Why don't conversion boxes use component video inputs?

[tbessie]

I was looking around at the available conversion boxes, and all their inputs seem to use composite input, not component video input.

I thought that component video would be much more accurate -- why don't these boxes accept that, but the less-accurate composite and S-Video inputs?

Or am I getting mixed up here?

- Tim

[ADS Ivan]

The PYRO AV Link is the only affordable conversion solution on the market with Component In/Out.

[Nelson37]

Pinnacle makes one, as well. Unlike the Pyro, the Pinnacle is stated to capture hi-definition signal.

IVAN - Does the Pyro have the ability to capture Hi-def output, as in from an HD Cable or Satellite box? Web Site does not give this information.

[ADS Ivan]

Hi,

No, the AV Link does not support HD, as after the conversion happens, HD really has no place in the consumer workflow (yet anyway). Definitely stay tuned though.

Which Pinnacle product are you refering to? I am not aware of any hardware solutions that can support HD (720p, 1080i, et cetera), only Liquid Edition (an app).

[dj4monie]

So this would be eHD right (480i)? My RCA DTV box has component outputs and I was looking for something I could capture with also, since my ATI card has only S-video in.

[Nelson37]

There's a breakout box which comes with the latest Liquid, apparently $299 seperately, with component in. It is USB 2.0 and said to be picky about which cards it works with. Website states it accepts HD input from HD video cams. Does not mention any other source. SFAIK, HD component output is the same with a camera or cable or satellite box, aside from particular resolution issues.

The site indicates HD input is captured to DV-AVI thru USB 2. This has got to be close to maxing out the thruput possible, perhaps thats why it is picky about interface.

I gather you have some connection with ADS and they have a similar product out soon? Hopefully with Firewire connection to PC?

[ADS Ivan]

I really doubt that is how the solution works. More than likely it is referring to "HDV", rather than normal HD Content, like what you guys are looking for.

[SHS]

Here a review of Liquid Edition PRO
http://www.dvdoctor.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xMDAw

[ADS Ivan]

The review mentions just as I did that the HD is HDV, just like everyone else.

[Nelson37]

Whats the difference between HDV and HD as in HDTV?

That link was the first time specific resolution for capture was given, Pinnacle site does not give a specific number on captures, just on editing. 720p captured in this article, but this was captured thru firewire.
Don't need the box for that.

Have not seen any specific info that the Pinnacle breakout box either will, or will not, capture hi-res video thru the Component port. Pinnacle site specifically says component capture with HD video cam, but not at what resolution.

Whatever the technical differences between HDV and HDTV, would not component output from the two be similar?

[Nelson37]

I may have answered my own question.

The Pinnacle does specifically state all video captured using DV codec. Got that part.

I am assuming consumer HD cam is also DV on the tape or disk.

BUT - here is the question. Is not the Component Out of such a camera intended for connection to an output device, such as a TV? And therefore Can Not and Must Not be DV video, but instead uncompressed? Pinnacle site clearly says Component In ports are for capture from a consumer, HD camera. The assumption is that this would be HD video, but Pinnacle does not mention a capture res. Neither does recommended link given earlier in this post, except for FireWire.

My assumption from Pinnacle site is that uncompressed, HD video is received thru Component In port, then imported thru USB 2 port and saved using DV codec. However, since breakout box is merely a connector, NOT an encoder, compression must take place AFTER video crosses USB port. That is a Massive amount of data for USB, possibly beyond its capabilities.

But, if it does what is indicated, this would be the first, consumer-grade component input device capable of recording HD video that I have heard of. And only the second (PC-based) with any component-recording capability at all.

Anybody have any info at all on this?

[junkmalle]

HDV fits high def video on standard DV tapes with standard DV tape drives and standard DV transfer rates by compressing the video with MPEG, not DV.

The Sony HDR-FX1 mentioned in the review shoots 1,440x1,080i

I'm pretty sure the Pinnacle box contains a HD MPEG encoder/decoder chip and uses standard DV data rates to commuicate with the PC.

[Nelson37]

Thank You!

That would mean that the Component out on Hd cameras (all of them) is NOT suited to connect to a final output device, such as a TV, and is ONLY good for transfer.

So what devices would have the proper hardware to accept this? Or is ALL component video MPG encoded? I had thought it was similar to AVI?

My interest in this device is as a PC interface to HD output, for capturing purposes.

[lordsmurf]

Simple.
Most sources don't need it.
Your VHS and tv broadcasts won't benefit any.

[junkmalle]

That would mean that the Component out on Hd cameras (all of them) is NOT suited to connect to a final output device, such as a TV, and is ONLY good for transfer.

No, it's similar to the component output from an HDTV receiver. Analog video has no pixels horizontally, it's a continuous wave form. So it doesn't matter if the source has 1440 pixels as opposed to the 1920 of broadcast HDTV. It will just be a little fuzzier on the display device.

[Nelson37]

Maybe I'm not asking the right question. My interest is in capturing HDTV video. Obviously, there is no real benefit for VHS or SDTV.

Here is what I know:

The Pinnacle device has Component In.

HDTV satellite or cable boxes have Component out.

HDV consumer cameras have Component out.

The Pinnacle box works with HDV consumer cameras.

Here is the Question:

Will the Pinnacle box work with HDTV satellite or cable box component output?

How well and what PC horsepower needed, capture compression, etc., etc., are secondary issues, unless there is some good reason it just cannot be done. If there weren't some complications, what fun would that be?

[junkmalle]

Will the Pinnacle box work with HDTV satellite or cable box component output?

I don't have the device, nor do I have any experience with it. But from what I've read, and what I know about video capture, the Pinnacle box should work fine with an HDTV satellite or cable box (aside from any possible Macrovision-like copy protection schemes.)

How well and what PC horsepower needed, capture compression, etc., etc., are secondary issues, unless there is some good reason it just cannot be done. If there weren't some complications, what fun would that be?

Capture and playback shouldn't take much power at all on the PC's part. It's simply receiving or sending a digital bitstream at DV bitrates. Displaying the HDV stream in realtime on the computer will be a problem for slow processors (since the MPEG encoded HDV has to be decoded and sent to the compute monitor).

[Nelson37]

Excellent. Now for the price of the Pinnacle box to come down!!

Wonder if the 480i component limitation on the ADS box is hardware or software? Wonder what their next procuct will be and how much? and how soon?

Again, thanks for the info!

[Juro2]

Sorry...

The Pinnacle box does not support HD capture from a cable box! It can not take 720p or higher input.

It supports only HDV from an HD camera.

[edDV]

Let me give it a shot.

Maybe I'm not asking the right question. My interest is in capturing HDTV video. Obviously, there is no real benefit for VHS or SDTV.

Here is what I know:

The Pinnacle device has Component In.

Yes, analog component at 480i (720x480 interlaced)

HDTV satellite or cable boxes have Component out.

Yes but for HDTV these need to be set to 480p (progressive EDTV), 720P (1280x720) or 1080i (1920x1080)
The Pinnacle box does none of these.

HDV consumer cameras have Component out.

yes, at 480p (progressive EDTV), 720P (1280x720) or 1080i (1920x1080)
The internal 1440x1080 gets scaled to 1080i for interconnect.

The Pinnacle box works with HDV consumer cameras.

I seriously doubt that the box knows anything about HDV. It might pass the IEEE-1394 to the software codec only.

HDV requires a software codec or a different kind of box with a hardware HDV codec. I haven't seen one yet but I would assume Canopus is working on a HDV ADVC.

Here is the Question:
Will the Pinnacle box work with HDTV satellite or cable box component output?

Yes at 480i. No for progressive EDTV or for HDTV.

How well and what PC horsepower needed, capture compression, etc., etc., are secondary issues, unless there is some good reason it just cannot be done. If there weren't some complications, what fun would that be?

Not with this box.

[edDV]

PS: You need to frame your questions precisely.

Will it work with HD box component outputs?

Sure
(fine print "only at 480i")

Can I connect it to my HD box component outputs?

Sure
(fine print "but it will only work at 480i")

Can I capture my HD broadcasts?

Sure
(fine print "only at 480i")

[Nelson37]

Well, that sucks.

Still confused on one point.

Component output from HD camera is 480P at a minimum?

Is so, then the Pinnacle box must go at least to 480P, as opposed to 480i.

Not worth much with that limitation, but at least some improvement over current hardware available.

Still looking for an affordable, HD component capable device. Sat box with firewire out looks like best alternative so far.

[Nelson37]

Still more confusion.

The component out on a digital camera is analog, right? Not a DV-codec compressed file, but analog ready for TV display? People are talking about DV-codec files, I think that is what is produced by the Liquid software upon capture but I thought component is essentially like S-video or composite, analog.

I read the Pinnacle site several times, they are specific about Editing HD, with resolutions given. All they say about the component connection is its use with an HD camera, for hi-resolution capture, but no resolution numbers given. The box does have Firewire input but output is USB 2.0. They also say the box is an interface only, no encoding hardware present.

[edDV]

Camcorder HDV, broadcast DTV Mpeg2 TS streams and Sat DBS are all somewhat different subjects and formats.

All of this comes back to a media user wanting to record and time shift HD content and "Hollywood" wanting to control how you do this. You have a sat DBS box and are using the component analog outputs at the whim of "Hollywood". They can cut you off on a program basis or all together. What they want you to do is use the DVI or HDMI connector which is encrypted with HDCP. This output requires a HDCP HDTV to view or a HDCP DVR to record and all recording is controlled by them.

On a program by program basis, HD resolution can be forced by content owners to 480i or 480p for analog component connections over DTV (broadcast record flag), cable or DBS. HDCP encrypted outputs will pass HDTV resolutions for viewing and recording to a HDCP HDTV or DVR only.

A box that records component analog HD is a mixed blessing. First, it subjects the manufacturer to possible lawsuit. The more popular it gets, the more likely HDTV componet analog outputs will be turned off (to 480i) for all. If you, like me, have an early HDTV or projector, then you won't get HDTV at all for those types of broadcasts.

With that in mind...

Well, that sucks.

Still confused on one point.

Component output from HD camera is 480P at a minimum?

Is so, then the Pinnacle box must go at least to 480P, as opposed to 480i.

Not worth much with that limitation, but at least some improvement over current hardware available.

A HDV camcorder will output on composite and S-Video in standard NTSC. At the desire of the manufacturer, component analog outputs may support 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i. The IEEE-1394 output will probably support DV @480i and may support HDV standards at 720p or 1080i and might also include a 480p version.

Still looking for an affordable, HD component capable device. Sat box with firewire out looks like best alternative so far.

IEEE-1394 (firewire) out from cable or dbs boxes can be unencrypted or encrypted by DPCP. For everything other than local rebroadcasts, encryption is the decision of the content owner or provider. The FCC decided last April to prohibit encryption of the locals by the provider, but the locals are free to encrypt their broadcasts. If unencrypted, the signal carried is nothing like HDV. It is currently a MPeg2 TS stream in the D-VHS format. This could change at any time. The only regulation by the FCC is for rebroadcast of locals. I think the current rule is the cable or DBS provider must pass what they are given by the DTV broadcaster. DBS will soon go to a much higher compressed MPeg4 for HDTV so that may not apply to them.

Still more confusion.

The component out on a digital camera is analog, right? Not a DV-codec compressed file, but analog ready for TV display? People are talking about DV-codec files, I think that is what is produced by the Liquid software upon capture but I thought component is essentially like S-video or composite, analog.

I read the Pinnacle site several times, they are specific about Editing HD, with resolutions given. All they say about the component connection is its use with an HD camera, for hi-resolution capture, but no resolution numbers given. The box does have Firewire input but output is USB 2.0. They also say the box is an interface only, no encoding hardware present.

HDV camcorders have analog monitor outputs but the digital output is a 25Mbps compressed MPeg2 TS stream at same rate as DV but is a very different format. This HDV stream is wrapped the same way as DV so it can travel trough normal DV transmission paths.

[Juro2]

...

Still looking for an affordable, HD component capable device. Sat box with firewire out looks like best alternative so far.

I don't think you are going to find any box with firewire that can handle uncompressed HD. It's not fast enough.

It appears that the cheapest solutions come from Blackmagic. There are two of them but both will cost you about $4-5K.

One is HD component to SDI converter and Decklink HD plus capture card. You also need a workstation with 100/133MHz PCI-X slot. (PCI-X is not regular PCI or PCIe)

The second is Multibridge Extreme. You need to have a strong PC with 4x PCIe slot.

In both cases you need hundreds of GB hard drive space on RAID 0 array and software of cause

Let me know if you find something cheaper,

Juro

[Nelson37]

SFAIK, the firewire on the sat (or cable) box outputs formatted for a DVHS vcr. This can be emulated with software and a firewire card on the PC.

Don't know the compression scheme for this, filesize numbers appear to be in the 30-40 gig per hour range. Info and software from Avsforum.

HD and CPU performance needed for this is just a little on the high-end now, should be mid-range (read something I can afford) within a year or so.

My thinking on the component input is that as an analog signal which must be compatible with existing sets there would not be any added "protection schemes", whereas a digital signal would be easier for "them" to change to make more difficult capture. But then, component is supposed to be phased out over the next few years?

What I need is a Super Whizzo 3000, or a way to Kluge one out of stone knives and bearskins.

This year I will probably get HD, even though my HD tv is still a year or so away. Visual experiments only (no capture yet) shows me that a downsampled HD signal thru S-Video is better than a standard signal thru the same SVideo connection.

With reference to the Pinnacle box at 480P - Say a broadcast, an NFL game for instance, is sent at 720P. I assume the box would not accept this at all. Can the sat box be set to output at 480P, like for an EDTV? Or would the downsample be expected to occur at the TV, rendering the Pinnacle box useless? This seems to be the case from what I am reading.