Panasonic DMR-ES10 is awsome

[technoid]

I've had the new DMR-ES10 for about a month now and in a word this machine is awsome What perhaps has impressed me the most so far is the recording quality. In EP (4H) mode. Off air cable recordings are easily comparable to S-VHS recordings in quality. When I view EP recordings using my NEC projector, at 60" image size, the picture still stands up well,with great sharpness and definition. I would highly recommend this unit for anyone seeking optimum picture quality in EP

Technoid

[handyguy]

Ep is 6 hours, LP is 4 hours, lp is 500 lines resolution in that new machine. Does it have a tvguide on screen?

[lordsmurf]

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265528&highlight=panasonic+es10+review

The machine is another Panasonic lemon.

It's only good for pass-through on filters. Recording quality is still blocky and grainy. The LP is 720x480, but it's just blocks at twice the res now.

Panasonic stubbornly refuses to fix their noisy encoder. Either that or they do not know how. Seeing how their now-obsolete MPEG software was a joke, I'd wager on the latter.

[technoid]

Ep is 6 hours, LP is 4 hours, lp is 500 lines resolution in that new machine. Does it have a tvguide on screen?

Opps, my mistake, I meant in 4 hour mode (LP)
No the unit does not have tvguide, but it does have
vcrplus

[technoid]

Hmm... you dont seem to like any of the Panasonics?
As for refering to th ES10 as a lemon I couldnt disagree more

As I mentioned earlier Ive watched off air cable recordings recorded in LP mode using my NEC video projector. The images look neither grainy or blocky?

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265528&highlight=panasonic+es10+re view

The machine is another Panasonic lemon.

It's only good for pass-through on filters. Recording quality is still blocky and grainy. The LP is 720x480, but it's just blocks at twice the res now.

Panasonic stubbornly refuses to fix their noisy encoder. Either that or they do not know how. Seeing how their now-obsolete MPEG software was a joke, I'd wager on the latter.

[linetest]

I bought one also. I haven't used it enough yet to make a full evaluation for myself, but so far, so good. It's nice and quiet. Both the drive mechanism, and the fact it's fan-less. It's the only one I see in the stores with no fan. But, it hasn't gotten hot either.
Anyway, just getting started with the machine and have a few weeks in the return window in case it doesn't work out. I also bought an iLo 04 that's sitting in the box (wanted to grab one new in box before they disappeared). In case the Panasonic goes back, I'll have the "old" iLo still inside the 90 day return window. So, I'm covered.

[gshelley61]

I've had one for about a month. The 4 hour mode with the full D1 res (704x480) is terrible with high action scenes. This has already been hashed through in previous postings and threads. There's no way to maintain this type of resolution beyond about 2.5 hours within 4.4GB without all kinds of artifacts and blocking occuring due to the low bitrate. Panasonic has not invented anything magical or new to counteract this fact.

As for the recordings at the 1 hour and 2 hour settings... they looked OK. The two hour setting (and beyond) has noticeable macroblocking, just like every other Panasonic DVD recorder. They've finally added DVD-RW recording, which is definitely welcome. They're apparently still using the same encoding chips as always - the setup menu is still basically the same as in their previous models.

There are other DVD recorders that produce better MPEG2 video. JVC, Pioneer, even Lite-On and ILO. Probably Sony and Toshiba, as well.

[technoid]

I've had one for about a month. The 4 hour mode with the full D1 res (704x480) is terrible with high action scenes. This has already been hashed through in previous postings and threads.

>Ive currently only used my machine for recording some documentary >series such as American Justice and Cold Case Files. These aren't 'high >action' programs but they look great in LP mode

There's no way to maintain this type of resolution beyond about 2.5 hours within 4.4GB without all kinds of artifacts and blocking occuring due to the low bitrate. Panasonic has not invented anything magical or new to counteract this fact.

>I suspect low to moderate action material (the bulk of the stuff that I >would record in LP mode) would
>not require a high bit rate to capture successfully

As for the recordings at the 1 hour and 2 hour settings... they looked OK. The two hour setting (and beyond) has noticeable macroblocking, just like every other Panasonic DVD recorder. They've finally added DVD-RW recording, which is definitely welcome. They're apparently still using the same encoding chips as always - the setup menu is still basically the same as in their previous models.

>I think Id rather have a higher resolution image with some macro blocks >occuring, only after 2.5 hours, and only during high action scenes than >have a low resolution image all the time in LP.

>I soon will be doing some testing of my own to see if and when a >problem occurs.

[lordsmurf]

>I think Id rather have a higher resolution image with some macro blocks >occuring, only after 2.5 hours, and only during high action scenes than >have a low resolution image all the time in LP.

I think you're confused.

Almost ALL sources, be it satellite, VHS, broadcast antenna, cable, etc ... NONE OF THOSE are anywhere near "higher resolution" of 720x480. Far below it. In fact VHS is below Half D1 352x480, and most cable/broadcasts are AT it. Some satellite may be slightly above it, but not by much, and still not 720.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/understandsource.htm#analogsource

Macroblocks?
Just assume go back to kinescopes before blocky video.

[eddie1]

i have just bought this machine as a update to my dmr55 it has improved since the old model

I dont use the tuner i import through the av2 socket which means i can use the video filter and if i record of a digital source i can get away with recording at lp although there are a few blocks its nothing compared to how the dmr 55 was in this mode

this machine has rebuilt my thoughts on the panny recorders

[justinluck]

So, what type of benefits do the filters on the Panasonic help in image quality?

[eddie1]

I not a Technical wiz with these things so all i can say is it seems to give a smoother picture and it has definetly reduced by a lot the amount of blocks or artifacts when recording over 2 hours. b4 i couldnt record a movie of sky on 4hours cause all you could see was blocks and grain but now im more than happy

[axlish]

I have had this model for over a month now and I am very pleased with it.

However, I would not suggest recording over the 2 hour mode, unless it is just a few minutes over. I have done a few VHS transfers that timed in around 2 hours 15 minutes, and they looked great.

3 hours was watchable, but not pleasant. 4 hours +, forget about it.

I don't like to put much over an hour onto one disc anyway, so this unit suits me fine. I also find that the menus are much better than the old Panasonic standard.

[trhouse]

A number of tests were done on this model on this thread,

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=263530&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

including LP tests. The files are .VOB's. They can play on Windows Media player if they are downloaded and renamed .mpg or they can be use to create a dvd for playback on dvd players.

One area in which the LP mode does well is with cartoons. The ES10 does not drop to 352 by 480 resolution but stays with 704 by 480. Since cartoons have relatively less actual motion, large blocks of fixed colors, and less detail, it seems to work well. There is a four second clip at the bottom of page 2 named lp4sec.vob showing a clip from "ICE AGE".

[technoid]

Hi Trhouse...
Thanks for the link and sample files.When I get home this evening I'll check them out. From reading through your posts I can see that you really know your stuff Last night I tried recording three straight hours of progamming from an analoge cable signal.I then watched the last ten minutes looking for macroblocks or mosquito noise. Although I can tell the recording is not as good as an SP recording would have been, I cant say I saw much of anything in the way macroblocks or other signs of image breakup. The image was quite sharp and well defined. The video material did not contain fast action scenes but did have some moderate action in it,and no, it was not a cartoon (note: I have a very clean cable signal) I was wondering if you had any suggestions or comments? I will next try dubing some old VHS material and see how it holds up in LP. Thanks for your time.

Technoid

A number of tests were done on this model on this thread,

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=263530&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

including LP tests. The files are .VOB's. They can play on Windows Media player if they are downloaded and renamed .mpg or they can be use to create a dvd for playback on dvd players.

One area in which the LP mode does well is with cartoons. The ES10 does not drop to 352 by 480 resolution but stays with 704 by 480. Since cartoons have relatively less actual motion, large blocks of fixed colors, and less detail, it seems to work well. There is a four second clip at the bottom of page 2 named lp4sec.vob showing a clip from "ICE AGE".

[VidTech565]

I've had the new DMR-ES10 for about a month now and in a word this machine is awsome What perhaps has impressed me the most so far is the recording quality. In EP (4H) mode. Off air cable recordings are easily comparable to S-VHS recordings in quality. When I view EP recordings using my NEC projector, at 60" image size, the picture still stands up well,with great sharpness and definition. I would highly recommend this unit for anyone seeking optimum picture quality in EP

Technoid

I have also had this machine for about one
month. And in that time, I have made some
very impressive recording. I've stuck with
the 2 hour recording mode since that's
what I use the most. It's been a VERY
high quality ALL the time. No macroblocks,
No video noise of any kind. I think a lot

of people get highly confused as to what to
feed these machines in terms of an input
signal. I know by experimntation that
these DVD recorders require a very specific
amplitude of video, or they will produce "some"
video inconsistencies. However, I must say, that
you have to try mighty hard to make the
output result look bad.

Just for fits and giggles I hooked the
DMR-ES10 to my waveform monitors and
Vector scope, and I must say, that it produced
waveforms so good, that I have signal Gens
which dont even come up to this standard.
I am tempted to use it as a sig gen !!

To wrap it all up, this is by far one of the
best DVD recorders I have ever had the pleasure
of testing and owning. I used to think that
the Pioneer models used to rank the highest, but
this is not the case any more. I have no need
for an HD model, as I do all my editing on the
computer so an HD version of this machine is
not in my future. Personally I think that anyone
who edits on anything but a computer is a few
cards short of a full deck. But thats just me.
Save you're money on those Ilo's and JVC's of
the DVD recorder world. You just wont get
Quality on those cheaper models.

Viddy...

[DVWannaB]

Viddy,

Seems you are using your opinions as fact.

1) I edit from time to time on my HD JVC and Pioneer and attain frame accurate cuts every time. It is not necessary or convenient for me to record to DVD-RW all the time. Nor is it required for me to edit and author DVD on computer all the time. Sometimes the provided menu on the recorder works for me just fine. OPINION #1 debunked.

2) While agree that JVC has a checkered recent history with manufacturing, they still make quality products. I own a JVC MH30s, a Pioneer 520 and Panny DRM-ES10 and the JVC records the best overall picture in my estimation. I too, like many posters above have owned the Panny for about 1 month now and it is good within the 2 hour mode. After 2 hours it just does not match up to the JVC or Pioneer. So that does that make Panny better than those 2 models? It all depends on your usage and needs I imagine. Also, I dont see how you can call the JVC and "those iLo" models as cheap. If you mean cheaply made, I can go with that (as far as JVC is concerned). But I have seen countless posts here where folks using iLo and JVC getting good return on their purchase. I wont even get into the Pannys introduction of blocks and noise after the 2.25 hour mark. Finally, I dont use the Panny to record anymore, just for its input filtering and pass-through of my old VHS tapes. OPIONION #2 highly subjective & therefore DEBUNKED!!!

Where are the facts to support your opinions, based on your final conclusions?

[gshelley61]

I own two JVC's, a Panasonic ES10 (and have owned several other Panasonics), a Lite-On All Write, and a couple of Pioneer units. The JVC produces the smoothest, cleanest MPEG2 video of the bunch... from both analog and DV inputs. The Lite-On and Pioneer recorders are very nearly as good. The Pioneer machines have a number of input video adjustments that make them particularly attractive compared to the Lite-On or JVC units. The Panasonic units I've owned have always produced noisier MPEG2 with more grain and macroblocks than the others mentioned.

I have a Toshiba RD-XS32 and a Sony RDR-GX300 on the way, and will report what I find on those two.

[sync]

I think a lot
of people get highly confused as to what to
feed these machines in terms of an input
signal. I know by experimntation that
these DVD recorders require a very specific
amplitude of video, or they will produce "some"
video inconsistencies.

How does one go about feeding a recorder 'a very specific
amplitude of video'?

[handyguy]

I'd rather try a DVR from the cable company. $9.95 per month. The price of the better dvd recorders fall about that much per month anyway.

[samijubal]

I have a Toshiba RD-XS32 and a Sony RDR-GX300 on the way, and will report what I find on those two.

I would be very interested in your findings on the Toshiba. The Sony doesn't interest me much since it isn't RAM compatible, I need a recorder that does RAM. Everyone knows what I thought of the JVC, I don't like the new Panasonics either and would never touch anything Samsung makes, so as far as I know that only leaves Toshiba. Will you be doing any satellite recordings with the Toshiba?

[gshelley61]

I had a Toshiba D-KR2 arrive today (it's an RD-XS32 without a hard drive). It looks very well made... sturdy. Really comprehensive owners manual, too. I'll check it out tonight and post some preliminary impressions.

[gshelley61]

So far, the Toshiba is a bit confusing. It does have some input black level adjustments, but they are labeled 1, 2, 3, and 4. Mode 1 darkens the black level a little bit, but nowhere near enough to compensate for 7.5 IRE level sources like NTSC VHS. Like several other recorders, it appears that the Toshiba is a 0 IRE input / 0 IRE output machine. There does not seem to be any +7.5 IRE setup on the output side, either. Recorded image quality seems OK, perhaps slightly softer than the original source.

I'll have to spend some more time with this unit before I can draw any real conclusions.

[vhelp]

TGIF everyone

(be nice to each other, everyone)

I've had my iLO and Pioneer 220-S for about a good 3 months now.
I'm pretty happy w/ both units, though (IMO) I feel that the 220-S
is the better model for most quick projects. I stated "quick" because
I do quicky record/transfers of my noisy antenna source for when I'm
in a hurry or am lazy, or just need to record a given show (they are
mostly 1 hr long anyways) and the high bitrate that the 220-S unit
uses is pretty good, (for noisy sources like my antenna) under these
quicky situations. Anyways.

VidTech565 said that he was basing most of his comments (pros/cons)
on 2 hours modes because that is what he is mainly using his unit for.

As LS as been noting to most of us here, he appreciates the 2 hr
quality, but after that, things beging to go down hill. But, I'm
sure that other units (brand/make/model - whatever) suffer from this
to some degree or another. There just is not enough (honest) tests
going around, though in the beginning (few months ago) there were
some going on.. but they stopped.

Anyways.

Hay, ..shouldn't we be comparing diff brand make/model units against a
per/hr bases ??
.
I think the arguments would be more cleaner.. don't you all think.

different kinds of sources ...

There is a lot of talk about how the iLO does a great job on VHS
sources. I believe it. Though, I could do w/out the black level
being a bit on the high side, with this unit. But, then, VHS is pretty
high anyways. But, it does do a good job on VHS. (so does the 220-S)
But, for it's price range and ease of use, the iLO can be a good contender.
Plus, add to that, it is hackable via firmware (give thanks to Guterman)

But, just as VidTech565 said, quality is dependant upon the source type
and its quality level.
.
The first priority with any testing of *anything* is the source and its
quality level. Then, comes the devices that are thrown in between. And
then, comes the editing afterwards (if any) and then finally the encoding.

The next test (hopefully in a TEST forum) would be best done with
closer matching references. Since we all compare per/hr recordings, this
is a good start.

Do a head-to-head Syncrynize of an A / B test scenario:

* 2 hr -------- vs. --- 2 hr
* black level - vs. --- black level
* bitrate ----- vs. --- bitrate

Then, upload an .M2V mpeg file for analizing.

But, instead of beating on each recorder weaknesses, let something *good*
come out of all this, like a Grade List for each recorder unit.

@ gshelley61

My friend.., any way you can add in a Sharp VCR to your setup of tests ??

I'd do this, but I can't seem to get my hands on one - rAtS.

I was thinking, a Sharp VCR. I theorize that it's output is in sync
with the Pioneer 220-S units. So far, (based on my observations) the
Sharp devices have proven a perfect match in captured output.

new FORUM suggestion ...

We ought ta have a TEST FORUM for testing all kinds of theories;
ideas; devices; etc etc - but, I don't know how this would pass
to mods here, though I'm not a mod) Instead, all these tests are
scattered throughout the forums and things do tend to get messy
and hard to find
We need a place where we all can gather and sort out the pros
and cons, etc. Its just a suggestion

-vhelp 3366

[samijubal]

Why a Sharp VCR? Last I knew Sharp was using Orion VCRs, there are definitely better VCRs.

[vhelp]

>> Why a Sharp VCR? ...

I've seen nothing but excellent (subjective OP) results when the
device in-between is a brand stamped by Sharp. I feel that this
brand is utilizing the best output signal reproduction (couple
that with the capture device (in this case, a dvd recorder) in
all such samples I've seen to date.

That's why

-vhelp 3367

[tac7]

>>"I have a Toshiba RD-XS32 and a Sony RDR-GX300 on the way, and will report what I find on those two."<<

Yes, please give us some comments on the Sony RDR-GX300 once you have had a chance to check it out - especially if it has any input / output adjustment capabilities like the Pioneer, and how its picture quality compares to some other brands (Pioneer, JVC, Panasonic, LiteOn...).
I haven't been able to find any evaluation on Sony DVD recorders, so this will be VERY interesting! --Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

Why a Sharp VCR? Last I knew Sharp was using Orion VCRs, there are definitely better VCRs.

Sharp makes their own VCRs. At least all of the ones I have from the late 90s are that way. They have a very nice picture quality and track quite well ... for VHS, at least. No contest against a S-VHS unit.

[samijubal]

Anything from the 90s doesn't even resemble today's VCRs, completely different machines.

[lordsmurf]

Anything from the 90s doesn't even resemble today's VCRs, completely different machines.

This looks like a SHARP to me:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006FXF5/102-3661174-3268136?v=glance
Not a re-brand.

I'd also like to add that I'm still using both of mine for recording and playing to this day. A SHARP unit is pretty good for a VHS only unit.