afternoon cartoons now extinct

[lordsmurf]

What began in the early 1980s has now died after about 25 years of existance. What once used to be a trend for all USA tv networks to carry cartoons (kids entertainment) has slowly dwindled down to 1-2 major networks and a few independents in varying markets.

KidsWB! was one of the last major holdouts in this type of programming, for traditional broadcast (non-cable, non-satellite) stations. They will quit at the end of this year.

http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000939148

The WB will drop its weekday 3-5 p.m. kids programming block beginning in January 2006, and at the same time will add one hour to its Saturday morning kids block, beginning its kids programming at 7 a.m. instead of 8 a.m. and running until noon.

The move is being made at the request of the network’s more than 200 affiliated stations, which have seen the ratings of the weekday afternoon kids block decline steadily of the past several years.

In its place, the network will provide for its affiliates a two-hour “branded general-entertainment programming block,” that will initially consist of off-network, syndicated programming, but which the network hopes will eventually consist of specially developed first run shows.

It's getting to where there's nothing worth capturing off regular tv. Reality, news, talk, and other junk is all we have left.

[MikeV]

Well i guess it's time to turn off the TV for good and find something else to due with my time. I wonder if i still have that BBQ grill in the backyard, haven't been back there in years.

[ROF]

Since the quality of "kids" cartoons has gone downhill, this doesn't come as a surprise to me. No longer are cartoons the mind numbing laughable physical slapstick comedy. Kids cartoons have been slowly dwindling in appeal since the start of what I like to call reality cartoons. These toons pretend to be just like the ordinary kids they are attempting to entertain with their semi out of the ordinary situations.

What happened to cats that don't talk and are outsmarted by the mouse they constantly chase?

What happened to a hunter who fumbles his way towards the goal of shooting a rabbit?

What happened to Super Heroes on Missions to save Humanity?

What happened to Good Vs. Evil Battles?

Political Correctness is what happened? It's animal rights activists who killed Bugs Bunny. It's ultra-right wing conservatives who killed the Justice league, Gi Joe, Heman, and other semi-violent cartoons.

Instead, what do we have? Dumbed down versions of Adult Cartoons. Sponge Bob anyone? RugRats?

These cartoons, while they do entertain, aren't the cartoon entertainment of yore. Mom would turn on the TV and never really minded what the characters were doing. Today, these cartoons challenge their parents, do disparaging things to others and themselves, and in general dictate to the easily manipulated how they should act.

If you ever wonder why kids act the way they do today(talking back to parents, pouting to get their way, etc.) watch one of these cartoons and you will see your son or daughter in these characters. They even start using the same hurtful words some of these characters use.

Why are Afternoon Cartoons extinct? Because kids have other things to do besides watch something that will later get them in trouble with mom and dad when they attempt to duplicate the verbally hurtful situations of these cartoons.

If these networks wish to revive afternoon cartoons, they need to learn something. Kids want mind numbing entertainment from their cartoons with situations so unbelievable and so visually inspiring that it makes their videogames seem like a ride to aunt rosies house.

Somehow the networks got confused that kids want to see something of themselves in cartoons.

[Snakebyte1]

About 18 months ago I moved to a new house, and with the extra expenses and moving stuff and all that I decided to wait a couple of months before getting hooked up to sat or cable (and I can't get anything over air either)... I rent a couple of DVDs each month but otherwise the TV if off.

Well its been a year and a half now and I still haven't bothered hooking up. After a couple of months I found that I had adjusted my time and now do other things with it, and of course, I have found other uses for the money that otherwise would be going to the cable or sat companies. I don't miss having acess to TV that much.

When I visit my folks one of the first things I do is look through the TV guide but I rarely find anything I want to watch, and when I do turn on something I usually lose interest in it quickly. Either the new shows are significantly lower in quality or having not been brain-numbed by TV for the last year and a half I expect more (both are true I suspect).

This leads me to a couple of comments:

Comment 1. The entertainment industry should realize that the more they anger their customers, the more likely people are to tune out and once tuned out it doesn't take that long before they re-adjust their time and spending.

I used to buy music CDs and tapes, but after getting burned by paying $28.00 for a CD that had 30min of crap music I said screw it, and I have not bought a CD since (and that was years ago). I listen to my older stuff or just the plain old radio now. Like with the TV, it took a month or two to break the habit but after that I don't miss it at all. I don't care if the price of CDs drops to $5.00, I probably still won't buy becuase I have other interests now. They have lost this customer for good.

Comment 2. I find it baffling that so many people just can't give up buying CDs and DVDs. They complain about the cost and all the copyright protection stuff, but still go out and buy the stuff saying they "have to" have new music or the latest movie. You need water, you need food. You don't need to by music or a movie.

If consumers want to get their point across all they need to do is just stop buying, say for a year. If huge number of people stopped buying for a year the prices would drop fast. But of course that will never happen because so many people, for some reason, just "can't live" without new tunes etc., but if they actually tried, well, they may find out they don't need the stuff at all.

[ROF]

If consumers want to get their point across all they need to do is just stop buying, say for a year. If huge number of people stopped buying for a year the prices would drop fast. But of course that will never happen because so many people, for some reason, just "can't live" without new tunes etc., but if they actually tried, well, they may find out they don't need the stuff at all.

It may sounds all well and good, but what will happen is the entertainment industry will cry foul, say they've lost profit, shareholders will start complaining, and prices for entertainment will increase exponentially to recover the losses caused by such boycotts.

What you have done is exactly the opposite of what you intended. Trust me, the entertainment industry is all about the bottom line. You do something to cause that bottom line to drop, and the entertainment industry will do something to increase the bottom line.

This happens in many other sectors. Energy costs are a good example. Look at your Gas and Electric Bill. Compare this to the actual costs of doing business with the company(product, employees, etc), now take that cost and multiply it by the number of people who all use this same G&E company. Is there a huge surplus in profit for the company? yes, there is. Now factor in those who don't pay their bills regularly or at all. How much does that equate to? We've now just about balanced this G&E companies books.

Those who don't pay cause the rest of us to pay higher prices. An entertainment industry boycott would do the same thing.

But really, what does this have to do with the downfall of Afternoon cartoons?

[Snakebyte1]

My previous comments did not have anything to do with cartoons, but was in response to MIKEV's comment...

I agree that a boycott will not work in reality. However, if the entertainment industry raises prices to cover losses it would, in theory, drive more people away. They can only raise prices so high. How many people would pay $40 for a typical CD? or $50 for a DVD. The theatres have been doing this for the last few years, raising admission prices has increased revenues, but total ticket sales have been declining. Sooner or later they will hit a price that will cause revenues to decline.

Remember, this is a luxury item, people can live without big industry entertainment.. Energy falls into a different group. You can't really boycott it. You need gas for the car and electricity etc. You can reduce your comsumption but never really eliminate its need (unless you have a Mr Fusion in your basement).

But as was said, this does not have anything to do with cartoons, so....

From the cartoons I have seen in the last few years, they tend to be pushing various political messages -the politically correct message of the week as it were. When I was a kid I watched Bugs out smart his foes and enjoyed it. Kids today have to try and figure out why such and such character has a "non traditional" family, or why they can't eat this or that etc. Cartoons are almost always preaching something now, trying not to offend this group or that group at the expense of offending another group etc and I think that's why the modern cartoons are so crappy. I think this is the wrong venue for that. The kids watching are far too young in most cases to be exposed to this, and its no wonder they are not interested in it and so tune out, and once they tune out they find other things to do with their time (hopefully, but not always, more constructive things).

[only_emo_kid]

kids cartoons are turning into Family Guy and simpsons whut happened to bugs bunny and all

[Cornucopia]

Aye, the Simpsons are one of the few new torchbearers (I would also say Southpark and King of the Hill, but many would disagree).

I know! Why doesn't somebody here start producing animation!?

Unfortunately, to regularly churn out animation, you need a big business backing it. Big business requires a ROI. Times have changed and so have view habits, so the ROI just isn't there.

If you do want to watch (or have your kids watch) good cartoons, buy or rent the DVD's and have a DVD "cartoon hour" at your house.

BTW, after-school cartoons have been around at least from the '60s (I watched 'em then), and probably from the late '50s.

Scott

[lordsmurf]

BTW, after-school cartoons have been around at least from the '60s (I watched 'em then), and probably from the late '50s.

Not in syndication like they are now. Or at least have been. Especially not the direct-to-syndication runs of 50+ episodes. He-Man is widely regarded as the one that started it all, in 1982. What you saw back in the 60s was re-runs from Saturday morning runs (Archie, Scooby, etc) and old theatre bits (T&J, Bugs, etc). But few networks did it.

The Simpons, Family Guy, etc ... those are American-grown adult toons that follow in the primetime footsteps of Flintstones, Jetsons and other from the 60s (those were neither afternoon, nor for kids).

In 1999, Fox Kids ran what they called the "anime invasion" block at the end of their time slot. Indeed, it invaded, and then trashed, the entire slot and afternoon toon genre. So yes, anime is largely to blame. Not because of it being anime, but because it is, as others have mentioned, severly edited and "sanitized" for the American audience.

Even more sad is American-made toons are now getting first-play air time in Canada, Australia and Europe on many toons (especially superheroes, one of the last non-anime style shows we have left). They keep doing this to "manage" the rating, but all they do is piss off their fan base that much more. Gaps in time are often so great between new episode airings that people forget about them and move on to some other show!

There is also a HUGE TREND for mergers. Once upon a time, most toons were owned by a couple large corps (Disney, Warner). In the past couple years, we have seen Disney (Toon Disney, Disney Channel, ABC Family, ABC) and Time Warner (4Kids, KidsWB!, Cartoon Network, Boomerang) end up owning these properties again, some by happenstance, some by direct choice. This may also be partly to blame. In the 80s-90s, there were MANY MANY MANY independents that owned varying properties and broadcast arenas. Not any more. A trifecta is emerging, Viacom being the last of the three (although they only use Nickelodeon/Nick Toons and not UPN, the network property).

This extends to tv shows too. How many good blocks of sitcom time have you seen disappear to Springer/Oprah clones? Court shows? Reality tv? "News" infotainment? Infomercials? Game shows died some years back, much in the same manner (though a few are still left on a couple networks). It's only a matter of time before soap operas also get axed. At least sports have remained mostly unscathed.

About the money, in the 1980s, toy companies were primary backers of cartoons. I don't know if this happens anymore, but I doubt it (though Hasbro still does it). This is only a guess, but I bet it's reversed now. Instead of toy companies backing the shows, they enter the scene later on and merely buy rights to the characters for toys, not an investor. If this leaves the bear's share of upfront costs on the production companies, the death of a genre was inevitable.

[ROF]

I agree that a boycott will not work in reality. However, if the entertainment industry raises prices to cover losses it would, in theory, drive more people away. They can only raise prices so high. How many people would pay $40 for a typical CD? or $50 for a DVD. The theatres have been doing this for the last few years, raising admission prices has increased revenues, but total ticket sales have been declining. Sooner or later they will hit a price that will cause revenues to decline.

What about the two biggest luxury item industries:

1) Tobacco
2) Video Games

Both keep raising there cost per unit, yet both are swelling with new comers. Anyone in the USA see those wondeful new commercials on TV, radio, buses, billboards, etc. that claim the Tobacco is very interested in the youth of today's society, but only interested in the youths money? They further claim in these ads that the Tobacco spends millions of dollars to get youths to smoke. I don't know about you, but each time I see those ads I have to light up. Why? Because I am reminded that I want to inhale some nicotine. Thanks for the reminder, BTW, but it should be pointed out, who is actually spending more money on youths, the Tobacco Industry or the Anti-Tobacco industry?

But I digress . . . .

Tobacco and video game costs keeping going up and up, yet more and more people smoke today then ever before and more and more people play video games then ever before. Price is irrelevant to the luxury cost of enjoying yourself.

If cigarettes cost $2 a pack, will a smoker buy them? Yep! If that same pack costs $10 would a smoker buy them? Yep! Would they decrease the amount they smoke? Nope. Same goes for videogames. If you buy any of the next gen consoles will you pay $70 for a videogame. Yep!

Why is that?

Because it's a luxury you enjoy and cost is no object to your enjoyment to the fullest in whatever luxury activity you participate in.

Gasoline used to cost .75 cents a gallon, yet at $2.50 a gallon I'm still buying the same amount. I could do without going for my weekly enjoyment drive, but do I? No, because to me the cost of gasoline is the price I pay for my enjoyment.

Cost, while a factor for me to not visit a movie theater, is not my sole reason for not visiting them. I'd rather buy a $40 DVD, watch it twice and sell it to friend for $20. I got my $20 worth of enjoyment and gave my friend a discounted entertainment medium.

DVD's and all media for that matter will continue to be bought by those who value their entertainment. There is no price too great to sacrifice my enjoyment.

Inflation takes it's toll on my disposable income more than any increase in entertainment media ever could.

[ozymango]

I haven't watched afternoon cartoons in years, and not just because I got older. Personally, I can narrow it down to two words -- they suck. Lord Smurf tossed out the show "He-Man" and I dunno if this is a sample of what passes for a decent kids cartoon show of the time (middle 80's?) but about that time I was in my late teens (I think) and I thought that show sucked then. No offense! It's all a matter of what personal taste -- I'm not crazy about most of the anime I've seen either (why is everybody blond with sharp noses?) :P

But that's a whole 'nother topic; back to afternoon cartoons, it may be true that they're "dying off" on what I would assume we can call network TV (in that it's available "free" to most viewers, over-the-air), but back in the 80's the electronic culture was vastly different than it is today, and I don't think we can directly compare today with yesterday in terms of "afternoon cartoons."

You know Spongebob Squarepants? They were just talking to the voice of Spongebob on NPR this last weekend. Spongebob on NPR! Can you imagine He-Man and She-Ra on NPR? Or one of those amazingly sucky GI Joe cartoons of the same time?

Again, this is not meant in offense at those who find those (incredibly sucky) cartoons to their taste! Hey, when I was a kid (circa 1968) I looked forward to coming home from school and watching "Barney Google and Snuffy Smith", followed by Krazy Kat, and ending with "Thunderbirds" (not animation, but SuperMarionation). And I would get up at 7am every Saturday morning to watch Bugs Bunny (still my favorite cartoons of all time).

But there weren't any other options back then. And even in the 80's, VCRs were infant technology. Look at today -- you can get pretty much any cartoon you want, any time, on tape or DVD (with director's commentary!) and -- very importantly -- there is the Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon (source of the aformentioned Spongebob). There may be some fall-off in terms of "over-the-air" cartoon programming but can you imagine, as a kid, having the cartoon options available to us nowadays? Boggles the mind!

I suppose one could argue that we now have to pay for what used to be free, but that's life in the big city nowadays (and I don't like it either but whaddya gonna do?). There are still watershed shows on TV, they're just on cable -- The Sopranos, Deadwood, SpongeBob Squarepants. And don't get me started on animated films! When I was a kid, "A Man Called Flintstone" was the level of animated films (outside of Disney stuff); last weekend "Madagascar" took in over $60 million. Wow!

[spiderman2k1]

Their are some people moving back to comic books to get their cartoon fix now. Comic books are also having a hard time right now. But it is relly the last place to get the high comic book cartoon stories that most cartoon fans or comic book fans love.

To find a comic book store in your town

http://previews.diamondcomics.com/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=6&s=44&ai=11669

Also Stop&Shop supermarkets now sell comics and some other small stores. their trying to make a come back

[Poppa_Meth]

The Japanse are taking over where cartoons are concerned. I'm happy with my massive Wall-O-Anime. I could've bought a car by now with all the money I've sunk in anime DVDs.

[oldfart13]

I already have a fantastic source of comic books in my area so I don't need Diamond's list. They also rent DVDs and VHS tapes. I seldom take anything out at all and since reality intruded so harshly in my life, I can't take reading most modern comics. They are lame to this oldster that started out reading comics in the 50's. I have since gone back to reading old 60's comics from my collection and watching old cartoons from channels like Boomerang. Latest reports from surveys in the U.S. seem to indicate the net is in a large part responsible for changing viewing habits and will continue to do so. I sit at my comp for at least 8 hours per day, so the major networks have lost this viewer. I would imagine this must be worrisome to someone since this is happening to large numbers of people all over the world. And yes, with it summer here I'm also outside a lot. TV I can do without when it's a sunny day...

[verchad]

I know one problem with todays cartoons, many of them stink, many are so tied into a toy or products. I grew up in chicago area, we saw local kids programming/cartoons in the morning on WGN, WFLD, and others. They were just goofy fun to watch.

My 5 yr old loves the disney channel, kim possible, which I get a kick out of some of the jokes, but she loves the house of mouse, especially when they have shown some of the old original disney shorts. She also enjoys Sccoby Doo the older ones and unfortunately s-crappy doo too. We also like to watch CN and Boomerang and see old Looney Tunes and Tom & Jerry. We recently showed her Space Jam and she loved it, having seen many of the characters on CN.

I know they are not politically correct - all the violence, shooting, falling, killing, even stereotypes in some. But we just talk with her and tell her that those are make believe and we don't really do things like drop an ironing board on the cats head or blow people up ( at least our family doesn't ). I'd much rather her watch and laugh at those things than some of the things they market to kids now, some of the stuff put out by Dic is just garbage. And best of all, we enjoy this as a family, together.

[davideck]

I grew up in chicago area, we saw local kids programming/cartoons in the morning on WGN, WFLD, and others.

Hey verchad - are you old enough to remember the Ray Rayner show? He was a cartoon all by himself!

My favorite "cartoon" was a series called Reboot about what goes on inside a computer network; it was very well done and always gave the parent geek something to laugh at.

How ironic that every time I'm at Best Buy or CC looking at big screen flat high definition TVs I can't justify buying one because there is so little worth watching. We are a high technology society that seems to be interested in evolving the transfer of information much more than the content...

[verchad]

I grew up in chicago area, we saw local kids programming/cartoons in the morning on WGN, WFLD, and others.

Hey verchad - are you old enough to remember the Ray Rayner show? He was a cartoon all by himself!

My favorite "cartoon" was a series called Reboot about what goes on inside a computer network; it was very well done and always gave the parent geek something to laugh at.

How ironic that every time I'm at Best Buy or CC looking at big screen flat high definition TVs I can't justify buying one because there is so little worth watching. We are a high technology society that seems to be interested in evolving the transfer of information much more than the content...

Ray, chelveston the duck, cuddly duddly, also remember bozo's circus, and family classics with frazier thomas. And I forgot The Gigglesnort Hotel with Blob and Dirty Dragon. The best was when Ray Rayner would "try" to make a project and it never looked like the example.

[Wile_E]

kids cartoons are turning into Family Guy and simpsons whut happened to bugs bunny and all

This is what happened to Bugs Bunny. They changed the looks of all the characters. The president of Kid's WB said " it’s an homage to the legacy instead of a destruction of the legacy.” Yeah right...It's a disgrace to all the characters, including the one I like, Wile E. Coyote.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6989380/

It's not only cartoons that's changed, but also commericals. I've been going back to our VHS tapes converting them to DVD. Many tapes have old commericials on them, from companies that you never see advertise any more. All the candy and soft drink manufacturers like Reese's, Hersheys, Coke, Dr Pepper.... Toy manufacturers too. They all used to advertise and have enjoyable commericals worth watching. When is the last time you've seen a commerical for Reeses's or Dr. Pepper? 15 years ago? I think part of the problem is costs of advertising on TV.

Anyone remember the Tootsie Roll commerical with the owl?
-- "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll pop?"
-- "Let's find out"
-- "One, TWO....CRUNCH!"

[davideck]

The best was when Ray Rayner would "try" to make a project and it never looked like the example.

Thanks for that flashback! I had forgotten how he would just bust out laughing uncontrollably every now and then. He was also Bozo's sidekick - what was his character's name? I remember that he once told a joke on his morning show that he thought was so funny that he repeated it on Bozo's Circus.

Then he would show up in the afternoon for a show in a spaceship.
GREAT kids programming lost forever...
I wonder if WGN ever recorded that stuff.

[CuCuy]

I'm happy as long as Cartoon Network keeps showing "Justice League: Unlimited" and "The Batman". I won't be shedding any tears over the loss of "Pokemon" and "Yu-Gi-OH!" populating the afternoon airwaves. Besides, I stopped watching afternoon Kids WB when "Pinky and the Brain" and "Animaniacs" went off the air.

[stiltman]

I think y'all failed to mention one of the biggest if not the biggest cartoon producers

Hanna-Barbara

Abbott & Costello
Addams Family
The Amazing Chan & The Chan Clan
The Atom Ant Show
Augie Doggie & Doggie Daddy
The Banana Splits
Birdman
Butch Cassidy & The Sun Dance Kids
Captain Caveman & The Teen Angels
Casper & The Angels
The Cattanooga Cats
Challenge Of The Superfriends
Cow And Chicken
Dastardly & Muttley in Their Flying Machines
Dexter's Laboratory
Droopy Dawg
Dynomutt, Dog Wonder
The Fantastic Four
Frankenstein Jr. & The Impossibles
The Flintstones
The Flagstones
A Man Called Flintstone
The Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm Show
The Flintstones Comedy Hour
The Flintstones Comedy Show
The New Fred & Barney Show
The Flintstone Family Adventures
The Flintstone Kids
The Funky Phantom
Godzilla
Goober & The Ghost Chasers
The Adventures Of Gulliver
The Harlem Globtrotters
Help! It's The Hair Bear Bunch
The Herculoids
Hokey Wolf
Hong Kong Phooey
The Huckleberry Hound Show
Inch High, Private Eye
Jabberjaw
The Jetsons
Johnny Bravo
The Adventures Of Johnny Quest
Josie & The Pussycats
Josie & The Pussycats In Outer Space
Lippy The Lion & Hardy Har Har
Loopy De Loop
The Magilla Gorilla Show
The Mighty Mightor
Moby Dick
Moby Dick & Mighty Mightor
Mumbly
The Partridge Family: 2200 AD
The Perils Of Penelope Pitstop
The Peter Potamus Show
Pixie And Dixie
Powerpuff Girls
Quick Draw McGraw
Richie Rich
Ruff & Reddy
Samson And Goliath
Secret Squirrel
Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?
The New Scooby-Doo Movies
The Scooby-Doo/Dynomutt Show
Scooby's All-Star Laff-a-Lympics
The Scooby And Scrappy Doo
The New Scooby-Doo Show
The Richie Rich/Scooby Doo Show
The New Scooby and Scrappy Show
The New Scooby-Doo Mysteries
The 13 Ghosts Of Scooby-Doo
A Pup Named Scooby
The Smurfs (co with 2 other companies)
Snagglepuss
Snooper And Bladder
Space Ghost
Speed Buggy
Superfriends
These Are The Days
Tom & Jerry/Grape Ape Hour
Top Cat
Touche Turtle
The Wacky Races
Wait Till Your Father Gets Home
Wally Gator
Wheelie And The Chopper Bunch
Yakky Doodle
The Yogi Bear Show
Yogi's Gang

[NightWing]

Yep. There is nothing on TV any more. And what is left is junk.

[CuCuy]

I think y'all failed to mention one of the biggest if not the biggest cartoon producers

Hanna-Barbara
.......

No way could I forget HB. Anyone remember "Laff-a-lympics"? I loved that when I was a kid.

[NightWing]

Hum... No one mention Gigantor, Prince Planet.

And there was Jerry Mahoney and company of puppets.

[lordsmurf]

HB is owned by Time Warner, has been for decades.

[stiltman]

HB is owned by Time Warner, has been for decades.

Yeah thet also own the WB, so what's you point?

Look at the list, they're all pretty much top notch cartoons (except for powerpuff girls)

[lordsmurf]

They point was that the near-monopoly on toon ownership, as well as the methods to broadcast them, is what has helped kill the genre of afternoon toons. A few people have decided it was bad, so with the flick of a wrist, no more afternoon toons.

And when it comes to managing properties for release, WB is one of the worst offenders. Most of that list you just made will NEVER see the light of day on DVD release, nor did they get VHS releases. And fat chance on "old stuff with no interest" (as they would judge) ever being shown on tv, except for a few here and there once every 5 years on satellite-only networks, if even that much.

[Timoleon]

I grew up as a kid in the 1960's. As I recall, Saturday morning was nothing but wall-to-wall cartoons. Is this no longer the case?

Tim

[mazinz]

nor did they get VHS releases

Hey Lordsmurf, actually quite a number of those did get vhs releases (refering to the toons listed in Stiltmans list), but those tapes are rare in themselves and only available in the very early 80's. Even then it was like a "one off" only or best of tape. I guess it is with the pirates i shall stick, should i want a complete series of any of them.

[lordsmurf]

What few VHS releases most of these shows were from horrible prints. The laserdiscs were even worse in a few cases. It's sad when networks had better quality eps than releases did. And nothing was ever done complete either, just wimpy stuff here and there.