PAL -> NTSC Problems!

[Mickey79]

Ave,

Ok this is not working out..
Ref: https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=260896&highlight=

I've tried everything that i've learnt from my last thread regarding this topic, and it still doesn't seem to be working out.

I used TmpgEnc Xpress to encode my PAL 25.00 fps DivX AVI to PAL 25.00 fps MPEG2 M2V file. I encoded the audio to AC3 ... leaving it's framerate alone, no changes.

Then i used DGPulldown, as told, and ran the following conversion:
25 -> 29.97

It gave me a converted M2V file.

The audio & video are now completely out of sync!
From what i was told, DGPulldown "Won't" change the length, but will only change the framerate internally. But that's not true.. it did actually change the length of the video alongwith the framerate, and thus the video & audio are out of sync. The audio is running at 25 fps and the video is running at 23.976 fps.

Did i do something wrong? Any advice?
Thanks,
Mickey

[guns1inger]

Did i do something wrong?

You wasted a lot of time when all you really need to do is buy a cheap multi-format player. Way easier, and will give you better quality. I have also read the dgpulldown theory, even though it doesn't affect me (PAL land is pretty much format agnostic) and I can't see how it can work without sync problems. The number of people who have sync problems after trying seems to bare out the fact that it doesn't work most of the time. It seems to be like the header patch trick. For some it is a solution, for many it is a frustrating experience. Regardless, almost nobody comes out of it with a quality conversion. If the audio remains in sync, the video is jerking and stutters, especially during motion scenes. A cheap player might set you back $40 - 60, which pays itself off after a couple of movies by the hours it has saved you. It's your time - what's it worth.

If you must do a software format conversion, look at Procoder as a solution. It seems to have the highest quality output for this type of work.

[Mickey79]

Ave,

I guess you're right about the DGPulldown part...
As for a player solution.. i do have a Cheap DVD player which plays PAL. The problem is, niether the very expensive Panasonic Home Theater with 5.1 Surround that i have plays PAL, nor does the DVD Player built into my car, Nor the portable one plays PAL. With all the travelling we do with kids... and all the money we have spent into the Home Theater experience, portable DVD players and everything... it's worth it to do the format conversion and have an NTSC disc playable everywhere.

Coming back to ProCoder... let me research on that, never heard of it before.

Thanks,
Mickey

[manono]

As much as I respect guns1inger and his knowledge, since he's never used DGPulldown himself, he doesn't know what he's talking about. You do it right, you get good results. If your audio isn't in synch, then obviously you did something wrong, like maybe convert the video to NTSC length from the original PAL. If the video comes out the same length as when you started and it's now 720x480, and you're using the original audio (with the proper delay, if any), then you're in business. I've used DGPulldown probably a couple of dozen times flagging original framerates other than 23.976fps (20, 22, 24.975, 25, and others) to output 29.97fps, and not once -- not once -- has the audio gone out of synch.

If the audio isn't in synch, it's definitely not the fault of DGPulldown, as it changes neither the audio nor the video length.

I don't use TMPGEnc, so I have no idea of the correct settings. I do know, though, that plenty of people have used it with TMPGEnc successfully. You might be better off feeding TMPGEnc with an AviSynth script file with the resize already taken care of.

It seems to be like the header patch trick. For some it is a solution, for many it is a frustrating experience.

Don't even mention the two of them in the same breath.

And Procoder isn't the answer. It'll give you either blended or duplicate added frames to go from 25fps to 29.97fps, a major waste of bits, and a possible source of jerky playback and poor quality video.

Regardless, almost nobody comes out of it with a quality conversion. If the audio remains in sync, the video is jerking and stutters, especially during motion scenes.

Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up out of thin air? If it comes out of DGPulldown playing jerky, it played jerky before DGPulldown. No way is DGPulldown responsible for jerky playback.

I hope that someone will come along and lay out the TMPGEnc settings for you.

[Baldrick]

are you just playing the m2v? or have you tried author it and play with a software dvd player?

I have tried to convert some 23.976 to 23.967 with pal resolution using tmpgenc.Then changed to 25fps with dgpulldown and it worked fine on a pioneer dvd player.

[johns0]

If the avi has bad frames then the audio will go out of sync,the only time you see that it when its after encoding or saving the wav file.

[guns1inger]

All you need to do is read through the hundreds (nay, thousands) of posts here from people trying to do format conversions using software solutions to see that is it difficult to get food result, regardless of method used.

If you have found a method that works, great. If it was that fool proof and worked every time, then we wouldn't keep getting 4 or 5 format conversion posts a week with pretty much the same problems. Maybe you could write the definitive guide so those who do need to convert formats will have a better run at it ? (I am being serious, not having a go at you)

[johns0]

All you need to do is read through the hundreds (nay, thousands) of posts here from people trying to do format conversions using software solutions to see that is it difficult to get food result, regardless of method used.

I once encoded a chicken,just kidding.

[guns1inger]

Stupid tablet keyboard. Testing this tablet PC before sending it out into the field. Haven't quite got all the bugs out yet.

[johns0]

I make mistakes like that,just couldnt resist.

[Abond]

All you need to do is read through the hundreds (nay, thousands) of posts here from people trying to do format conversions using software solutions to see that is it difficult to get food result, regardless of method used.

If you have found a method that works, great. If it was that fool proof and worked every time, then we wouldn't keep getting 4 or 5 format conversion posts a week with pretty much the same problems. Maybe you could write the definitive guide so those who do need to convert formats will have a better run at it ? (I am being serious, not having a go at you)

The problem is that they don't know what they are doing.

[guns1inger]

Hence my suggestion for the definative guide. Hell, I might need it some day !

[manono]

Hi-

All you need to do is read through the hundreds (nay, thousands) of posts here from people trying to do format conversions using software solutions to see that is it difficult to get food result, regardless of method used.

I've seen them also, and frankly I don't understand why all the problems (unless it's Abond's comment ). I've converted from PAL to NTSC using the traditional method of slowing the video to 23.976fps, and then running the tradional Pulldown, and also adjusting the audio length, and I've done a bunch using the DGPulldown method, both with no problems at all. However, I've only used CCE, and AviSynth for this purpose. Many people use different encoders and different methods of getting the video into the encoder.

Also, I've done this mostly with DVD sources. It's been awhile since I've done an AVI conversion. However, I think that many of the audio synch problems result from having VBR MP3 in the AVI source. In my opinion it should be demuxed properly to begin with, and converted to AC3 outside of the encoder, and then remuxed later on.

Maybe you could write the definitive guide so those who do need to convert formats will have a better run at it ? (I am being serious, not having a go at you)

Well, I've written several online guides, and could easily write one for CCE/AviSynth/PAL2NTSC/DGPulldown. But it wouldn't do any good for Mickey79's particular problem, or for others that don't use this particular method. Maybe the fellow that wrote this guide could be prevailed upon to expand his guide and detail the specific TMPGEnc encoder settings:

http://www.johnisme.com/avi1.shtml

[johns0]

I updated that guide a couple weeks ago with a section on how to encode with tmpgenc just for that purpose,its on a link on that page.

[fritzi93]

Perhaps the OP should try this instead:

[Deleted]

This method has been reliable for me. Nice concise guide, too. It would be wise to scan for bad frames first.

[EDIT] Hey, where did it go? The link isn't working. Okay, essentally the guide shows how to do the framerate conversion in VirtualDub and BeSweet. Then you convert to MPEG.

[johns0]

Is this the link you are talking about?

[Mickey79]

are you just playing the m2v? or have you tried author it and play with a software dvd player?

I have tried to convert some 23.976 to 23.967 with pal resolution using tmpgenc.Then changed to 25fps with dgpulldown and it worked fine on a pioneer dvd player.

It WORKS!! Oh my gosh it works!! I can't believe it.
I'm not sure if everything happened the way you said it would, and i'm refering to manono here... but it works.

This is what happened.
I took my PAL AVI And i encoded it to M2V using TMPGENC Xpress as PAL, Progressive, 25.00 fps. I did not convert it to NTSC, i didn't change resolution to NTSC.. nothing.. i left it as it is, as if i was going to make a PAL DVD.
Then i used DGPulldown and ran the convert with the setting:
25.00 -> 29.970
I got a new M2V file which was now actually showing up as 23.976 fps (in DVD Architect).

Now over here i was told to use this new M2V file with my AC3 Audio from the original PAL AVI. But there was 4 minutes of difference between both. And also i have to state, the time length between the original M2V file had changed AFTER DGPulldown, unlike it has been said that it doesn't change. Well, it changed. The encoded M2V i got from TmpgEnc Xpress and the converted M2V i got from DGPulldown were NOT of the same length. Which is why the Audio was out of Sync... the 4 minute difference made the whole difference. I thought it was not going to work, but then i looked at something and did something.
I saw that in DVD Architect, the new converted M2V which i got from DGPulldown was showing up as 23.976 and it was different in length from the M2V i had BEFORE DGPulldown. Clearly, my Audio was still 25.00 fps and of the length of the M2V BEFORE DGPulldown (25.00 fps). So i used BeSweetGUI to convert my 25.00 fps AC3 to 23.976 AC3 using it's provided preset. AND VOILA!!!!! Gosh! I put the new 23.976 AC3 with my converted M2V i got from DGPulldown, and they were COMPLETELY IN SYNC!!

I use DVD Architect for all my DVD Authoring, and that's where i load my Video & Audio... it gives me complete information on the files and i'm able to preview in real time before Authoring.
Anyhow.. it works! I can't thank all of you guys enough...

And just for clarity sake, i'm gonna list my procedure here step by step just so you can understand what all i was talking about up there and maybe someone can get some help out of it.

TmpgEnc Xpress:
Encode PAL AVI to PAL M2V (25.00 fps, Progressive)

BeSweetGUI
Encode PAL AVI to AC3 (25.00 fps)

DGPulldown:
Convert PAL M2V to NTSC M2V (25.00 -> 29.970)

BeSweetGUI
ReEncode PAL AC3 to NTSC AC3 (25.00 -> 23.976)

Load up in DVD Architect, Author, Burn!!!

Ave,
Mickey

[Abond]

So you say they are in synch in the preview of Architect? How it is when play the authored vobs? And how is the synch when play the DVD? As your files are still PAL resolution I think you could be disapointed about not correct playback in the systems of yours that do not support PAL playback.
I hope I am wrong.

[fritzi93]

Is this the link you are talking about?

Yeah, for some reason I wasn't getting there before. Same link.

[Mickey79]

So you say they are in synch in the preview of Architect? How it is when play the authored vobs? And how is the synch when play the DVD? As your files are still PAL resolution I think you could be disapointed about not correct playback in the systems of yours that do not support PAL playback.
I hope I am wrong.

Ave,

On the computer everything is playing great... no problems at all. I haven't burnt and tried on my DVD Player though, and although i hope you're wrong, you're probably right... i didn't think about the Resolution factor, and i think it's going to come into picture.

Although this conversion/encoding would be wasted if it doesn't play on my DVD player, i think i'll still be able to redo everything and get it to work. From what i understand, in TmpgEnc Xpress, if i don't select the predefined PAL or NTSC template, i can select the MPEG Output from the template and put in my own custom settings.. there i think should be able to put in PAL resolution and do everything else the same. Then it should work.

I'll burn the disc, play it on my DVD, and report back to you.

But just for Knowledge sake, as i would probably require it to fix this situation, can you or someone tell me what resolutions are supported by PAL and what resolutions are supported by NTSC to be played properly in a DVD player?

Thanks,
Mickey

[Abond]

<<<<<<<<< left top "What is" -> "DVD". Click on DVD-Video Technical Info. Everything is there.

Although this conversion/encoding would be wasted if it doesn't play on my DVD player, i think i'll still be able to redo everything and get it to work. From what i understand, in TmpgEnc Xpress, if i don't select the predefined PAL or NTSC template, i can select the MPEG Output from the template and put in my own custom settings.. there i think should be able to put in PAL resolution and do everything else the same. Then it should work.

Yes in Xpress you select MPEG Output. No you do not put PAL resolution, you put NTSC resolution, keeping the PAL framerate (25 fps). Then it should work .

[manono]

Hi-

The encoded M2V i got from TmpgEnc Xpress and the converted M2V i got from DGPulldown were NOT of the same length.

Yes they were. I don't know how many times I have to say it, DGPulldown does not change the length of the video. Have you ever done a standard pulldown of 23.976fps progressive to 29.97fps output? The video's length doesn't change there either, and this is exactly the same principle. The underlying base framerate and frame count doesn't change. So, how are you getting the video's length after DGPulldown? From DVD Architect? Doesn't it strike you as being even slightly suspicious that it's reading the .m2v as 23.976fps? So, either it came out of the encoder already changed to 23.976fps, you used the wrong DGPulldown settings, or (this is my choice) DVD Architect reencodes, transcodes, or simply slows it to 23.976fps.

NTSC DVD has to be 720x480, 704x480, or (what's the other one?) 352x480.

[manono]

I updated that guide a couple weeks ago with a section on how to encode with tmpgenc just for that purpose,its on a link on that page.

So it is, johns0. I completely missed the encoding link just below the title. My apologies.

[Mickey79]

Yes they were. I don't know how many times I have to say it, DGPulldown does not change the length of the video. Have you ever done a standard pulldown of 23.976fps progressive to 29.97fps output? The video's length doesn't change there either, and this is exactly the same principle. The underlying base framerate and frame count doesn't change. So, how are you getting the video's length after DGPulldown? From DVD Architect? Doesn't it strike you as being even slightly suspicious that it's reading the .m2v as 23.976fps? So, either it came out of the encoder already changed to 23.976fps, you used the wrong DGPulldown settings, or (this is my choice) DVD Architect reencodes, transcodes, or simply slows it to 23.976fps.

NTSC DVD has to be 720x480, 704x480, or (what's the other one?) 352x480.

Ave,

Manono, trust me i'm not trying to contest what you have said... i wouldn't have come this far if it hadn't been for the information you gave me... i would still be stuck with a PAL video. I'm still trying to learn this all and obviously you have a lot more knowledge regarding this then i do.
However, what i am trying to do is state facts as to what i did and what i got.

Regarding the time length, again, i already did specify exactly all that i did including all my settings... i encoded the PAL AVI using TMPGEnc Xpress' predefined PAL template into a PAL M2V ... i didn't change or fiddle with any setting at all. It calculated the bitrate itself as it usually does.

Once i had the PAL M2V i ran it through DGPulldown, leaving everything as it is, just clicking on the 25 -> 29.970 option.

The M2V i got, i inserted it in a DVD Architect project. Now when i say that the time length it's showing me of the M2V file.. this is before any transcoding, encoding or authoring in DVD Architect... i just loaded it in DVD Architect and it shows you the properties of the file. The time is 4 minutes different then the M2V BEFORE DGPulldown.

Yes it is definately suspicious that in DGPulldown i ran a 25 -> 29.970 but in DVD Architect's properties window it's showing me 23.976 for that M2V ... but by going at DVD Architect's claim, and converting my audio to 23.976, the audio was in complete sync... whereas leaving it to 25.00 as what you said i should, it was out of sync.

Again, i'm not contesting you, i'm just trying to learn.

Thanks a ton again,
Mickey

PS : I still have to burn and test on my DVD player, will do this afternoon.

[Mickey79]

So you say they are in synch in the preview of Architect? How it is when play the authored vobs? And how is the synch when play the DVD? As your files are still PAL resolution I think you could be disapointed about not correct playback in the systems of yours that do not support PAL playback.
I hope I am wrong.

Ave,

IT WORKS! It actually worked in my DVD player, perfectly fine! The sound was awesome... everything was in Sync, it played smooth and fine just like any NTSC video... so i guess you were wrong ;0) .. i didn't really expect it to play on my DVD player because i thought the resolution would come into picture, but i guess that wasn't the case.

The only thing i wasn't very happy with was Quality of the Picture. It seemed just a tad bit choppy... not as clear as i would have wanted it to be. Although there can be many different reasons to it, i think the primary reason was Resolution. I put 2 videos on the DVD.. one video was resolution 352 X 288 ... i think scaling it up to 720 X 576 made it choppy. The other video was however 640 X 420 and scaling it up to 720 X 576 again shouldn't have mattered as much, but i think it did.

Just for clarity/quality of picture sake, i think i'm going to do this all over again, and this time i will use the MPEG Output option in TMPGEnc Xpress, instead of what i did.

This is what i think i will do...

With my 352 X 288, i will encode it to 25.00 fps using TMPGEnc Xpress' MPEG Output option, and define the resolution as 352 X 240 (Which is NTSC Compatible).

With my 640 X 420, i will encode it to 25.00 fps using TMPGEnc Xpress' MPEG Output option, and define the resolution as 704 X 480 (Which is NTSC Compatible).

Both will give me a PAL Output with NTSC Resolutions.

I will then use DGPulldown as i did before, on both, with setting 25 -> 29.970

Audio will be encoded to 23.976 AC3 using BeSweetGUI.

I'll try and Load these up in TmpgEnc DVD Author first, and see if it will take it. If it doesn't, i'll try DVD Architect.

There's only one thing which i'm still not clear about. Progressive or Interlace. I chose Progressive for both my encodings in TmpgEnc Xpress... but i have a Standard Definition TV... should i choose Interlace? And again, i'm not that well versed with everything to look at the picture in VirtualDubMod and tell whether it's Interlace or Progressive.. as someone suggested... Is there some software i can use which can tell me if the original MPEG/AVI is Interlace or Progressive?

Thanks,
Mickey