quick capture card question

[mike909]

I have begun my research into a tuner/capture card... and this is hopefully a quick question. I see all the different options for hardware encoding (mpeg1/2/4) but if I want to capture to an uncompressed avi can I do this with any card? I.e. just use Vdub and the like? If I plan to edit the video that I capture I obviously don't want it to be mpeg2, but If I don't plan to edit and just want to immediately author (a tv show for example) then mpeg2 would be fine. So...again...the question is, do I need to look for a card that captures both avi and mpeg, or do all cards have the ability to capture uncompressed avi through software?

EDIT: Ive been over at the "Caputre Cards" list reading...wow, theirs a lot of cards to choose from.

[edDV]

Cards mostly split by format. Uncompressed won't necessarily get you the best quality. Everything is a tradeoff.

Uncompressed captures need fast disk systems, create huge files and require multiple steps (hours) to edit process and encode. Are you sure you need to do this?

Simple edits can be done in MPeg2 (like commercial removal). Special software is needed for frame accuracy during editing.

DV format maintains very high quality @ 13GB/hr and has frame accurate editing.

MJPeg, Huffyuv, etc are partially compressed editable formats.

[mike909]

I will be using Premier Pro for editing, and am aware of the simple editing that can be done to mpeg's, but would like the option to capture avi for more in-depth editing. Yes, DV-AVI would be fine I guess...it seems more common among capture cards than uncompressed. Come to think of it, your probably correct that DV-AVI would be better than uncompressed for a couple reasons. I have disk space/machine specs to handle the capture just fine.

Cards mostly split by format.

So this is to say, that the card will either capture as dv-avi, OR mpeg....not both?

[edDV]

I will be using Premier Pro for editing, and am aware of the simple editing that can be done to mpeg's, but would like the option to capture avi for more in-depth editing. Yes, DV-AVI would be fine I guess...it seems more common among capture cards than uncompressed. Come to think of it, your probably correct that DV-AVI would be better than uncompressed for a couple reasons. I have disk space/machine specs to handle the capture just fine.

Cards mostly split by format.

So this is to say, that the card will either capture as dv-avi, OR mpeg....not both?

Broad classifications

- Direct capture (e.g. Bt878 class cards)

- Direct or hardware assisted compression (e.g. ATI AIW series)

- MPeg realtime encode (e.g. Hauppauge PVR series)

- DV realtime encode (e.g. Canopus ADVC series)

- MJPEG realtime encode (e.g. Pinnacle-Miro DC series)

- SDI import of uncompressed 4:2:2 from broadcast servers and recorders. Premiere Pro supports several realtime SDI hardware cards
http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/6cards.html

Two step realtime processes can be done as well (hardware + CPU)

- ATI AIW combo hardware and software MPeg encoding.

- ADVC (hardware DV encoder) -> Mainconcept realtime software MPeg2 encoder*

- Analog to SDI converter -> realtime software encoder

- Direct capture -> realtime software encoder (very fast CPU required)

* or Microsoft wmv, Divx, etc.

[mike909]

Ok, well I clearly have more reading to do. (guess it's not a 'quick capture card question'). I did not want to get an mpeg2 only card, because I won't be able to edit old wedding video's (without converting then re-encoding) and I didn't want to get a dv-avi only capture device because if I wanted to record a tv show I wouldn't be able to simply hardware encode and burn to dvd (i would have to record the large avi and then encode); BUT if I had to choose, I would rather have the dv-avi capture card and deal with having to allways encode. (better than having an mpeg encoded file that I wouldn't be able to ever edit to the fullest extent quality wise). Looks like I can allways do realtime software assisted encoding of dv-avi anyways (with Mainconcept or the like). I will get back to reading up, and look into some of your suggestions under the classifications. If you don't mind I will post back with more questions if I have them. Thanks for the informed response.

[edDV]

Ok, well I clearly have more reading to do. (guess it's not a 'quick capture card question'). I did not want to get an mpeg2 only card, because I won't be able to edit old wedding video's (without converting then re-encoding) and I didn't want to get a dv-avi only capture device because if I wanted to record a tv show I wouldn't be able to simply hardware encode and burn to dvd (i would have to record the large avi and then encode); BUT if I had to choose, I would rather have the dv-avi capture card and deal with having to allways encode. (better than having an mpeg encoded file that I wouldn't be able to ever edit to the fullest extent quality wise). Looks like I can allways do realtime software assisted encoding of dv-avi anyways (with Mainconcept or the like). I will get back to reading up, and look into some of your suggestions under the classifications. If you don't mind I will post back with more questions if I have them. Thanks for the informed response.

Is your camcorder MiniDV or Digital8?
If so does it have the "Analog Pass Through" feature?
Then you can capture to DV format that way.
If not you will need a DV capture device.

How fast is your computer?
You will need at least a 2.4GHz Celeron, 256-512MB RAM and one of the following software apps to do realtime MPeg2 software recording.
A faster computer is better.

ULead Video Studio 8 or 9
ULead DVD MovieFactory
http://www.ulead.com/
Mainconcept Encoder 1.4.2
http://www.mainconcept.com/mpeg_encoder.shtml

All use realtime configurations of the Mainconcept encoder.
Premiere also uses a version of Mainconcept's MPeg encoder but it doesn't have the realtime mode. MC are offering a discount to Premiere Pro users for upgrade to the full version.

Those are the ones that I know will work for realtime MPeg2 encoding from the DV (IEEE-1394) input. My most consistant results have been with Video Studio 8. I'm having some issues specific to the Canopus ADVC (or similar) with the full Mainconcept Encoder capture function. It wants to control the ADVC with machine control commands as if it were a camcorder and has problems at the end of the capture waiting for machine control dialog. I've found workarounds but they are time consuming.

[mike909]

Is your camcorder MiniDV or Digital8?
If so does it have the "Analog Pass Through" feature?
Then you can capture to DV format that way.
If not you will need a DV capture device.

I have a MiniDV Camcorder, but I have been reading that results from the pass-through method are sub-par; also, their is no way to tune with that (I was hoping to find a card w/ a built-in tuner to record TV) I know I could just tune with a VCR and use the passthrough, but that takes away scheduling/pvr functionality.

How fast is your computer?

I updated my specs, but anyways Ive got a amd64 3500+ with a gig of dual channel memory, and a Raid-0 array of two seagate 160GB w/ NCQ. I don't think software encoding would be an issue (and I don't mind that I can't do anything else with the comp at that time, because I don't like doing multiple things at a time anyways) I have upgraded to the full version of the Mainconcept Encoder through Premier Pro; though I have not done any real-time encoding with it yet, so not sure how well it works. I took a look at the canopus 100 you speak of, and it seemed great, except it didn't have a built-in TV tuner. So...I will keep looking for a similiar product to that with a tv-tuner built in. I have not yet had a chance (since my previous post) to do further research, but I will today. Their are a lot of capture devices out there, I'm sure I will find one that meets my needs; I just hope it's a reputable card...like the Canopus ADVC (I trust that company).

[edDV]

...
I have a MiniDV Camcorder, but I have been reading that results from the pass-through method are sub-par; also, their is no way to tune with that (I was hoping to find a card w/ a built-in tuner to record TV) I know I could just tune with a VCR and use the passthrough, but that takes away scheduling/pvr functionality.

I have the ATI All-In-Wonder and Pinnacle PCTV but tuner performance with those is only medium quality but the ATI is fine for utility computer recording. My more serious recording is done directly from my cablebox (Motorola HDTV DCT-6200) to S-Video through the Canopus ADVC-100 (set for 7.5IRE NTSC input). The Canopus produces a in-spec zero IRE DV format that can be saved as DV or realtime encoded with the ULead Video Studio 8 (containing ULead's version of the Mainconcept realtime MPeg2 encoder). The same could be done with camcorder pass though but further processing of 7.5 IRE black to 0 IRE for DV and DVD would need to be done.

...

How fast is your computer?

I updated my specs, but anyways Ive got a amd64 3500+ with a gig of dual channel memory, and a Raid-0 array of two seagate 160GB w/ NCQ. I don't think software encoding would be an issue (and I don't mind that I can't do anything else with the comp at that time, because I don't like doing multiple things at a time anyways) I have upgraded to the full version of the Mainconcept Encoder through Premier Pro; though I have not done any real-time encoding with it yet, so not sure how well it works.

The encoder in Premiere Pro doesn't support realtime encoding to MPeg2. The link above allows upgrade to the standalone MC encoder for $49. Demo is free to try before you buy. Use the demo until you get your process tested.

I'm struggling to make the MCE work because of DV control bugs during camcorder pass through or ADVC use. Otherwise it works fine but until I find a workaround or MC adds a "No Device Control" option, this isn't ready for prime time use.

...
I took a look at the canopus 100 you speak of, and it seemed great, except it didn't have a built-in TV tuner. So...I will keep looking for a similiar product to that with a tv-tuner built in. I have not yet had a chance (since my previous post) to do further research, but I will today. Their are a lot of capture devices out there, I'm sure I will find one that meets my needs; I just hope it's a reputable card...like the Canopus ADVC (I trust that company).

I only know of a MAC specific DV transcoder with a tuner built in.
An internal tuner is an option. The one I want to test is the new ATI TV Wonder Elite with the 3D comb filter. http://www.ati.com/products/tvwonderelite/index.html. Another option is the All-In-Wonder series that has MPeg2 encoding hardware support. There are also external USB2 tuners.

PS: I use a dedicated machine for capture (2.4GHz Celeron + 4 HDD). It can simultaneosly record off the ATI AIW (using ATI MMC software or Beyond TV) and DV from the ADVC. Real time MPeg2 takes all of the capacity of the 2.4 GHz CPU so I may add a Hauppauge PVR-250 to this mix to allow dual recording. The hard disks are all standard EIDE ATA 100. No RAID is needed.

The ADVC approach has the additional benefit that I can record to any of 4 machines with a IEEE-1394 port. I also use it as the analog import and monitor output for Premiere or Vegas while editing.

[mike909]

Thanks Ed,
I looked into it a bit further, and it seems a DV-AVI capture device with a built in tuner is not a common thing (like you pointed out). I was thinking to go with an AIW because it would give me freedom (can capture mpeg2 OR avi w/ help from software) Of course, those AIW's are graphics cards too, which I don't need and feel like it's kind of a waste of $. So I took a look at the TV Wonder Elite which looks kind of like the happauge pvr line...I just wish that either the tv wonder elite, or the happauge pvr's had the option to record as DV (or some sort of less compressed format) as well as having the onboard hardware mpeg2 encoder. That would be perfect. After looking into this a bit more, I think I am asking too much. It looks like I am in the minority by asking for software encoding (which leaves my options open). In the end, I will probably be best suited going with one of the AIW cards. Just sucks paying for a graphics card a couple months after purchasing my geforce6600gt sli board. As I am not pressed to make my decision rite away, I will continue to research the topic. Thanks for all your info so far...turned a week of research into a day or two. That's why I love this site....allways people here to help.
BTW: should probably change the topic here to "Not-so"quick capture card question. Don't know what I was thinking when I made that title....nothing's ever as clear as you think it will be.

EDIT: On a side note, just wondering, why do you use a monitor output from premier/vegas...do you find that it looks any better than the reference monitor, or does it perform better (my premier kind of lags on the monitor window on large projects/effects). Or do you just like to get a better idea of what it will look like on the TV (without having to burn a disk) I personally use the s-video output from my vid card to a tv for preview purposes.

[edDV]

...
So I took a look at the TV Wonder Elite which looks kind of like the happauge pvr line...I just wish that either the tv wonder elite, or the happauge pvr's had the option to record as DV (or some sort of less compressed format) as well as having the onboard hardware mpeg2 encoder.

The ATI TV Wonder Elite is not a hardware MPeg2 encoder. It's just a tuner. AIW series provides hardware some assist + software to encode. The PVR-250/350 do most of the work in hardware.

EDIT: On a side note, just wondering, why do you use a monitor output from premier/vegas...do you find that it looks any better than the reference monitor, or does it perform better (my premier kind of lags on the monitor window on large projects/effects). Or do you just like to get a better idea of what it will look like on the TV (without having to burn a disk) I personally use the s-video output from my vid card to a tv for preview purposes.

Neither the LCD nor S-Video from the graphics card are adequate for serious monitoring. You need a TV monitor calibrated to the timeline color bar. Adobe assumes you will use your camcorder's DV hardware codec for monitoring (i.e. DV in S-Video or composite out to monitor).

[mike909]

The ATI TV Wonder Elite is not a hardware MPeg2 encoder. It's just a tuner.

Are you sure?
http://www.ati.com/products/tvwonderelite/index.html
According to that it's a tv tuner with hardware mpeg encoding. "delivers full hardware MPEG-2 compression"
Also check it out in the capture cards list https://www.videohelp.com/capturecards.php?CaptureCardRead=578#comments
Unless I'm reading it wrong...it looks to me like a direct competitor to the Happague Pvr series cards (150/250/350...etc.)

[edDV]

The ATI TV Wonder Elite is not a hardware MPeg2 encoder. It's just a tuner.

Are you sure?
http://www.ati.com/products/tvwonderelite/index.html
According to that it's a tv tuner with hardware mpeg encoding. "delivers full hardware MPEG-2 compression"
Also check it out in the capture cards list https://www.videohelp.com/capturecards.php?CaptureCardRead=578#comments
Unless I'm reading it wrong...it looks to me like a direct competitor to the Happague Pvr series cards (150/250/350...etc.)

Well maybe. The website has changed since I last looked. I'll search for independent reviews this evening.

[mike909]

I read some reviews myself in an attempt to find out if this card is able to capture avi (or less compressed format than mpeg2) but doesn't look good. Would be nice if I could find a card like this w/ hardware mpeg2 encoding as an option and not a mandatory encode. I'l keep looking.

EDIT: seems many have the same complaint about this card...software support. Doesn't work with MMC, but does work with BeyondTV. I havn't used BTV, so don't know how granular you can get with tv tune'd caputers, However I did read that you can capture as raw avi through vdub using the cards svideo input.