what kind of PAL->NTSC converter do you use?

[lordsmurf]

This is only for hardware. No software.
This is for signal only, not playing DVDs.

What have you got, and does it have any side effects?
Like jitter, color issues, etc.
In other words, how perfect is the conversion?

I'm interested in upgrading my own setup.
The Samsung 5000W VCR I have is sometimes known to jitter when converting a PAL signal (not when it plays a tape, but rather when it converts a PAL signal fed to it from a PAL VCR on the SCART or composite inputs).

[FulciLives]

I have an old TenLabs unit ... the TR-10SP model. Back in the day (I got this about 1994 or so I'm guessing) it was "the shit" i.e., the best unit you could buy (supposedly) other than the then VERY new TR-11SVHS (basically the same but with S-Video connectors ... the 10SP only has composite).

I used it with a multi-system VHS VCR that could play PAL VHS tapes but did no conversion itself.

The quality, at the time, seemed A-OK to me ... but when DVD came out it left a lot to be desired. I noticed not only a lack of resolution but a strange "solarization" effect. Very annoying. However for a while it was my only option as my very first DVD player was a region free Pioneer that could only output a PAL DVD as a PAL video signal.

About 3 or 4 years ago I decided to upgrade and bought the CMD-850 which I got on eBay (brand new) for a slightly cheaper price than what COM WORLD was selling it for at the time.

At first I thought the unit was better but after time I realized that it was actually doing something very bad to the image ... I think it deinterlaces the video by throwing out an entire field. It "looks good" but has "jaggies" in the image. Like sorta what happens when you resize 352x240 to 352x480

So both of those are out of the question if you ask me.

I had a friend that had a Samsung VCR like the one you mentioned and he really did not like the quality ... he bought that $2,000 model Panasonic and I've seen some NTSC DVD's that he has made by playing a PAL VHS on the Panny and inputting it into a Panny NTSC Stand Alone DVD recorder. Looks amazingly good.

Of course TenLabs has a new "professional" model but that puppy is over $1,000 I think. There is also a new "higher performing" CMD now (the CMD 1200) but I wouldn't trust that at all.

My solution was to capture PAL VHS as PAL and convert to NTSC while encoding to MPEG-2 DVD spec. I do the same with DVD but rip instead of capture of course.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I finally got more or less "settled" in my new apartment. I only have a 56k modem at the moment but should soon have a cable modem. Expect to see me more often from now on

[Dragonsf]

I tried differnt approaches, but the best way is: use 2 different VCRs one for PAL and one for NTSC. Capture in native Format and let the DVD player convert to the appropiate format (i.e to NTSC in NTSC land and PAL all the others). I own a WorldCOM Format converter, but the picture after a PAL->NTSC conversion doesn't look good enough on a HDTV screen.

[ark]

Why not try ACE (UK) TBC, which is supposed to do a fantastic job?

I do not own one as yet but hope to acquire one some time.

[lordsmurf]

I tried differnt approaches, but the best way is: use 2 different VCRs one for PAL and one for NTSC. Capture in native Format and let the DVD player convert to the appropiate format (i.e to NTSC in NTSC land and PAL all the others). I own a WorldCOM Format converter, but the picture after a PAL->NTSC conversion doesn't look good enough on a HDTV screen.

Yeah, that's what I do most of the time, but every now and then, some situation forces the conversion. Software methods leave much to be desired, and hardware can be little better (though it can sometimes be MUCH better).

That's why I was looking for more information. I had actually looked at the COMWORLD units, but thanks for the warning Fulci, deinterlace is no good.

The problem with the Samsung is it squeezes the interlace properly, but the uneven line squeeze alternates and therefore "vibrates", almost like the jitter errors found in the early LiteOn DVD recorders (but not quite so bad). It's tolerable, but not ideal.

I've still not found a software method worth doing yet, most of them have ghosting/interlace flaws.

[donpedro]

Some time ago there was another multisystem VCR... Aiwa HV-MX100. My friend was using it to convert from PAL to NTSC. Not sure about quality though.

[Marvingj]

I use the Aiwa HV-MX100, it works great no jitter when converting. Nowadays pretty hard to find. I use to used the Samsung 5000 but it convert to pal sometimes. And That was enough for, I had to make the switch.

[FulciLives]

My old capture card (an AverTV Stereo PCI which is a BT based capture card) died on me.

So right now I have no way to capture ... saving up for *gasp* a DataVideo DAC-100 or maybe the Canopus ADVC-110 ... so when I can I will try posting some screen shots of a PAL VHS converted to NTSC using the COM WORLD CMD-850 but trust me ... it ain't pretty.

Might want to try the CMD-1200 but only if they offer a good return policy and even then you would be out the S&H costs.

Another thing I have noticed ... both the Tenlab unit and the CMD unit seem to work better on "bright" scenes whereas "dark" scenes don't come out very well.

My suggestion is to capture the PAL source as PAL video ... deinterlace ... then re-encode using the "DGPullDown" method of conversion. This actually works really well although I know LordSmurf is fond of cartoons and I've seen some really "ugly" looking PAL VHS cartoons ... I think because they started as NTSC then got (very poorly) converted to PAL.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

This is only for hardware. No software.
This is for signal only, not playing DVDs.

When travelling in PAL lands I carry a usb/firewire HDD and my ADVC-100. I try to get PAL tape dubs made to the HDD while abroad.

When, I return home with PAL DV or MPeg2 files on the HDD I'm mostly happy viewing on the computer. Those few files that I really need in NTSC I try to beg or trade out services to post houses for an off hours transfer. I also carry the drive to trade shows for demo conversions. So far I haven't needed to pay a dime but my quantity is small.

[showtaper]

This is only for hardware. No software.
This is for signal only, not playing DVDs.

What have you got, and does it have any side effects?
Like jitter, color issues, etc.
In other words, how perfect is the conversion?

Check out the converters at this site:

http://www.world-import.com/samar.htm

I have the Com World CMD850 and have been very happy with the
conversion quality. I do run a full field TBC on the output just
to make sure that the signal is as stable as possible when I feed
it to my capture card.

I've been using primarily with a PAL/SECAM SVHS HiFi VCR to
convert the several hundred hours of concert video I've collected.

The 850 is a standalone converter so I have also fed the output
of my multistandard DVD player and the results have always been
better than any software solution I've tried. No audio sync problems
as the conversion is done in "real time".

World Import is local to me so I've been able to try different
combinations of VCR's and converters. The price is unbelievable
for the quality you get - I'm probably going to move up to the
CMD1200 as it has more memory and can handle full SECAM
conversions as well.

World Import staff is very knowledgeable & helpful!! They carry
lots of multi-standard stuff (TV's, VCR's, DVD players/recorders)....

Cool shop, cool gear!

[vhelp]

TGIF

@ LS

I'm not sure you went this route yet.., so I'll ask anyways.

Have you tried using a device that captures from a PAL source,
straight to a PAL end product ??

then..

Take that PAL source, and do a PAL <-> NTSC ?? ??

I think fulci has a guide on this. Maybe all you need to do
is just some simple shifting around instead

If you don't, then maybe you don't need one because you
already do ..your capture card. Just change it
(source type) to PAL and capture it as such,
with your favorite ATI card, hehe..

-vhelp 3447

[lordsmurf]

Yeah, I can do PAL fine. But this is about those times when I am forced to convert.

[vhelp]

>> Yeah, I can do PAL fine. But this is about those times when I am forced to convert.

Do you mean, you can capture to PAL fine ??

I thought you were looking for a "hardware" device to capture PAL
sources

You can capture a PAL source with your capture card by changing
the source type to PAL.

Then, in the editing stage (as in fulci's PAL <-> NTSC guide) you
could convert to NTSC finally.

Maybe I misunderstood

-vhelp 3448

[lordsmurf]

Software conversion sucks. I'm seeking hardware.

[vhelp]

But LS..

I think the results (no matter what) are the same, as for NTSC,
when you go from:

Method A:
DVD: and GOOD CLEAN telecine source

23.976 fps -> telecined_to_29.970_fps -> IVTC_to_23.976_fps

Equals GOOD conversion. no issues, and smooth playback.


Method B:
DVD/TV capture: and BAD telecine source

23.976 fps -> telecined_to_29.970_fps -> EDITED_in_Telecine -> IVTC_to_23.976_fps

Equals bad conversion. blends; blurs; jitter; jerks; etc.

.
.

If the PAL to NTSC was done with (from) Method A, then you will
have clean trouble-free conversions.

But, if the PAL to NTSC was done (from) Method B, then you'll always
have poor conversions. I don't think (IMHO) that a hardware
device will do any better in these cases involving Method B.

I suspect that your conversions were done based on Method B scenarios.

-vhelp 3449

[hech54]

Thomson DVD Player into my Philips DVD Recorder....converts both directions. Most sources I convert were from original VHS anyway so the quality to me is outstanding.

[lordsmurf]

I need 29.97 output, cannot have 23.976
And the source is hard interlace, not telecined.

Again, this is about hardware signal converters, and your experience with them, preferably something you own.

Not about DVD players either.

[FulciLives]

LordSmurf ... you might be interested in looking at this old thread: CLICK HERE

Here are 2 pictures from that thread:

Panny DMR E-20


CMD-850


Both of these captures where done with my computer's BT based capture card. In both instances I'm playing back a SLP/EP speed VHS but in the first picture the signal was passed through a Panny DMR-E20 stand alone DVD recorder ... this was done to gain the benefit of the built-in TBC which does work in pass-thru mode. In the second picture the signal was passed through the CMD-850 which has a built-in TBC that works in pass-thru mode (NTSC INPUT ---> NTSC OUTPUT). So no conversion was taking place but the TBC did kick in.

Do you see the "odd" deinterlacing thing that I am seeing? Look closely at the logos in the top corners. Also the circle part of the key (the base).

LordSmurf pointed out in the original thread that the CMD-850 picture was just captured at a "bad" moment i.e., he thought it was an interlaced frame. But it is not. It looks like that in every single frame.

I still have the Tenlab unit and the CMD-850 so I can try to use it with a PAL VHS source so that the CMD-850 is actually doing PAL ---> NTSC conversion ... then capture it as NTSC and post an image.

But as I said I have no capture card at a the moment and my guess is I will be in this sad state of affairs for another month or two until I have enough saved for a new capture device. I know DV is only 4:1:1 which causes "issues" but they can be dealt with (filters) so my next capture device is either the DataVideo DAC-100 or the Canopus ADVC-110

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[hech54]

I need 29.97 output, cannot have 23.976

I don't get a quasi signal after conversion....my DVD recorder will not record any quasi signals....but your right....not technically a hardware conversion that I'm doing.

[lordsmurf]

Fulci, it'd be nice if I could get a clip of that. PM me about it.

This guy has something here:
http://a-neutronics.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=31&osCsid=c24b34f01...8f231af2283064
But he does NOT do refunds, and he refuses to let me test the unit (either free, or allowing refund if unhappy). So I'm of the opinion "screw him" as that's not a good sign. I don't like to deal with people that can't have the balls to stand behind their own product.

[vhelp]

@ fulci

FWIW.. (bad news w/ 110 versions) .. read here ..

-vhelp 3456

[gsh]

Why not try ACE (UK) TBC, which is supposed to do a fantastic job?

I have been thinking about getting this unit - the extra bells and whistles make it an attractive proposition.
I read the reviews on their site, and while almost all were positive there was some mention of "judder" during high movement scenes for PAL-NTSC. I used the enquiry form to ask if they had a link to samples of conversions and mentioned that my current method of converting is with software.
Here's the reply I received. It's refreshing to have someone be so honest about their product.
In all fairness I'd still like to see samples to decide if the "judder" is more acceptable than the softening from double field d-i sw conversion, as the unit is a pretty stonking all in one device.

Thank you for your enquiry about the ACE Converter. I am sorry there is
no try before you buy policy but we do offer a refund within 7 days of
receipt with just our costs deducted, stated to be a maximum of 8%
(assuming ACE returned in perfect condition) but normally much less.

I agree it would be good to see some examples but this is not easy as
there are so many different modes and to really be able to judge you
would need several seconds of high quality video which would be several
megabytes so not very practical for most people.

You say you are using software. To be honest the ACE is unlikely to be
better and generally all software and all converters in this price
bracket use fairly simple conversion techniques so all give some motion
judder. This is of course only visible on fast movement but to avoid it
requires motion estimation and the creation of output frames not
directly related to the input frames. Full broadcast converters cost
thousands because they have lots of processing power to calculate the
movement of every pixel so they can create new output frames where every
point is calculated rather than interpolated from the imput frames.

The only advantage of the ACE over software is that it is real time. If
this is important then the ACE is the right solution and certainly as
good or better than the competition according to all our reviewers.

So, I am sorry I have not been much help but the decision really amounts
to how inportant realtime processing is to you. Software will certainly
give as good results but is much slower.

Maybe you could email one of the custmers who have given their email
address and ask them direct. Many will have seen other converters or
tried software etc.

If I can answer any more questions then please ask.

Kind Regards

Gordon

[lordsmurf]

Yeah, see, that's what I'm trying to get away from. It's great that ACE was honest, that's a rare quality sometimes.

[FulciLives]

@LordSmurf ...

I got my old AverTV Stereo PCI capture card working ... not sure what the problem was before but it's working now.

I also found the CMD-850 although the TenLabs unit is still "missing" as most of my stuff is in boxes.

My multi-system Toshiba VHS VCR is hooked up and I just need to dig out a PAL VHS tape (all comercial release) and then I can post some pics and can even do a short video but I don't have much web space now and I am on a 56k modem but on August 5th Comcast is scheduled to come to my new apartment to hook up my cable TV and cable internet (though I'm considering cancelling Comcast for now and pushing it back a couple of months as I found out my $2.00 an hour raise got pushed back from August 1st to October 1st).

I could always send some video samples on a DVD to you.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[victoriabears]

Oooooohhhhhhhh I love this subject, being a Brit PAL in NTSC land.

My most recent discovery first!, using a
http://www.daytek.ca/dvrp30.html

for a dvd that my pc would not decrypt, using dvd decrypter or shrink, it was a disk problem, I have four burners and none would fully rip it.

I played the dvd on the daytek which has had the region hack employed and recorded it on the panny dvd recorder e85, and it copied fine!

So the daytek must have macrovision removed?

The relevancy of this find to the ntsc>pal subject is that the daytek(Amoung others) will take a pal or ntsc source and convert it to output either ntsc or pal and if you had another daytek you could then record in either(I suspectt it will even work as a pasthrough but haven't tried it)

It is this simple fact and the following reviews of mine that baffle me why anyone would use some of the solutions they suggest, but I do not venture into the 23fps or 29fps arena, all I want is a dvd that will play-simple.

You guys are the tops (even the colleseum) so hope I have helped, I have years of hard practical results from my simple methods.

Here is the equipment I have and tried .(& no size does not matter)

1: Tenlab TR-11SVHS converter US$700)

2: Samsung 5000w vcr (US$400)

3: Panasonic vcr (US$1800)

4: Tmpenc software(Us$ 70)

5: Canopus Procoder Express software (US$ 35)

6: Cyberlink software (US$70)

The problem about what is best, is how good is the source, you converted a pal vhs to pal dvd and were happy, but because you are introducing a format conversion are you looking more critically at the result?

I cannot say what is best as I have tried all these and get similiar results, sometimes the panny will deliver a more crisp but "harsh" looking result and the samsung a softer and smoother result.

Some help though:-

The tenlab has the ability to adjust the color qualities, which can be a problem of this subject.

The samsung can be better by using it as a passthrough from a source vcr to a recording deck rather than playing the vhs on the samsung or using it to record, I think its tape transport qualities rather than its conversion qualities are the issue.

The panny is composite only, but is very well built , bought it 2nd hand off ebay and it does work very well, not sure worth much more than the other solutions though.

The software solutions all work well on a pc that is left to do nothing else during that time, no internet/email-nothing.

Personally I get on well with canopus and suspect the full procoder is worth the money, I am just not prepared to spend it.

[FulciLives]

1: Tenlab TR-11SVHS converter US$700)

Curious how you like the quality of this?

As I mentioned before in the thread I have a Tenlab TR-10SP which is very similiar but only has composite in/out (instead of S-Video)... also I think the TR-11SVHS has a higher resolution rating but I really was mostly using the TR-10SP with PAL VHS sources (converting to NTSC) so I don't think the extra resolution of the TR-11SVHS would make a difference there. Otherwise I think they are identical.

As for a DVD source I think using a DVD player that does PAL to NTSC is probably the best next to maybe re-encoding it on a computer.

But I think LordSmurf is more interested in non-DVD sources hence his question about stand alone units ala the Tenlab units.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gsh]

I decided against the ACE and instead picked up a Samsung SV4000W on eBay for the very reasonable price of approx $100. The first test I have been doing with it have actually been quite a good benchmark - I'm converting a documentary that has live concert scenes with high movement and lots of bright colours, shots taken out the side window of a car of the scenery at 60mph as well as R-L scrolling text along the bottom of the screen. I had already converted this tape from PAL - NTSC by resizing in VDub then frameserving to TMPGEnc and using the Double Field deinterlace setting. The softening of the image due to the blending of the fields I could live with, but the scrolling text became nigh on unreadable. Trying again using Even-odd field setting gave roughly similar image but slightly improved text. Still not really acceptable.
The Samsung has proven to be the best method for this tape. There does not appear to be any softening of the image, and the text is sharp and perfectly readable, although the scrolling is slightly less smooth than the original. I can't detect any judder during the high motion scenes (except of course the text) and all edges seem to be the same as the source. All in all this seems to be a good bit of kit, and bearing in mind the price I am very happy.
I'm using the Samsung just as a converter - playing the tape back on my Panasonic NV SV121 and passing the signal through the Samsung.
I'm still seriously considering picking up the ACE though - it's colour correction capabilities really look interesting, and with a full frame tbc it could replace 2 pieces of hardware - the only thing it appears to be missing is noise reduction.