slacker,
ES10 utilizes these features too.The Panasonic ES30VS enhances with a TBC, 3d y/c separation, and 3d digital noise reduction. (The ES10 does not utilize these features.) These are particular to the ES30VS.
What you can eventually gain with the VHS/DVD combo is the direct signal processing from the VHS player, bypassing the OUT/IN connections, some unnecessary electronic circuits, as well as a mismatch in the impedance between different units (even from the same manufacturer). In theory, the correctly designed combo unit should perform better than two separate machines. The drawback of that design is the inability to connect another electronic enhancement unit between the player and the recorder, if you need one.
Regarding the encoding artifacts… The rule of thumb is: the higher the resolution – the more visible are the artifacts. It is a well known fact that in order to lower those artifacts it is necessary to:
1. Lower the resolution
2. Blur the image
The JVC recorders don’t use any “magic” electronic gadgets to get a smoother image, but instead of lowering the resolution (that would be an unacceptable option for the XP and SP mode of recording) the engineers opted for the blurring filter. As I mentioned before, it works for getting smoother images, but it makes the picture softer than the original.
Nothing is wrong with that if you like the result. People who are not happy with that are buying proc amps in order to correct the detail and sharpness of the image. These electronic enhancement units are plugged in the analog output of the DVD recorder.
What you should understand is the fact that the data lost with the blurring is lost forever and it is impossible to recover in its original form. The proc amp would only emphasize the remaining data after the encoding. Many people are happy with this fix and don’t mind spending extra money on the electronic processors that raise the cost of the DVD recording system.
In my business I found that my clients (including myself) prefer the higher resolution picture, with better detail and occasionally (depending on the length and the quality of the converted material) higher percentage of the digital artifact than the other way around.
The best design, in my opinion, would be to have the blurring filter with the option of turning it OFF or ON. In that case, you could employ that filter only when you would need it and when you would find its results acceptable.
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zorankarapancev,
Yes, the JVC seems too inflexible in that regard. There is no granular control of the filtering. And I don't feel I should have to go out and spend additional dollars for external enhancers to fix something that didn't exist in the first place. My videos already look darn good as they are.
Personally, I would rather post-process the video in software if need be. I have had great results with many of the better software packages out there, especially those which allow finer adjustments. You can do just about anything.
trhouse,
Since you have experience with the ES30VS, do you have any idea what this buyer was talking about in the following quote?
There is a setting mentioned in the manual that allows you to run the vcr through the component connection. I've never seen a vhs picture this clear.
Is this what you were referring to? -
Slacker,
Yes, but this is not so unusual as the person who wrote that would have you believe. Most ordinary VCR's have a composite output only. The ES30 presumably can send the VCR signal out to your TV via composite, S-video, or component. I did not test that.
The ES-10 can do the same. The VCR is connected to a composite input of the dvd recorder, the recorder component output is connected to your TV. The VCR signal will passthrough the dvd recorder and out its component output to the TV. The dvd recorder input signal processing will clean up the VCR signal on its way through.
[edit] I would still give the JVC a viewing if you can. Still images are not quite the same as video. -
Originally Posted by zorankarapancev
If that were true, all commercial DVDs would be full of artifacts. That's not at all correct. Artifacts are caused by noise confusing the encoder, combined with inadequate bitrate, or outright caused by inadequate bitrate.
Whoever made the Panasonic have an LP mode at 720x480 with a VBR of about 2000k is a moron, plain and simple. For that res, a bitrate of 5000-6000k is the lowest you should ever go, and it's better to approach a 7000-9000k bitrate.
And let's not forget, unless you're using DV or HDTV, your source is far below that, and much closer to 352x480 (digital equiv), be it slightly lower or higher. VHS tapes, off-air recordings ... NONE OF THAT is anywhere near 720x480, not even close.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
No doubt about it, the ES30v does apply some blurring. The difference between the 704x480 modes (XP, SP, and LP) is both in the bit rate and the amount of blurring. As recording mode goes from XP to SP to LP, the artifacts are more noticeable in movement scenes, and the blurring is a bit more noticeable in all scenes, including those without movement.
However, the algorithms used in the ES30V seem to blur high-contrast portions of the picture less than low-contrast, which gives some illusion of detail being maintained.
I notice both the blurring and the artifacts, but my wife (whose tapes from the 1980s and 1990s I am transferring on the ES30V) says she would rather have four hours on each disc rather than twice as many discs, and doesn't really notice the differences.
But then, she recorded almost everything in EP on standard VHS while my recordings from the same period are generally SP on SVHS.
My experience with standard VHS VCRs is fairly limited, but I think the VHS quality on the ES30V compares well to the JVC, Panasonic and Toshiba VCRs I have purchased or used in the past three or four years (which were all pretty good, but sub $100, standard VHS).
Again, if you want quality and can spend your life dubbing tapes, my personal advice is to get a good SVHS deck and a good hard drive DVD recorder from Pioneer, Toshiba or whatever. That's the Ruth's Chris's Steakhouse experience (and you will pay for it, in time and money).
The ES30V is the fast food of tape duping, but it is pretty good fast food, and may be the best of fast food out there now. -
trhouse,
Before I go and spend my 3 bills tomorrow...
Those are VCRs. That explains the "Movie Mill" in the image file name. I used "Movie Mill" myself with an Adaptec 2200 at one time. I am not so sure that the dvd recorders from those companies will be like that. -
I meant that the comparison of the VCR's from two companies does not mean the performance of dvd recorders from the same two companies will be the same. These companies probably have different design groups internally.
When you posted those images, you only stated they were from a JVC and a Panasonic. I think some of us initially thought you had obtained images from the MV5 and ES30 for comparison. I asked about it because I was puzzled by the Movie Mill reference in your image file. I only mentioned Movie Mill because I have used it and liked it.
The comment was not intended to infer anything about your Emuzed captures versus what a recorder can do. That said, I have not used Movie Mill since the recorder arrived. -
Wrong.
If that were true, all commercial DVDs would be full of artifacts. That's not at all correct. Artifacts are caused by noise confusing the encoder, combined with inadequate bitrate, or outright caused by inadequate bitrate.
…I wanted to make it simple so that everybody can understand, but I can elaborate a little more and try to avoid technical jargon…
First, whatever is “picture noise” for you, it is simply data for the encoder and it is perceived as picture detail.
The task of compression, handled by the encoder is to find redundancies and produce a stream of binary codes, which describes the sequence according to some mathematical video coding model. Fitting a video coding model by the encoder is a sophisticated optimization problem. As a result, there is always a trade off between computational power, compression level and video quality.
Compression is basically a process by which the information content of an image or group of images is reduced by exploiting the redundancy present in the video signals. This can be accomplished by analyzing the statistical predictability of a signal. The majority of signals have some degree of predictability. An extreme example is noise, since it is completely unpredictable.
Video compression techniques, such as MPEG-2, normally achieve a high-degree of compression (reduction in data size) by averaging or eliminating high-frequency signals. Usually, these high-frequency signals are associated with the fine details in an image. Therefore, the picture quality through an MPEG-2 codec depends on the complexity and predictability of the source pictures. The more high- frequency and noise, the more data to be compress.
Dealing with the huge amount of data (fine details and noise) can be problematic. Therefore, it would make sense to reduce the overall size of the data to make it easier to handle. The image data reduction is accomplished with “pre-filtering”. Pre-filtering, which softens or blurs the image, reduces the pixel-by-pixel variation and makes it easier to compress.
The following criteria is commonly employed to achieve desirable reductions in image data:
1. Reduce color nuances within the image
2. Reduce the resolution with respect to the prevailing light intensity
3. Remove details of the picture
4. In the case of a video sequence, parts of the picture that are unchanged are left as such
As a result a significant reduction in the resultant file size for the image sequences is achievable with more or less adverse effect in the visual quality of the compressed data. The extent to which these image modifications are visible is typically dependent upon the degree to which the chosen compression technique is used.
If that were true, all commercial DVDs would be full of artifacts. -
Using jargon in complex sentences still doesn't make it correct.
The most effectice way to reduce noise is inter-frame (temporal NR), not intra-frame, which is what you're suggesting. "Blurring" is not the same as intra-frame NR.
Res reduction has nil effect on noise, although it can make an encoder disregard more info (perceived NR). But that does not really occur until you get to low res like 320x240. Noise is still visible at most x480/x576 resolutions, as this axis controls much of the perceived detail. What you refer to, in terms of "hiding noise" is an analog trick, not a digital one, which is why VHS tapes can look great on a tv, but like garbage on a high res computer monitor.
At any rate, I don't know why you're posting all that here. Panasonic has a crap encoder, it chokes on noise (especially from VHS tapes), and it adds more digital artifacts. JVC has a great encoder, and some added NR filters (to avoid blocks, and to remove the chaotic analog noise). I don't see where the theory/tech fits into this exact conversation.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
@lordsmurf
I said it in simple words…I said it in an other way too…you didn’t like both… I guess there are people that can never be satisfied unless you always agree with them… regardless of who is right…
Since I don’t enjoy fruitless debates, I should not have replied to your last post. Everything that I said in the previously posts is easily verified by any introductory book on encoding basics.
@slacker and other members of this forum
I didn’t specifically recommend any of the mentioned DVD recorders because I don’t have first hand experience with them. I just wanted to help you understand why certain filters are commonly used in the encoding process and what could be the pros and cons of their use. I only mentioned what is my preference in regards to the performance of the DVD recorders.
As I said before, as an intelligent and educated person you should never accept any advice as a gospel from ANYBODY on this forum. First make your research and then buy the product that best suits your needs.
I am ending with the words of one of our respected forum contributors gshelley61:
“Yes, I agree there is no perfect DVD recorder so far. They all have their strong and weak points, with a few quirks thrown in to boot. Plus, it is very much an "eye of the beholder" thing... personal tastes, individual perceptions and the actual tasks the recorder will mainly be used for all influence opinions on which one might be the best choice for you.” -
You know...
This whole idea of recording at 704x480 might put my issue to bed. Since I use quite a bit of software on my PC for editing and authoring, I don't want to have to upsize EVERY disc to 720x480 over and over again. Right now, capturing from VHS to capture card is great because you wind up with one big mpeg file.
But having to rip a disc from your recorder, paste it back together again, upsize it to720x480, and ONLY THEN start your editing and authoring? Wow! What a time burner!
I love the quality of ES30VS compared to my old equipment generally. But the darks are way too dark in my "bad" indoor scenes.
Old...
ES30VS...
, and I can't live with 704x480. I'm going to go try the MV5 today.[/img] -
Why do I always screw up these pictures?
Old capture card version...
[/img] -
You need a proc amp.
Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
I know lordsmurf...
I need a lot of things, but with sending three kids through private school, I live on a shoestring as they say.
If the MV5 VCR is at LEAST as good as the ES30VS, AND the encoder is better, I will be happy with the exchange. -
The ES30 has black level adjustments for the type of media you are recording. Have these been setup for VHS? If you get the MV5, please let us know if it has black level adjustments. I believe the earlier M10, MV1 did not.
Here are two test images with the ES10 setup for a DVD test pattern source.
Original THX test pattern
ES10 copy
None of my software requires any change of resolution from 704 to 720 x 480. What are you using? -
The black level settings I left as I found them after reading zorankarapancev's Panasonic posting. Also, I didn't think any changes would be necessary since I was using the internal VCR to dub from.
As for resolution, from this site I know that Adobe Premier only accepts 720x480, and if there is the slighest chance that my encodes today will be non-standard in 5 years, I just don't want to go there. For now, I think I'm okay with 704x480. It's tomorrow I'm worried about. -
Also (for lordsmurf),
The 4 GB limit still exists with the NEW Panasonic. I agree that's a bummer. -
I thought 704 is part of the dvd standards.
Reports about the earlier M10 was that it had no black level adjustment but if there was any error it was on the light side. That might work for you, but if not, then you may need that process amplifer. If that concerns you, then a combo may not be the way to go since you may not be able to use a process amplifier with it. -
trhouse,
I believe you are correct. However, that doesn't mean software companies are going to necessarily support it. I just don't want to be left holding the bag.
Just as there are encoder chips that do not perform well at certain resolutions in the capture card world, so too there are software programs that don't perform well as certain resolutions. I for one will always try to be in the mainstream to ensure the most stable working environment.
Having worked in IT and in a production environment for 25 years I am clearly obsessive about standards. It helps to be somewhat of a futurist as well to reduce the number of wrong turns along the way.
704x480 sounds like an insignificant difference today. But... -
Slacker,
You are correct about software programs. When I started to do tests on the ES10, I used Sonic CinePlayer to capture still frames. The images looked like VHS. Then Lordsmurf and vhelp suggested another program called VirtualDubMod. It worked much better. Gshelly61 found the same problem with another capture program. We both suspect it is related to the 704 x 480 format since these programs did not seem to have the problem with 720 x 480 captures.
Good luck with the MV5. Hope it works for you. The Lite-On might work too if you think the MV5 noise filter is too aggressive. -
You can pick up a Vidicraft proc amp off eBay for about $50, maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more. Well under $100 though.
Also, there is no reason to think certain parts of the DVD spec will suddenly not be supported. This spec has existed for almost a decade at this point, and is for the most part unchanged, and will more than likely remain that way.
It is also incorrect that say that Premiere only accepts 720x480. You simply have the cheapo $99 ELEMENTS (limited) version that was made for DV only (720x480).Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
704x480 MPEG2 is used primarily in the broadcast arena... it is an accepted and supported standard. Panasonic is the only company I'm aware of that uses this encoding resolution on a consumer DVD recorder. NTSC commercial DVD's are virtually all 720x480, whether they are 4:3 or 16:9 anamorphic. I'm curious about Panasonic DVD recorders that have firewire DV input... how do they handle the 720x480 DV source? Is it converted to 704x480? If so, are the left and right edges simply cropped as they are with analog inputs? What if it is 16:9 DV source footage? Can 704x480 have the 16:9 flag?
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Originally Posted by gshelley61Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
I am recording on the MV5 as I write.
As compared to the ES30VS...
Out of the box, I will tell you that the JVC has an all around cheaper feel to it, even though the MSRP is $449 vs $299 for the ES30VS. (The first one I had to return because of shipping damage and mechanical defects.) The Panasonic is heavier, sturdier, thicker sheet metal, doors operate more efficiently. The JVC remote also has less features than the Panasonic remote. The Panasonic will operate multiple devices, the JVC will not.
The menuing system on the JVC is "raw", not very user friendly at all. The ES30VS flows better, is more GUI, with more settings and features. The JVC does not have any black level settings like the Panasonic.
As far as the player goes, the same DVD looks better on the Panasonic than the JVC. I haven't figured this one out yet. Could be my imagination.
So far, I'm ready to go back and get the ES30VS, but...
The encode is what counts... -
Can the VCR signal of the MV5 go out the component output to the TV also?
The difference in playback may be the 12 bit resolution output DAC ( digital to analog converter ) of the ES30. The MV5 has a 10 bit DAC. Panasonic customer support seemed to think the difference would only be visible with a commercial dvd however. -
trhouse,
It says that it can. However, on the MV5S using an Aquos LCD TV my composites looked better, "cleaner", than the component. The component side looked all raggedy. Go figure.
I took the MV5S back about 10 minutes ago and exchanged it for the Panasonic ES30VS. I recorded the same tape on both units and it was no contest, the ES30VS BLEW AWAY the JVC in quality, i.e. color, detail, lack of blurriness during motion scenes. I was really amazed. I'm not saying that Panasonic has the best encoder or whatever. But I AM saying that in the VCR/DVD recorder combo units, there is no contest, the ES30VS rules. I think Panasonic sprung for a better VCR than JVC.
The ES30VS captured 100 frames MORE at the beginning of the tape than did the MV5S.
The encodes from my 10 year old Panasonic VCR and Emuzed capture card looked better than the encodes from the MV5. I will post some shots.
ES30VS
MV5S
I can I can live with 704x480.
For now though, I need to get going on these transfers!!!
[/img] -
Unless the kid was sunburned when this was shot, and shot in harsh sunlight, I'd have to disagree with "better color" from the Panasonic. Not to mention the eyes went from colored iris to pitch black.
The image is darker and red-shifted.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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Could someone please show me the correct way to post multiple photos. Obviously, I am doing something wrong.
Thanks...
Panny
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