My goal is to transfer high quality 20 year old SP VHS home movies to DVD using a DVD recorder/VCR combo ONLY. I have given up on capture cards and such. Too flaky.
The JVC MV5S is a reworked MV1S. Just released. Loading problems fixed I understand! New board. The MV1S reviews, for the most part, have been good on this site.
The Panasonic ES30VS I group with the ES10 which, also, has had good reviews on this site. So I am stumped. Both cost about the same. But their nuances...
Both compete in the same space. Given what I am trying to accomplish, what would be the better choice? Any suggestions or opinions would be greatly appreciated!
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Panasonic does not handle VHS very well AT ALL.
The JVC tends to remove much of the noise associated with analog tapes, both chroma flaws and inherent grain noise.
The Panasonic does NOTHING for chroma noise, and then it does very little for grain. In fact, it tries to "retain detail" of the tape, and often spits out blocks because MPEG does not work well with noisy signals. Add to the fact that the Panasonic encoder is not great, and uses a somewhat lower bitrate than the JVC, and you have issues.
The Panasonic is a fine machine ONLY if you use 2-hour and ONLY if the source is something super clean like DV or satellite/digital cable.
Thank you lordsmurf. I understand. (I've read most of your posts.) My confusion lies in the fact that when I capture videos using the Panasonic, I seem to get "too much" noise. And when I capture using the JVC, I seem to lose "too much" detail. Is there no middle ground?
Granted these are both old low end units. Higher end units may perform better or differently. Although I KNOW you can't tell much from ONE frame, here are both the Panasonic and JVC (on Auto) captures.
This is why it is difficult for me to run out and spend $300 on a new unit. Balance eludes me. Or am I just picky?
Or do I need a pro, like yourself, to handle my VHS conversions.
In the end, what looks best on the TV?
Guess I screwed up on the images. I'll have to work on that one.
ANDDDDD the JVC (on Auto)!
The JVC DVD recorders clearly do a better job of analog input video noise reduction than other brands, producing a smoother image with fewer compression artifacts. This has been discussed in depth on the forum. However, it comes at the expense of some detail, and there is no provision to shut the filter off. Some other machines, Panasonic included, that have switchable video input noise filtering unfortunately do not perform this function very well. Toshiba units do have decent noise filtering (not as good as the JVC, though), and have two levels of input filtering available, plus off. Their machines might provide the "middle gound" you are looking for.
Some of this depends on the type of TV you will be playing the DVD transfers on... standard CRT "tube" TV's are very forgiving when it comes to grain and other video noise. Larger, fixed-pixel digital displays (LCD, DLP, plasma, etc.) are not. They highlight virtually every flaw in the source material.
I personally still like the JVC recorder best. I use a SignVideo DR-1000 Image Enhancer to sharpen the image a bit prior to recording. I find this restores most of the detail while still allowing the JVC to clean up excessive grain and chroma noise.
Are those captures from the MV5 and ES30?
The ES30 does have output filtering on playback. It is described on page 41 of the manual. There are four modes, normal, soft, fine, and cinema. This will not help if you playback on a different brand.
You might want to consider Lite-On as well. They use an LSI processor chip like the JVC but I understand they do not reduce noise as aggressively.
No trhouse, neither.
I used an old low end Panasonic (PV-V4522) I've had for years, and an old low end JVC (HR-VP673U) I purchased for my kids maybe 5-8 years ago. Not bad for old technology I guess.
Which is why I'm in the market for a new recording unit. Something which can transfer my HUGE home movie collection (VHS and Hi-8). The VHS tapes go back 20 years up through 1993 and still look very good due to long term cool, dark storage. The Hi-8 took over from 1993 through today.
Thank you for the Lite-On suggestion. I have never owned one of their products. Taiwanese?
Those are VCRs. That explains the "Movie Mill" in the image file name. I used "Movie Mill" myself with an Adaptec 2200 at one time. I am not so sure that the dvd recorders from those companies will be like that.
Here is a link to the Lite-On combo unit. They are based in Taiwan but like everyone else, it might be made somewhere else,
Here are three images supplied courtesy of gshelly61 from tests done on another thread,
Panasonic ES10 SP mode
JVC M10 SP mode
The difference is in the sky. The original has the most noise. The Panasonic removes some and the JVC even more.
Yes, there is a good example of what I've talked about. The JVC does an excellent job of suppressing grain and chroma noise prior to encoding. In the case above, the original DVD had lots of transferred film grain, probably because it is an older film that has not had a modern digital restoration yet.
When I made analog video copies of the DVD (using the s-video output of a Pioneer DVD player), the JVC handled noise reduction better than the Panasonic. The ES10 tended to leave more grain and resulted in some associated compression artifacts.
Why not shut off the video noise reduction and capture the original as is, with all the grain? Simple. The MPEG2 encoder will go nuts trying to do a hybrid VBR encode of frame after frame of background noise and grain, causing all kinds of nasty digital compression artifacts like mosquito noise and macroblocks.
It is true that all video noise reduction filters that are effective also cause some amount of detail and sharpness loss. There is no way around that.
The other alternative is to get a hard drive based DVD recorder that can encode at 15Mbps (HQ+, XP+), record with no video noise filtering at all, then do a variable bitrate "second pass" encode from the hard drive to the blank writable DVD (Sony RDR-HX900 and the new Pioneers can do this).
So what we CAN say is that the Panasonic does SOME noise reduction and does NOT distort the image. The JVC even MORE noise reduction if that is what you want.
When presented with both home movies (frames shown above), my three kids voted for our Panasonic. How do I read that? They were willing to put up with the noise to retain the detail. The detail for them was far more important than the lack of noise. Interesting. I actually preferred the JVC, and then the Panasonic. Depends on what side of the bed I get up on I guess.
I guess it all depends on your audience.
gShelley61, now I understand why you like the JVC/SignVideo DR-1000 duo.
For me, it will probably boil down to something like the Panasonic ES30VS ALONE, or the JVC MV5S WITH something like the SignVideo DR-1000.
I need to get the guy down at the local video store to let me record one of my tapes to both units before I buy. There's the answer!
Or I'll just take my tapes to a pro shop.
Wow. And my Super 8 film? That should be fun!
Thank you all.
I have the ES30V as well as several Pioneer and Panasonic hard drive DVD models. While I prefer the Pioneer PQ in general, the newer Panasonics do have noticeably better PQ than the old ones, in my opinion. The ES30V is indeed similar to the ES10. They may not soften the noise as much as the JVC, but to my eyes, they seem to strike a good compromise between cutting the noise and blurring the detail. The tapes I copy in the ES30V look better than the originals (this is especially true of EP recordings). Also, the LP recording mode has the same resolution as SP. Some may call this overkill for VHS, but I think of it as headroom.
While there certainly are macroblocks at LP, I think they are less noticeable than they were in the lower-resolution older Pannys (in spite of the higher LP resolution in the newer models).
Where the ES30V shines is in the automation of the dubbing process. I checked out all of the available VCR/DVD recorder combos, and the ES30V seems to be at least as easy to use as any of the others, and gets better reliabilty user comments than the others. While I was reluctant to get a combo, I just have too many tapes to dub for me to nurse the process unless editing is required on the content. For editing jobs, a VCR, TBC and HDD DVD recorder are ne plus ultra. For simple dubbing jobs, with maybe a need to separate individual programs on the tape, the ES30V is the bomb.
The VHS side of the JVC MV1 has been characterized on this site as "cheesy". Not very scientific I know.
Would you say that the VHS side of the ES30VS is at least adequate? How would you characterize it?
There is a feature about the VCRs in the new combo units which I like. The VCR can fast forward to the end of the video portion of the tape and it will stop there instead of fast forward to the end of the tape and start rewinding. Even when not using the combo to dub, it can be used to determine the amount of video on a tape. In the past this had to be done manually by fast forwarding then stop, check the tape position by playing, fast forward and repeat. The ES30 can do this and I am pretty certain the MV5 can too.
Originally Posted by slacker
You would do better to get a good VCR, and then a good DVD recorder (JVC).
Originally Posted by slacker
Because as gshelley has explained, because of how MPEG encoding works, too much noise results in blocks. As will a lesser quality encoder. Both of these problems are present in the Panasonic.
The ONLY way to avoid it is to flood it with bitrate and cross your fingers. This tends to be how XP mode works on most machines, as well as why "hollywood" has superbit bitrates on most of their movies these days. SP is close, but can still results in artifacts, and Panasonic SP mode does show them from time to time, if we want to get picky about it.
Distortion will still happen, though minimal.
And then you have to remember that chroma noise form the tape will be transferred, and not fixed, and that's not good either. LSI chips... as found in JVC, LiteOn and others... have the ability to remove chroma noise.
You may do well to go test a Pioneer unit. Walmart has them, and they have a generous 90-day return policy to boot. Go test it out.
I guess no one like the JVC MV5S, successor to the MV1S? VHS side mediocre?
No Walmarts where I live. Locally, I am limited to Best Buy, the Good Guys / CompUSA, Circuit City, Video ONLY, Costco maybe...
None of the above outfits carries Pioneer.
The Good Guys carry the JVC HR-S3912U and the HR-S5912U SVHS machines or the HR-J692U VHS machine.
Best Buy carries the Panasonic PV-V4525S VHS machine. That's it!
Video ONLY I'll be checking tomorrow.
Would something like the the S3912U or S5912U fit the bill on the VCR side?
You sound like an intelligent person. Dont take any advice from this forum as gospel.
I need to get the guy down at the local video store to let me record one of my tapes to both units before I buy. There's the answer!
Whatever you decide, I would make sure your most critical audience is satisfied.
"When presented with..., my three kids voted for..."
Although sincere and well-intentioned, there are simply too many good arguments and opinions on both sides. Reminds me of the talking heads on TV. Which means, in the end, one just has to bite the bullet and go out and experiment for themselves.
You are right as well. These DVD conversions are for my kids, my future bloodline as it were, not for me. Their eyes are better than mine at this age so I dare not discount their opinion.
My PREVIOUS 20 years personal experience with Apex, JVC, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, RCA, Sanyo, and SONY...
And I have tried to weigh everyone's POV on both sides...
And I'm only going to be using 1 or 2 hour mode...
And the unit has something called "VHS refresh dubbing" When recording VHS videotape images onto a DVD disc, the Time Base Corrector helps reduce jitter and performs signal conversion to create a stable signal. At the same time, 3D DNR detects and virtually eliminates randomly generated noise and color rregularities to help minimize flicker. Thanks to these two technologies, the tape input signal is automatically detected and optimum processing is performed to provide an easy way to even more beautiful digital pictures. which sounds intriguing...
And I can always do additional noise filtering in software if needed...
And I am concerned with VALUE first and foremost...
And I can always take it back...
I am going to start off with the Panny ES30VS and see what happens. The VCR component just MAY be good enough for my needs and the Panny ES10V DVD photos above appeal to me slightly more than the JVC. I can always take it back and get something else if I'm not satisfied.
I just may buy both.
Circuit City has ES30's on sale quite often for $269. Sometimes they have store returns for $229. Store returns still have their 30 day return policy and standard warranty.
Have fun and involve the kids in the testing.
From a review of the Panasonic ES30VS on Amazon...
On the VCR side, the rewind is blazing fast. There is a setting mentioned in the manual that allows you to run the vcr through the component connection. I've never seen a vhs picture this clear.
Amazon reviews, as well as epinions, and a few other sites, are simply off base, often dealing with "walmart" shopper that wouldn't know quality if they saw it.
Originally Posted by gshelley61
As Gshelley61 said it is something you have to deal with, there really isn't anyway around it.Do unto others....with a vengeance!
Here's where I'm confused or where I see holes...
So clear me up on some things...
JVC uses their "Block Noise Reduction Circuit, Color DigiPure and Hadamard Noise Reduction System" for post-processing. This affects playback only. Right? These features only mucky up my analysis.
For encoding the JVC MV5 enhances with a TBC, a stabilizer, and "Motion Adaptive Encoding".
The Panasonic ES30VS enhances with a TBC, 3d y/c separation, and 3d digital noise reduction. (The ES10 does not utilize these features.) These are particular to the ES30VS.
This comparison I have never seen and, I guess, this is my problem. It appears to be a unique setup which doesn't fit every JVC/Panasonic generalization out there.
Again, I guess I just have to go out and buy the darn things and test them out for myself. If I do, I'll post some results.
You all are great for your input!Matters of great concern should be taken lightly.
Matters of small concern should be taken seriously.
For pre-encoding, JVC has a modern multi-line, motion adaptive digital Y/C separation filter, a TBC/Frame Synchronizer, and 3D video noise reduction (chroma, luma, and grain/streaks). This provides the encoder with a relatively clean and stable video signal, with virtually no Y/C separation artifacts (like dot crawl) or excessive video noise. This saves bitrate and produces MPEG2 files with fewer digital compression artifacts.
On playback, the JVC has the picture enhancements and noise filtering you mentioned above. Key is MPEG2 noise reduction (block and mosquito noise suppression), which is helpful for DVD's that were not encoded very well and have compression artifacts.
Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony, Toshiba... they all have very similar setups to the JVC, implemented with some variations of course (and with differing levels of performance and effectiveness). For example, the input TBC/Frame Synchronizer in the Panasonic ES10 is reported to be very effective by lordsmurf and others.
One thing the JVC can do that the other brands I just mentioned can't... it plays back region-free PAL DVD's. In fact, it is an excellent "on-the-fly" PAL to NTSC converter. Much better than a hacked Lite-On, for example.
I have tested the ES30 and ES10 side by side. If there is any difference in the processing of these two machines, it is indistinguishable. I have a problem tape that tends to roll vertically and has some horizontal problems near the beginning. Both the ES10 and ES30 outputs look identical. There is no rolling in the output.
The combo does have a convenience. The ES10 records from its three external inputs, but it places this information ( input, time, and date ) on the chapter line of the title function. I have to erase by backing over this information to provide my own title. The ES30 when capturing from its internal VCR leaves the line blank.
The rewind time for a 1:23 minute tape with the ES30 is 29 seconds. My five year old Sony VCR needs 53 seconds.
The ES30 does allow when playing the VCR to select either the VCR output or the encoded DVD output to be sent out to the component or composite input of your TV. This is done just by hitting the "DVD" or VCR" button. It is handy if you want to do direct comparisons of the encoded output vs unencoded VCR signal. No dvd needs to be in the recorder to do this.
I think your kids could give you the answer in less time than it took to type this. Similar to yourself, I am doing a multi-family, multi-generation dvd album project. I discovered early on that this was not about what I like, it is about satisfying others. I did something similar to what you did with your images but they were video and let the people I am doing this for tell me what they preferred.
I went with a simple majority but it was clear that there were adherents to all the test videos provided so each machine will have its audience.