

I have a few years old Sony MZ-R90 MD and love it. It's very small and produces excellent recordings. However, on certain sources, such as sharp percussion sounds you can hear ATRAC artifacts, such as pre-echo and general slight smoothing of the recording. Also, all the current HiMD units are still designed and marketed to be consumer devices. On the other hand Sony PCM-M1 DAT recorder is a professional deck, with professional grade electronics. And it's almost as small as most MD/MP3/CF, etc, recorders out there.

In short, if you want the ultimate sound quality in a portable device without compression and with exceptional A/D D/A converters, DAT is currently the only way to go. There's just been no worthy replacement for it yet. Trust me, if you get PCM-M1, you will love it and will not regret purchasing it (unless of course it's broken , but their design has proved to be very reliable over the years).

MD, like CD-R/RW is still sensitive to a shock during recording, with possible disastrous laser mistracking incidents. Even recording buffer won't help you with that, if a relatively strong shock happens during the laser writing to the disc. With DAT, you won't have that problem, unless perhaps if you drop it to the floor - then of course you might hear some short error.

Why do I still like such an obsolete format as DAT? First because of professional quality audio, and second because it's tape. Think about it, even though there are DVD camcorders out there, the most serious users still use videotape to record. Disc formats are great for final product and archiving, but for in field use, I think the tape is still the best, the most reliable, convenient and user-error-proof media. Hard drives are too fragile for that. Solid state memory will probably be the next big thing, but it's way too easy to accidentally erase or destroy files on flash cards.

And the last, I still have DAT tapes from the year 1997 that play flawlessly in their entirety. I haven't encountered a single one that has gone bad because of old age (DDS computer grade tapes are the best for reliability). So those DAT's have outlasted some of the CD-R's (Prodisc) and hard drives (Maxtor, Western Digital) that has gone bad on me. So I'd say, venerable DAT is reliable enough compared to many other preferred choices of the current day. So we now have all these countless tape formats for digital video, but none left for digital audio (only leftovers). That's just a terrible shame!

[DereX888]

I dont understand this discussion at all

If you need QUALITY - get the damn sony's M1 DAT recorder, add some Shure or other good one with broad specrum range, and youre set. 48kHz PCM is the only way to get real quality.

If you DONT need quality - go for any MD or MP3 recorders with their crappy ATRAC/MP3 compressions. After all 320kbps MP3 is still not that bad of quality (although personally I'd prefer PCM).

All devices are pretty reliable andhave long-lasting recording times, at least long enough to record any standard venue like concert, wedding etc (unless youre into recording some 12-hrs long operas )

what is still the problem to make your choice?

[Raga]

Well, what I'm looking at is with what kinds of sources does the issue of quality with a capital Q kick in. I don't need ultimate quality, really - or rather let's say, I'm wondering if the difference between quality and Quality only really shows in the finest of set-ups.

The problem of the choice: Well, I am looking at whether a miniscule trade-off in quality is justifiable in favor of lower costs both with the device (about 4x the price) and the media, in having transfer times well above 1:1 you'd get with DAT, and in having increased recording times (10-20h with 1xAA vs. 4-6h with 4xAA).

As for MDs, indeed that'd be my first choice, had I not learned about the absolutely dumb and ludicrous DRM "features". Also, the TOC failure leading to lost data Edmund mentioned is something I've experienced with my old MD.

(And for those wondering why I'm not just using that old MD - I patched it together from two broken units and it's still a bit cranky, and I can't stand having to transfer all in real time over a cable, and often in situations where all kinds of disturbances easily kick in and cause cracks or noise on the final on my PC.)

[Raga]

The big difference, at least in specifications, is that these Sony microphones only have 100 - 15,000 Hz frequency response. I don't know what they sound like in real life or what is their actual frequency response, but with Delta microphones you have a full 20 - 20,000 Hz frequency response. I can confirm that if you'd like to see spectral scans or frequency analysis screenshots. Deltas indeed have 20 - 20,000+ Hz in real life.

So those tiny weeny Deltas outperform the Sonys in the upper range. Interesting!

I wonder if these (that neat mini mic stand, as well) are sold anywhere in Europe. I wouldn't much care to pay the extra 22% VAT they charge us in Finland for anything imported from outside the EU.

[edDV]

What are you trying to record? Voices, Music?
Who needs to listen to it?
Your most difficult problem is probably a microphone system.

[Raga]

Music basically - along the lines you find here. Live folk performances in rural India with often no sound systems at all, or otherwise something one wishes would rather not be there. So it's definitely not a hi-fi environment we're looking at.

[Edmund Blackadder]

The problem of the choice: Well, I am looking at whether a miniscule trade-off in quality is justifiable in favor of lower costs both with the device (about 4x the price) and the media, in having transfer times well above 1:1 you'd get with DAT, and in having increased recording times (10-20h with 1xAA vs. 4-6h with 4xAA).

You can get a used PCM-M1 for about $300-$400 (new ones cost about $750-$800), which is not that much more expensive than a new HiMD. Also PCM-M1 uses only 2xAA batteries, unlike earlier Sony DAT units which used 4 batteries.

Also, the TOC failure leading to lost data Edmund mentioned is something I've experienced with my old MD.

That was among the scariest things in recording field that ever happened to me. I'm just not willing to take that chance again. I do often use MD as a parallel backup for DAT (it records from DAT's line output during the actual recording), but otherwise I'm not reliying on MD as much nowadays for critical material.

So those tiny weeny Deltas outperform the Sonys in the upper range. Interesting!

I wonder if these (that neat mini mic stand, as well) are sold anywhere in Europe. I wouldn't much care to pay the extra 22% VAT they charge us in Finland for anything imported from outside the EU.

I don't know if they outperform Sony's, but they certainly perform according to the specifications written on paper. Perhaps Sony lowered frequency response on paper, but as I said I don't know what they sound like in real life. As for VAT tax, perhaps you could ask the Reactive Sounds to mark it as a gift instead of merchandise in the customs declaration. They are a very small Canadian company and I'm sure you can resolve this somehow. They sent my stuff in a regular AirMail envelope to the US and I didn't have to pay any customs fees. Though I don't remember if they marked it as gift or merchandise. Heck, I just sent back to relatives in Ukraine a used DCR-VX1000E videocamera through USPS Express Mail, marked as an old videocamera gift that costs $140 (the real price of it used is still between $500 and $1200, while back in 1996 it was about $3000) and even the picky customs officers in Ukraine didn't take a cent in fees for it. So as long as it's marked as a gift and priced under 200 Euros, you shouldn't have to pay any duties.

As for your types of recordings, I'd say go for Delta with micPOD and either DAT or MD. My mother also likes to tape similar music in Ukraine, mostly on video though. She's a member of a local Sahaja Yoga group, where they have lots of concerts - so I'm going to get her a used PCM-M1 and Delta with tripod for great portability. That would be a lot easier if she just wants go get the audio, so she doesn't have to take a videocamera with her all the time. On a side note, can you imagine Indian style music with Russian or Ukrainian lyrics? Well, it does exist

[Edmund Blackadder]

Here are some pictures of my PCM-M1 with Delta and micPOD. Also the size comparison to iPod.









And here's the spectral analysis inside CoolEdit Pro of the sounds made with Canon PowerShot S50 digital photo camera, as recorded by Delta and PCM-M1. As you can see it clearly records sounds 20,000 Hz and above. Also below is the actual recording of those sounds in WAVE format.



pcmm1anddelta.wav

Another thing, PCM-M1 is a lot quieter than any portable MD deck, especially if you don't use the built-in light. Even with Delta sitting right on the PCM-M1, you almost don't hear tape transport. And with the types of recording you're going to be doing you probably won't hear any machine noise at all. By the way the background noise you hear in the above WAVE sample is my computer, which is quite loud.

[Raga]

Edmund, thank you for being overwhelmingly elaborate.

Heck, I just sent back to relatives in Ukraine a used DCR-VX1000E videocamera through USPS Express Mail, marked as an old videocamera gift that costs $140 (the real price of it used is still between $500 and $1200, while back in 1996 it was about $3000) and even the picky customs officers in Ukraine didn't take a cent in fees for it. So as long as it's marked as a gift and priced under 200 Euros, you shouldn't have to pay any duties.

I would suppose this depends on the country. I just read up on Finnish toll conventions, and if you bring in something yourself from outside the EU, you can bring stuff up to 175€ worth without paying the VAT. However, if something is sent to you by mail, VAT (22%) is charged in all cases where the amount exceeds 10€, or in other words, for everything above 45 euros (including postage), plus possibly other expenses depending on the merchandise. Labeling it as a gift doesn't make a difference here. A case in point, a friend sent me a low-end camcorder ($350 worth). I was then contacted by the customs and told that I would need to pay 22% VAT plus 13% customs charges, or a total of 35% of the camcorder price + the postage! I then ended up having to pay over 130 euros, or around $155, for the thing. Jeez!

My mother also likes to tape similar music in Ukraine, mostly on video though. She's a member of a local Sahaja Yoga group, where they have lots of concerts - so I'm going to get her a used PCM-M1 and Delta with tripod for great portability. That would be a lot easier if she just wants go get the audio, so she doesn't have to take a videocamera with her all the time. On a side note, can you imagine Indian style music with Russian or Ukrainian lyrics? Well, it does exist

That would then be what, like double ethnic music? I've heard some attempts to that end in Finnish, but god thank Finnish still follows somewhat similar conventions of pronounciation as Sanskrit, so it doesn't sound that (extremely) odd - I can only imagine how it'd be in Russian! Or English, for that matter, if the music itself was completely trad.

Anyhow, back to DAT vs. alternatives.

I found an interesting page at Minidisc.Org with a long list of portable recorders. One option I haven't yet explored are the hard disk players / recorders that also take direct PCM input. For example, the Nomad Jukebox series. Any thoughts on them? Quality-wise speaking, it does 44100Hz, but then again it isn't primarily for video use and will have to come down to 44100Hz for most uses in any case. A distinct advantage would be the possibility to copy over USB, and in JB3, even over firewire. Battery life while recording is a factor I need to look at. One of those would solve the issue of carrying a load of blank media with me. I'm heading over to India towards the end of the year for a month, and will possibly be recording somewhere in the range of an average of two hours per day for 30 days, and I also have the blank DV media I need to carry around.

[Raga]

It appears that also the iRiver H-series with built-in hard drives can also record WAV (which is assume means 44.1KHz PCM) from line-in, though with some limitations. Some elaborate notes here, though I wonder if some of the limitations are history since 10/2004 when that was written.

However (did I already say that?) I'm not really into proprietary battery formats, not the least due to the fact that electricity is often erratic where I'm at, which may mean I don't get a chance to charge the battery in time for the next recording.

[Raga]

Check out the iRiver mp3 player/recorders. I use the 895 model (512 MB)for wedding gigs using a lapel mic and it can record over 8 hours at 44KHz 128kbps. Runs on 1 AA battery and the battery lasts a very long time. You can find them at Best Buy, I think I paid $149 for mine a couple months ago.

Let me check here - you aren't using any sort of pre-amp on that, and it works just fine?

On small quality mics - any experience on the stuff from these guys?

Sorry for the many posts in row. I didn't want to cram all this into a single post in hopes to be read...

[Edmund Blackadder]

Raga, I'd say if you don't want to go the DAT route, then the next best thing that's reasonably priced would be HiMD. I don't think that all these new jukebox portable devices are ready for high quality recording, even if they use PCM. I doubt that A/D converters in them are that great. Besides, switching modes and even changing the recording volume I hear is a painful experience. Another important thing to remember, if you're planning to use either Delta or Sony miniature microphones you must have a microphone input with "Plug In Power". If you don't those microphones will not work. Both HiMD (those that actually have mic input) and DAT Sony portables have "Plug In Power". I don't know about the jukebox devices. So if DAT is not for you, then I'd get top of the crust HiMD portable with mic input.

[Raga]

I also do have some reservations on the mp3 / jukebox alternatives, and am debating with myself whether they are worth the try. To that aim, I'd love to have input from people with real life experiences on them.

Here's an interesting something I came across just now: Edirol R1. Seems to have been custom made for recording, in the $400 range. Looks a bit hideous, but that I don't really care. That's in fact a bonus in the environment I'm in, rather than all the übermodern looking gadgets that scream, "I'm expensive - look at me!" The device saves 24-bit linear WAV on CF cards up to 2GB size. Runs off two AA-batteries, recording time ~2.5h, which is still manageable.

Sorry for pouring over all these options, I just want to have my bases covered and make an informed decision.

Following up on the Creative Nomad Jukebox 3 idea: According to this it'd need a mic preamp.

[Raga]

Hey, regarding DAT recorders - how does the transfer from the tape to a PC take place? Just realized I never thought of that. I friend is currently looking into a possibility for getting a second-hand piece for a good price.

[mrtunes]

i have the mz-rh910, i think it sounds great. dumping the files onto the PC is great, but the battery life on pcm recording is not very long(about the length of a disc i'd say-1 hour and half?) could be more but maybe i havent conditioned my battery enough. you can also add recording time with the AA attachment. i dont really recommend the DATs even though they sound good they are old and if something goes wrong you wont have much luck with any warrenties like a new hi-md

it's not lit so the rh-10 looks good.

here are some products to keep an eye out for as of last weekend:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack2496-main.html

http://namm.harmony-central.com/SNAMM05/Content/Sony/PR/MZ-M100-MZ-M10.html

[Edmund Blackadder]

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack2496-main.html

Now this I would definitely consider getting even myself. Thanks for the link!

M-Audio has always made stuff that has a great sound quality, so I'm hoping that this little recorder will be just as good. If the reviews are good, I might think of getting one. The only thing though that I don't like (including the iPods), is the permanent internal rechargeable battery. So if you're in the field (say in some distant village without electricity) and need more than 8 hours of recording you can't just replace it to the charged one from your backpack, you're simply out of juice and that's the end of it. Perhaps I'll stick with DAT for now .