New VCD Format Holds up to 130 Minutes on 1 CD (lossless)

[Spainclaimfortruth]

@Kdiddy

cry baby... cry... Thief of processors... "Oh, it is just a CPU... I'm am not so bad... Just my ethical level is pretty null..."

@Sefy

come on man... admit your crime...

@everyone

merry Xmas and happy new year and bla, bla, bla...

[dumwaldo]

ok this is my results of a few tests.

SYSTEM:
P3 - 533 Mhz.
640 meg pc133 sdram
IBM 75GXP 75 gig hard drive (on ata 66 controller, not ata 100)
TMPGEnc - version beta 12h

Source Material:
715 meg (note all file sizes are as represented by windows explorer)
101 minutes and 48 seconds
480x352 DivX 4 (sorry i can't tell what version of 4 it is)
23.976 FPS
117.158 KB/s data rate (about 950 Kb/s)
Mpeg Layer 3 audio @ 96 Kb/s - 44.100 Hz. Stereo

CD media:
Circut City brand 700 MB 80 minute CDR (same thing i have used for my last 150 VCD's and every one plays in my apex ad1500)

First try, CVCD:
load my source and load the CVCD template from the link provided by Epi. i use the CVCD (NTSC).mcf template. 5-1/2 hours of encoding later i have a 922 meg file. being the eternal optimist that i am i attempt to burn this file to a vcd with nero. an error message telling me my source is to large to burn on the cd prevents me from getting this burned.

Second try, SeVCD:
same process, load the avi, load the template. this time i choose SeVCD for NTSC Basic.mcf template. 6 hours of encoding later i have a 1000 meg file. again i still try to burn it and again i am denied.

Third try, WaldoVCD:
this time i load the CVCD template and make a single change. i adjust the variable rate so that it may not exceede 950 Kb/s (the same bitrate as my source). 5-1/2 hours later i have a 788 meg file. thinking i have found sucess i load the clip into nero and burn it with no problems. first try to play is on my sony PCG-FX140 laptop computer that usually plays anything. no response from winDVD. second attempt to play was on my apex ad1500 player. load the disc and the player displays an incorrect play time (77:3 and refuses to play the disc.

Fourth try, VCD:
i split the avi file in 2 pieces and use the standard VCD template and everything works. i may have to change cd's while the cowardly lion cries but at least it plays.

i do not by any means claim that my experiences are the definitve source of info and welcome anybody to try their own tests and/or offer suggestions where i may have gone wrong. in my oppinion the CVCD does not live up to its claim of fitting 130 minutes on a single cd. i couldnt even get 102 minutes on one cd.

[dumwaldo]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-21 07:02:54, Spainclaimforlies wrote:
@Sefy

come on man... admit your crime...
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

if sefy did not have the high moral standard that he does you would have been banned already. the fact that you can still post is just testiment to sefy's high morals.

so come on man just admit you are wrong and it is quite possible for 2 people in seperate place on the earth to think to change 2 setting from the standard VCD template.

your continued failure to accept responsibility for making a false and slanderous statement just hurts your own level of already damaged credibility. in short simple words so you can understand, we all think you are dumb, you lie and wont say you lie.

so come on just admit that you and the CVCD format are a joke and neither one works as the name advertises.

[adam]

CVCD and SeVCD are not formats and neither are any other non-standard derivation of SVCD or VCD. We're talking about templates here, nothing more. Nobody stole anything because there is nothing to steal.

I don't think Sefy got the idea for his templates from CVCD, but even if he did who cares?

[Bud]

ENOUGH....ENOUGH.....ENOUGH.....

SYS ADMIN FOR VCDHELP.COM PLEASE STOP THIS STUFF AND GET ON WITH DEALING WITH THE PROBLEMS OF WORKING WITH VCD.......DELETE ALL POST FOR THIS TRASH...SAVE THE SERVER DISK SPACE FOR REAL WORKLD STUFF.....THANK YOU IN ADVANCE.

BUD

[Kdiddy]

"cry baby... cry..."

annnnnnnd exactly WHO was that came here "crying" about somebody "stealing" their CDVD format??..hmmmm hmmmmm

"Thief of processors... "Oh, it is just a CPU... I'm am not so bad... Just my ethical level is pretty null..."
"

LOL, is this the best your pathetic defense can get?? There ya go, keep stuffing pitiful vcdsp.com's reputation in the toilet. See unlike you, I know where I stand in this forum, some like me, some hate me, but difference is Im quite comfortable with that. Im not here to gain friends. O but Im sure all the crap a$$ "CDVDs" you are doing are all backups of DVDs that you purchased right??..riiiight, so please don't get into ethics with me. You want to call me a thief for keeping a processor that a company mistakenly sent to me, then a thief I am. Ive both done & been called much worst than that.

"come on man... admit your crime... "

No, admit your stupidity, and then go away. Which we know you will not do, because you trying to save face by just replying with nonsense to make everyone upset.

[Sefy]

dumwaldo, all VBR formats would work best from high quality source, using an already highly compressed DivX as source will not give you a more compressed file, so it's not a fair test to any of the Templates.

Adam, you should know me better then that, heck, don't you remember I even asked you to test it when you first told me it won't work ?

Spainclaimfortruth, you got no honour and respect, so i'm not giving you any, you are nothing but a little kid who think he knows everything, well, so far, your Template proved to be worse then them all, which I doubt you even thought of it.

[pinoy2201]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>

@Sefy

come on man... admit your crime...

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Spainclaimfortruth if your going to act this way get the out of this forum stay wth vcdsp since your sooo close to it...we dont need anybody saying that we are thiefs cuase no one stole anything actualy if you saying Sefy stoled it(he didnt)...you guys are the real theifs becuase you sttole that idea form the Double VCD you guys just renamed it....so stop and get out if your going to act this way!!!

to everyone Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and be Carefull

[SilverSurfer]

Hi to all.....
I read all comments now.
Sorry Guys, but what to hell are you doing here?????
You talk about Thieves, and Moral and so on....
Am i in a church??????
This is a Forum to help not to piss on each other,
so lets come down and start helping.
Perhaps me *lol*
This Cvcd (or xvcd or secvd or...) sounds good, if the quality really is near VCD.
But my Problem is, if I try to burn a 104 Min Clip with Nero it says that there is not enough space on my CD-R
(700 MB). Don`t tell me activate "Overburning"!! To what ?104 Min.? That couldn`t be the.
So pls tell me how to burn that (or even 130 Min) on a CD-R? I really don`t know how to do so PLEASE HELP!!!!
P.S.: Sorry about my English i hope you understand it.

[vitualis]

"New VCD format holds up to 130 minutes on 1 CD (lossless)"

1. It is hardly "new"
2. It is not a format
3. "Up to" is a completely meaningless term
4. It is not "lossless" by any means

CVCD or whatever you want to call it is just another variation of XVCD. The fact that it is similar to Sefy's template is completely coincidental. Talk of theft is ricidulous. Indeed it is somewhat ironic when it is considered which site has been guilty of copying and translating other people's guides without even the decency of asking for permission.

Regards.

[Dhruv]

Lets face it...its impossible to get 130 mins on 1 cd without losing quality, so if I were you I would just stick with SeVCD because that looks good and allows that little bit extra to fit on a cd.

[mtb_boy18]

I tested this CVCD tamplate and found that it did seem to maintain VCD comparable quality giving a much smaller file size. The problem is when you load the mpg in to Nero (turning off standard complience) the time still shows as VCD. I am guessing it has something to do with the VBR because all of my other XVCD's have always had an incorrect but relative time to the file size of the mpeg.

E.g. XVCD 90mins 800meg will load into Nero as 80mins of video

CVCD at VBR 120mins 800meg will load into Nero as 120mins video

please help...

[Dano]

Well here is the actual link to the specific area that describes (in broken English) how it's supposedly done.

If anyone has success, please post

http://world.altavista.com/sites/auen/pos/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=es_en&url=http%3A%2F%2...n%2Fvcdsp.html


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dano on 2001-12-22 07:33:28 ]</font>

[Dano]

I was looking over the specs on the XVCD page:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/xvcd.htm

According to the page, it is possible to go as low as 5MB/min. That sounds like 2 hours to me. But, I can't see how this can be done without a substantial loss in quality.

[ChickenMan]

This is some of my findings using the posted CVCD PAL Template.

I tried to convert my Unbreakable divx using the CVCD template and TMPGEnc 12a. However an error is reported saying the VBR of 112 is to high and can only be between 8 and 102 ! I had ver 2.01 on my computer as well at the time and it accepted it okay so I ran with that.

Results:

Unbreakable Divx PAL 106min with aspect ration of 2.3 to 1.

CVCD - took 1h 38m 37s to encode to a 635,311 kb file

Std VCD - took 3h 26m 20s to encode to a 1,089,436 kb file.

Findings:
The CVCD mpg file was 40% smaller than the standard VCD mpg and as a result was able to be burnt to a standard 74min CDR. This played fine on the PC with WinDVD with very little difference in Video picture but with not as clear audio compared to the std VCD. I played it on my Apex (Hiteker) AD600a (with latest firmware). It played okay for 10 min then the audio started stuttering and causing the pic to stop start as well.

The pic Unbreakable has no fast moving scenes at all and was letterbox format 2.3:1 aspect ratio, so large black bands top and bottom of the pic. These bands use up very little data when VBR is turned on (as in the CVCD template) and this would be the reasion the mpg file ends up a lot sameller. If the movie was 117min long, it would have just fitted to a 700meg/80min CD which is close to the quoted "can fit up to 120min movie to one CD"

I would suspect a full screen 4:3 fast moving movie would not get anywhere near this compression. I will confirm this at a later date.

Conclusion:

1. If your DVD Player supports the format, it can be a viable option.

2. Be prepared to accept lower Audio quality.

3. Dont expect to lend your movies to family or neighbours and for them to view them on their equipment.

Cheers,
CM

[ChickenMan]

I just encoded the Pod Race section of Star Wars - Phantom Menace from the PAL DVD VOB no 3. The clip was 12m 51s long and using TMPGenc 2.01 again, I expanded the pic to full screen and maintaining correct aspect ratio. I couldnt think of anything much faster and complex than that clip.

Results:

CVCD Template took 25m 23s and gave a 119,164kb MPG file.

Std VCD Template took 42m 50s and gave a 131,611kb MPG file.

Comments:

The CVCD template is certainly quick in encoding (not as quick as before) but as I predicted, there is very little to be gained in MPG file size over a standard VCD when encoding full screen and fast action.

Playback on the PC gave a noticably better (sharper and better contrast)picture with the standard VCD mpeg . I feel the Soften Block Noise turned on in the CVCD template contributed to this. Both still had some pixelation in the very fast & complex parts. Again sound quality was noticably worse in the CVCD.

Conclusion:

1. The CVCD format does not save any significant file size when the movie is full screen & fast action.

2. Sound quality is still poor.

3. Files created with the CVCD format are still non-standard VCD files (XVCD) and has DVD Player playback limitations.

Cheers,
CM

[KennyC]

Hi ChickenMan,

How's it going bud?

I've been doing a hell of a lot of testing lately using different templates and tweaks with TMPGEnc (now v2.5) and got some superb results with VCD, got it to 1600kbps and Nero would still accept as Standard compliant VCD, strange I know. Plays great in my XMS-950, but jerky in Omni 2100 and LG stand alone DVD players.

My main test DVD is the 1st 5 minutes of The Mummy Returns, there's alot of fighting with smallish fighters with flesh showing, it really shows the macroblocks with the different templates.

I'm settling for VCD 2.0 standard but CBR @ 1250kbps and Soften Block Noise @ 35. I find this is still Nero compliant and plays in most if not all DVD players.

The last thing I want to create is a VCD that only plays on my XMS-950, this would be a total waste of time.

Cheers.

[ChickenMan]

Hi KennyC m8,

Yep been good. yourself?

When I first started ripping DVD's to VCD some 18months ago using DVD2VCD Squeeezer v1.0 (anyone remember that ?) well the Panasonic Pluggin default settings were Bitrate 1600 & Audio 192. Thats what I originally used and as you said, Nero accepted them as std VCD and burnt them fine. Played on the PC fine until I got my VCD Adaptor for the PSX. They would not be recognised nor play! Then I realized my problem and never looked back. I still have one or 2 of them and they play great on my Hiteker 600.

There seems to be a lot of hype over this CVCD format, thought I would just do some testing for myself to "put it to bed" so to speak.

I'm staying with strickly VCD compliant specs and no Soften Block Noise, I feel it blurs the pic to much even at 35. If converting DivX files to VCD, then I turn it on.

See my post in TMPGEnc 2.5 thread as well.

Cheers,
ChickenMan

[Douglesh]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
I've been surfing around and I found this site that claims to have created a new VCD format</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

How is it a new format. If i make a non-standard TMPGenc template, does that mean i am making a new VCD format. NO

[Douglesh]

Can someone also explain to me how VBR 650, a tiny bitrate of 650 is loseless? you have got to hate those who go out of there way to bullshit just for attention , without using their brains (the starter of this thread)

[dandydon]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-15 19:17:51, pepehdez wrote:
I've crated a couple so far, out of movie trailers. They are very good, they play on my Apex AD600A and my PC.

Still I Can't open avisynth files with TMPGEnc. Please Help.

I Have the CVCD TMPGEnc Template, ask me if you want it.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>May I have a copy of your template please

[shochan]

If you use 320x240 as your resolution it comes out to be a little better for cvcd.

But I would have to disagree with alot of you on the whole "DVD quality" issue. Every time I rip a DVD It looks perfect I can pause it on high motion scenes and see no macroblocks or blurry motion sceens. The sound is superb even on my computer..... Then I encode it!!!

Spainclaimfortruth,

I can see where you are coming from. You feel that sefy has stolen the CVCD template and decided to change it a little to make it his, therefore steeling it. Well check this it it is rater interesting. Do you feel that little tickle at the bottom of your brain when you post? ITS CALLED STUPIDITY!!!! LEARN TO CONTROL IT!!!!

You know I find it kinda funny that all of a sudden this topic pops up and here you come like El Salvador Español.

Mi nombre es el salvador español, yo ha venido defender http://www.vcdsp.com . Usted tiene estola mi plantilla de los países CVCD y nombrado la SeVCD. ¡Prepárese para morir!

¡Consiga una vida!




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: shochan on 2001-12-29 07:59:18 ]</font>

[branch]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-20 17:16:28, Kdiddy wrote:
>"Right I just tried that encoding a bit (50 secs)
>When the framerate is set at 23.97 the file size is >8.728.580 bytes,
>When the framerate is set at 29.97 the file size is >8.708.100 bytes."

Well first, 50 secs is far from enough for testing purposes, you try at least a 30 min clip, secondly, 20KB is bascially the same size, when you are talking about files being 750+ MB...
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Ah.. "basically". Nonsense, a few seconds is enough, since your postulate was the exact same size.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
ok maybe not down to the byte..since you seem to "don't really care that the technicalities are
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

If you think 8.728.580 = 8.708.100 then you are one who don't care about technicalities.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
"....He was thinking that you would get a 750 MB to a say 595 MB difference in size, which U won't...
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

All of which is irrelevant. You are just trying to backpedal, doing what you acuse others of; ie trying to change the subject.. You postulated that FPS had nothing to do with filesize, I proved you wrong.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
<irrelevant stuff snipped>
If you had READ the whole post,
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I had - it was not relevant to what i said.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
So please if you nothing better to add to a dead arguement that even the original poster has given up on because he knows how fa off base he is, just leave it alone.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I did: I added a fact that proved you wrong. Might not be that revolutionary, but its a factiod for future days: FSP does affect file size.

Which, having read up on MPG, does seem to make sense. Previously I thought that mpg1 could only have a size of at most 352 x 288.
Turns out this is wrong, the syntax allows for 4095x4095 with 60 frames pr minutte. What most people think of when they say mpg1, is really a subset of mpg1 called "Constrained Parameters Bitstreams"

This limits the video to 396 macroblocks(101,376 pixels) if you have <= 25 fps and 330 macroblocks(84,480 pixels) from 25 to 30 fsp.

Therefore the framerate is related to the amount of information to incode. If its pal there is more information to encode, if its NTSC its less. Which is also borne out by the fact the PAL mpg was larger than the NTSC one, when the only thing changed was the framerate.

[vhelp]

kennyc,

hello...

I've ben reading about your problem with the movie "The Mummy Returns"
and I understand your situation with the blocks!!!! ...cause I hate them as well.
But, sometimes, you gotta come to a decision and accept that fact that sometimes,
just sometimes, certain scenes just can't be fixed, unless you up the bitrate, which
if I understand you correctly, you're trying your ut-most to avoid. Thats' good.

Anyhows, I wanted to let you know that I now have "The Mummy Returns" and
also, would like to. . .well, this thread is just way too long for me and I hate
to press those "next page" links. So, I'm gonna start another thread and hope
that you visit it - for you sanity as well. Besides, a break (or end) is needed
from all the yelling going on in the prev. pages on this thread. Anywas, I'll
start the post... look for something that starts out:

"VCD - can we minimize most blocks in "The Mummy Returns" opening scene?

See you there!

-vhelp


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: vhelp on 2002-01-04 20:21:10 ]</font>

[bbb]

vhelp,

I would like to test my abilities in eliminating the blocks in your Mummy Returns.

Perhaps you can trim the scene (into a 15-20 second clip)and post it somewhere as a divx file or high bitrate mpeg.

I will post my results as i am sure others will too, with detailed procedures.

[Kdiddy]

"Ah.. "basically". Nonsense, a few seconds is enough, since your postulate was the exact same size. "

My postualate was in his reference to the filesize range difference 750 MB to 595 MB, not 780 to 785...please dont try to get semantical with me, "a big dick to you is little dick to me", so take it to the mirror if you won't debate semantics....only thing you have proven is your effectiveness to beat a dead horse...

"Therefore the framerate is related to the amount of information to incode"

Again,, no a couple seconds is not long enough for VBR, however, at CBR, the filesizes will be exactly the same. Simple math. amount of INFORMATION PER FRAME changes, however bitrate is the same.

[Juggernaut]

i'm new to this, but i did try out once after i download the template. encode a DIVX movie 1.30hr lenght long. and got it at 670mb only. but b4 i burn into vcd, it seems to me that u can only play it without dragging frame to frame.
i tried to burn it to vcd with nero and the timeline only show less than 80mins! but of coz the warning pops out telling it's invalid file.
but still it is still be able to burn as DURATION show the time length of the movie.

after burning i tried on play the vcd on WMP althot it plays but still, u cannot drag to other frames, if not it will not play until u restart from beginning.
so i tried on my standalone vcdplayer, it plays the movie but freezing/jerking screen & sound.

maybe it really can holds up to 130mins i think, but my vcdplayer cant play it smoothly,

[AllwaysConfused]

i am new, and just today, tmpgenc, was giving me trouble about opening avi files and such, so i changed the priority level and its working fine, also i have been reading posts about CVCD, and i am confused ( such is the name) at what this is, is it just a higher quality of VCD, that allows more mins to be stored on a normal 80 min cd. how does it do this, and what do i need to do, to record in this format?

[oflahsp]

Could I ask a really fundamental question. Early on in this conversation I picked up a template and used it to create an mpeg file using TMPGenc. When I tried to create a VCD using WinOnCD it refused due to an invalid MUX rate. How to you create VCD's from these files? I am a novice.

[Kdiddy]

First, I would suggest using Nero...but offhand sounds like WinonCD expects typical standard VCD mux rate....and since this template does not stick to those standards, WinonCD rejected it as an invalid VCD.