DV IN (firewire) or Video IN. DV cam -> DVD Recorder

[KrYlLX]

Do you have a DV Cam and a DVD Recorder with DV IN (firewire) ??

Have you tried to record from the DV Cam, to the DVD recorder, with both DV (firewire) and through Video In. If you have, how much difference were there in quality?

Are there any other positive things, beside the quality, with choosing the DV (firewire) way of recording?
Are Video In sometimes as good or close enough ?

Please list any concerns in this matter. It will make it easier for me to choose recorder.
Thanks.

[Frobozz]

Technically there is a quality difference because connecting via S-video means the camera converts digital to analog and then the recorder converts analog to digital. With Firewire the entire process remains digital. I haven't tried to see the difference. There are lots of other things affecting picture quality (such as lighting, composition, the camcorder's quality, the recorder's quality) so I don't concern myself with this issue.

The main advantage of using the S-Video connection with a camcorder is that is the way to record the day/time imprint the camera puts on the video. That doesn't transfer via Firewire.

The advantage of Firewire (besides slightly better picture quality) is that the recorder controls the camera's playback and, depending on recorder model, the individual scenes are captured as separate chapters. This can make editing easier. By scene I mean each time you start and stop the camera's recording.

One other benefit of the Firewire input on the recorder is I can export DV from my Mac's video editing application straight to the recorder. This lets me encode MPEG2 video in real time.

[edDV]

Technically there is a quality difference because connecting via S-video means the camera converts digital to analog and then the recorder converts analog to digital. With Firewire the entire process remains digital.

True, for S-Video, Y gets this treatment but U and V are further degraded by NTSC or PAL encoding and decoding.

The better your camcorder, the more the difference you will see.

Composite NTSC or PAL will degrade the signal further by combining Y and C forcing the use of a Y/C separation process in the recorder.

And don't forget audio. DV audio is digital PCM at 16bit/48KHz (same as DVD) or 12bit/32KHz. D/A and A/D will degrade this source.

[ckwok1]

Technically there is a quality difference because connecting via S-video means the camera converts digital to analog and then the recorder converts analog to digital. With Firewire the entire process remains digital.

I performed testing using my Sony DV and JVC DR-M10S and I was unable to tell the difference in most situations. There are several points that need to be considered here:

o Video captured using firewire is lower field first while video captured using S-video is upper field first. If you are going to combine your DV video with other video source, such as recording from TV broadcast, and you don't want to re-encode the video again, it is better to cature your DV video using S-video.

o Some DVD recoder includes noise reduction and video input adjustments. They won't works when you are using firewire input.

o Audio captured from the DV mic is not high quality anyway. You won't hear any difference when using firewire or S-video.

I use both firewire and S-video depending on situation.

[davideck]

KrYlLX - You should try both and judge for yourself.
Each setup is unique, and you'll never know which you prefer until you experiment.
My Mini DV analog through my Hauppauge PVR-250 makes great captures.

[zorankarapancev]

I bought the Panasonic DMR-E60 because of the provided DV input. I thought that the DV port is a “must” option that I did not have luxury to pass on. Can you imagine my surprise when I found out that I like the recordings from the analog input better then from the DV!

For testing purposes, I made several recordings for my clients from the both inputs - and everybody decided to keep the “analog” recording!

I don’t have to tell you that from that day I just left the DV input to collect the dust wondering what would be possible to buy with the extra money spend on the option that I don’t use…

The sources were Sony DSR11 DVCam videocassette recorder and Sony DSR-300A DVCam broadcast video camera. The material was the original camera recording.

Since we were told that “digital to digital” conversion is superior to “analog to digital” all my initial DVD conversions from the digital videotapes were made through the DV input on my DVD recorder. It never came to mind that I should test all of the provided inputs before I start using them.

I would probably never compare the results of the recordings if one of my clients didn’t come back with the DVD transfer, complaining that “the picture is brighter that the original DV recording”. Since he came back with his DV tape, we made a quick A/B roll of the DVD disc and the tape only to conclude that he had 20/20 vision. There was no other difference between the two pictures regarding the color fidelity, sharpness or any additional artifacts, except the fact that the picture made from the DV input was just bright enough to make a noticeable difference. Immediately we made another DVD recording, using the analog input on a DVD recorder. Compared to the DV tape, this recording was more true to the original image – the black was real black (not grayish/black) and the colors were deeper and livelier. To me, the difference between the DV and the Line input looked like a minute black level mismatch.

I can only assume that the analog/MPEG-2 conversion on my Panasonic DVD recorder is better then the DV/MPEG-2 conversion. Since the latest Panasonic DVD recorders do not have the DV-Input, it looks like the manufacturer is well aware of the difference in the performance of the digital and analog conversions and wisely decided to simply ignore the one that doesn’t add any significant quality to the recording, but only raises the price of their products.

[edDV]

I bought the Panasonic DMR-E60 because of the provided DV input. I thought that the DV port is a “must” option that I did not have luxury to pass on. Can you imagine my surprise when I found out that I like the recordings from the analog input better then from the DV! ...
...
The sources were Sony DSR11 DVCam videocassette recorder and Sony DSR-300A DVCam broadcast video camera. The material was the original camera recording.

...

I would probably never compare the results of the recordings if one of my clients didn’t come back with the DVD transfer, complaining that “the picture is brighter that the original DV recording”. Since he came back with his DV tape, we made a quick A/B roll of the DVD disc and the tape only to conclude that he had 20/20 vision. There was no other difference between the two pictures regarding the color fidelity, sharpness or any additional artifacts, except the fact that the picture made from the DV input was just bright enough to make a noticeable difference. Immediately we made another DVD recording, using the analog input on a DVD recorder. Compared to the DV tape, this recording was more true to the original image – the black was real black (not grayish/black) and the colors were deeper and livelier. To me, the difference between the DV and the Line input looked like a minute black level mismatch.

I can only assume that the analog/MPEG-2 conversion on my Panasonic DVD recorder is better then the DV/MPEG-2 conversion. Since the latest Panasonic DVD recorders do not have the DV-Input, it looks like the manufacturer is well aware of the difference in the performance of the digital and analog conversions and wisely decided to simply ignore the one that doesn’t add any significant quality to the recording, but only raises the price of their products.

Assuming you are in a NTSC country, it sounds like the classic record black to digital level 32 problem. Black should be recorded and encoded to level 16.

Somewhere along the path you got NTSC setup into the digital video. This will cause the black shift to gray that you describe. This JVC tutorial describes the problem.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/JVC_DEMO.swf

This could be a fault in the Panasonic setups (7.5 IRE vs. Zero IRE) at either the capture end or in the DVD encoding end. For North America, the DVD recorder should default to zero setup on DV (IEEE-1394) and 7.5 Setup for analog in. Japanese companies often ship product with Japanese zero analog setup.

It could also be an upstream problem in your DVCAM equipment as the tutorial describes.

[KrYlLX]

Thank's. This was very helpful for me.
I know now that it's not a must to pay the extra money it cost to get DV IN on the recorder.

Then again. I had not thougt about that the recorder can chapter the film automatically with the index signal, just like it does when I transfer to my computer. That is a good feature.

I'm from Sweden so we're talking PAL signals.

[edDV]

Re: zorankarapancev

Further to the above, here is a more detailed explanation of the bad black level problem, this time in the context of Apple's Final Cut Pro. The DSR-11 and other DVCAM products are notorious for lacking NTSC setup processing modes to correct improper digital black levels.

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/video_levels_nattress.html

This particular problem could be limited to mode issues in the DVD recorder but it could indicate improper digital tape recording levels in your DVCAM equipment.

[markhamPete]

There was a similiar thread in another forum about the dv input on recorders. It was interesting to note that the majority of replies stating that they could see a marked improvement using the dv input were from Pioneer owners.
I originally transferred my miniDV tapes to my Panasonic recorder (no hard drive) using s-video. When I needed to make more copies, I decided to transfer the same tapes to my Pioneer recorder (with hard drive) using the dv input and was pleasantly surprised to see that the picture quality was much cleaner.

[zorankarapancev]

@edDV

I am getting the same results from any DV or D8 camcorder that I am using for conversions (given from the clients or from the ones I have: Sony DCR-TRV900 and DCR-TRV460). It is hard for me to accept the assumption that every camera was/is faulty especially when some other people have similar experiences too. I would rather blame this particular Panasonic recorder.

[edDV]

@edDV

I am getting the same results from any DV or D8 camcorder that I am using for conversions (given from the clients or from the ones I have: Sony DCR-TRV900 and DCR-TRV460). It is hard for me to accept the assumption that every camera was/is faulty especially when some other people have similar experiences too. I would rather blame this particular Panasonic recorder.

If the DV tape was shot on a consumer level camcorder (no setup switch) and you see a black shift up to gray, then it points to a setting or error in the Panasonic DVD recorder.

If the DVD recorder is set for correct levels and you see this happen from one of your DVCAM units, suspect the level 32 problem. It will not show up on a simple DVCAM analog playback or from a S-Video dub.

I get this all the time with tapes shot by others. The source of the problem is usually an analog dub to DV / DVCAM or an incorrect setup switch setting on the higher end DVCAM camcorders. The only way to fix it after the fact is to digitally process the black levels back to level 16.

A client reporting a gray blacks compared to the original tape is a tip off.