DVD media quality & burn speed questions (TY, TDK, Prodi

[Ronaldus]

Here are some questions I couldn't find answered in these various forums. I searched on various keywords and media codes before posting as I don't want to be repetitious. If I've missed the answers somewhere, please feel free to scold me nicely and point me to the appropriate thread.

1. Do people frequently see small specks and scratches near the edge of Taiyo Yuden media (such as YUDEN000T02 and TYG02)? After rave reviews, I bought a few TY (Fuji) packs a few months apart and every time the majority of discs have specks/defects near the outer quarter inch of the disc. They look like bits of dust and dirt, but they do not come off with compressed air or a Q-tip. Since I like to fill my discs, I end up burning into the speckled area and I can see visible shadows by some of the speckles, but the data always verifies OK.

2. Should I worry about small specks on the surface or even light scratches considering the burns always turn out OK (it's a Pioneer drive)? Are there any good web sites with descriptions about error correction vs. media flaw size? There are lots of media related sites, but I couldn't find any saying how big a flaw has to be to overcome the error correction. I recently burned a disc with a long, shallow scratch that afterwards showed a big hair-like shadow, but the data read back OK. The error correction seems very robust, but I don't know where to draw the line. I worry I may be unwise to use speckled or lightly scratched discs, so I wanted some opinions. Unfortunately I do not have a Kprobe capable drive.

3. Do people think TTG02 is equal in quality to TTG01 and TTH01? (This question is especially for Lord Smurf.) On the one hand I believe some people have said CMC makes lower quality media, but also that CMC makes these TTG0x/TTH0x discs and they are fine. In other words, are people saying CMC should be avoided except for their TDK media codes? (In stores I often have the choice between TTG02 or ProdiscF01, or paying more for MXLRG03 or speckle-ridden TYG02. I'm trying to decide if the latter are worth paying more for, even if I always get specks on my TY media.)

4. The media forum here has several negative comments about ProdiscF01 media, but Lord Smurf lists Prodisc as 2nd class media and I have had no problems with ProdiscF01. Does anyone know if the occasional negative comments were due to people using inkjet printable Prodisc so I don't need to be concerned?

The ProdiscF01 media comments I refer to are here:
https://www.videohelp.com/dvdmedia.php?selectmedia=2273#comments

My old post is here (asking the same question in many more words):
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1221705#1221705

5. If burn quality/shelf life is my primary concern, is burning all media types (from 2x to 8x) at 2x a good idea? Some players I've tried have playback issues with media burned above 2x, and I was under the impression slower speeds create more accurate burns in the dye. However, I've also heard media is optimized for a particular speed, so is burning 8x ProdiscF01, TTG02, MXLRG03 or TYG02 at 2x worse than burning at 4x or 8x? (Worse being more PI/PO errors and potentially shorter shelf life.)

In my media quest, all I care about is getting good quality media that is not likely to rot. I've had Princo and Optodisc degrade, but no problems on anything else. I've learned from comments in the media forum to avoid certain types, so I've come away thinking that the following media codes I've encountered are all OK (I've ranked them starting with the "best"):

MXLRG03
MXLRG01
TYG02 (good other than the specks at the edge)
YUDEN000T02 (good other than the specks at the edge)

RITEKG03
RITEKG04
RICOHJPNR01
RITEKR03

TDKG02000000
TTG01
TTG02
TTH01
PRODISCF01

Thanks.

[HatchetMan]

My latest batch of Fuji branded TY also have specs. But, I have not yet noticed any playback issues, but I also have not watched every second of every disc. I was wondering if it was from the Fuji printing not being completely dry when they were packaged, of if it was some kind of overspray.

Anyone having any problems with their speckled Fuji branded TY discs?

[lordsmurf]

1. Yes, I've seen the TY DVD+R scratches. Blame this on crappy TY spindles. I would not use them if they have "shadows" as that means data is not being written properly.

2. Most of the time, spots on media is from people not using clean discs. It often results in bad spots on a disc.

3. Do not concern yourself with which real estate a company has rented. CMC, TDK, and MCC media, though made in the same geographic location, are not the same media. TDK and MCC are absolutely better than CMC media. I would suggest MCC and MXL media as some of the best (though always check your media, or at least spot-check the spindle, never assume any media will be perfect all the time in all spindles, everybody makes some degree of duds).

4. Most negative PRODISC comments come from burner issues, or the inkjet issues, not the media itself. All things considered, PRODISC is some of the better media available, especially given it's price. Though not as perfect as others.

5. Yes. Both are true. For best results, use good media at it's rated speed. Should the media not react so hot to it's rated speed, sometimes lowering it by one notch will work better. That's a workaround for lesser media, not something you should have to do all the time.

And lastly, I would avoid RITEK media and be wary of RICOHJPN media (not all of them are good, some slightly better, some slightly worse). Your "name brand" (non-bulk) releases of these media are usually the better ones, for one reason or another (regarding RICOHJPN).

[joeg04]

I've had Princo and Optodisc degrade, but no problems on anything else.

Were the degrading Optodiscs white inkjet printable ones? I try to find out, if especially white top disks have such problems.

[Gen-An]

1. Do people frequently see small specks and scratches near the edge of Taiyo Yuden media (such as YUDEN000T02 and TYG02)? After rave reviews, I bought a few TY (Fuji) packs a few months apart and every time the majority of discs have specks/defects near the outer quarter inch of the disc. They look like bits of dust and dirt, but they do not come off with compressed air or a Q-tip. Since I like to fill my discs, I end up burning into the speckled area and I can see visible shadows by some of the speckles, but the data always verifies OK.

I have only seen this with Fujifilm-branded TY discs, not TDK or Sony-branded ones, or unbranded OEM TY discs. Fuji doesn't seem to be handling them well or something.

[steve2713]

3. Do people think TTG02 is equal in quality to TTG01 and TTH01? (This question is especially for Lord Smurf.) On the one hand I believe some people have said CMC makes lower quality media, but also that CMC makes these TTG0x/TTH0x discs and they are fine. In other words, are people saying CMC should be avoided except for their TDK media codes? (In stores I often have the choice between TTG02 or ProdiscF01, or paying more for MXLRG03 or speckle-ridden TYG02. I'm trying to decide if the latter are worth paying more for, even if I always get specks on my TY media.)
Thanks.

My CMC media has ALWAYS burned better than my TDK media. And I've burned well over 500 CMC discs. They have much lower PI/PO errors and always play fine. I've had a few TDK discs skip near the edge from their rise in PI/PO errors near the edge of the discs.

Regarding TY and spots, I've got a few hundred of the Fuji branded TY discs and I've not come across this problem, not yet anyway. I've heard of others with this problem though, including Fuji branded TY discs.

[joeg04]

I've had a few TDK discs skip near the edge from their rise in PI/PO errors near the edge of the discs.

Were these white inkjet printable ones?

[steve2713]

No, they were TDK branded with the 'frosted' silver tops, your typical retail discs.

[Ronaldus]

I'll break my follow-ups into 3 messages. First, I'll start with my first question about Taiyo Yuden media and specks/scratches near the edge.

Lord Smurf, HatchetMan, and Gen-An thanks for confirming that TY discs often do have specks near the edge. I have only gotten TY discs under the Fuji brand, so perhaps I've been blaming TY for quality control problems when it is in fact the way Fuji handles TY's discs afterwards. However, I rarely saw speck problems on Fuji branded 1x RITEKG03 and 8x ProdiscF01.

At least now I know I wasn't going crazy when I kept seeing specks on so many TY discs in every Fuji spindle. I guess when people talk about TY quality they mean the disc itself and its dye - not how someone packages them later on the spindle which apparently does something bad to the edges. I would expect lots of scratches near the edge if it were a machine handling issue, but they are usually a fairly dense patch of small speckles near the edge around most of the disc and occasionally there are small scratches too. My curiosity would love to know how Fuji or TY manages to get specks on so many of them and why they follow a pattern too... typically the top and bottom of the spindle are the worst (the specks sometimes go in a full inch from the edge) and as I work my way to the middle there are only specks near the outer 1/8" or less, then there are maybe a dozen near-perfect ones near the middle, and as I work my way to the bottom the radius of specks grows again. The top and bottom discs are almost always the worst. Since this may be a Fuji specific problem I'll call these Fuji's TY to not confuse them with other TY.

Do people still use these Fuji's TY discs with specks that intrude into the recorded area as long as they are very small specks (i.e. not large enough to cast burn shadows) or do people recommend against using any discs with these small specks? I'd only come away with maybe 25% of the average Fuji TY spindle if I required them to be mostly speck free. It almost seems that if I'm going to use Fuji TY that I have to be willing to burn through some of the specks or find another maker of TY (unfortunately none are 40c per disc and as readily available as Fuji).

Hypothetically speaking, if you were given the choice between using a TY disc to capacity (roughly 4470 MB) with small specks intruding 1/4" into the recordable area near the edge vs. using a speck-free ProdiscF01 or TDK/TTG disc, which would you trust your data to?

I'm debating whether I should go through the few TY spindles I bought, pull out the worst speckled discs and try to exchange them this week while the Made in Japan Fuji TY media is on sale. I'm trying to decide where to draw the line on the specks because if I try to return TY discs with any specks I'd be returning most of them. Until I hear differently to my question above, I'm going to assume that TY discs with some specks near the edge are preferable (for longevity/reliability) to most other speck-free media.

[Ronaldus]

Lord Smurf (and anyone else interested), I have some followups. I'm sorry for the length, but it's hard to describe these issues quickly.

2. Before burning, I always clean each disc with a Q-tip and then compressed air, so any specks on the disc are due to the way it was manufactured. Fuji TY wins the most specks per spindle award hands-down, but I've seen a few speckly Fuji ProdiscF01 and TDK/TTG discs. When I used RITEKG03 and G04 (I stopped last year when people started complaining about G04) they were mostly speck-free, so Ritek used to be my favorite.

The point of my question about specks is I'm trying to learn how to judge by sight when a disc has too many/too large specks and the disc should be tossed. I've done a few experiments, including burning through some really large flaws and when I run DVD Info Pro's surface scan the discs always come up error-free. In fact, I have yet to see DVD Info Pro report an error on any disc, so I wonder if that test is useful or just a placebo. I could never tell anything useful from the speed test either as each type of media has roughly the same graph.

Do you know of any web sites which correlate the size/number of defects on a disc with how much bad data the error correction can correct? I'd love to find a web site with some pictures showing what defects are within vs. beyond the capability of the error correction.

3. Thanks for the confirmation about TDK media. It sounds like I should consider all CMC-made TDKG02000000, TTG01, TTG02, TTH01 (and whatever media codes come next) of equal quality even though your web page does not specifically list each media code variation used by TDK.

4. I'm glad to hear that ProdiscF01 is not (yet) something that I should avoid since it is common in Made in Taiwan Fuji 8x -Rs.

5. I haven't had any failures burning media at the maximum rated speed the few times I tried. However, one of my old players somtimes has trouble playing any media burned above 2x. Speed is not an issue to me so I've been burning everything at 2x (2.4x for +) no matter what speed media I use (except 1x which I'm all out of). I want to make sure that burning 4x or 8x media at 2x is not unwise. Specifically, I heard that the dye is optimized for a power level near the middle of the expected burn range which would be 4x for 8x media. I want to make sure that by burning 4x or 8x media at 2x that I'm not unknowingly reducing the quality of the burn and not increasing the PI/PO error level (which I can't measure on my Pioneer drive).

I've always had this notion (maybe incorrect) that slower burns are better because the disc is spinning slower and the laser does not have to be at as high a power level, so it seems that the dye burns should be more precise and circular the slower the burn speed. The bottomline is I wanted to explain why I choose to burn at 2x and see if anyone had any substantive reasons why the burns would be better quality at higher speeds.

I feel like I'm going to have to break down and buy a Kprobe capable drive to satisfy myself. I haven't researched Kprobe, but my memory is it for Lite-On only. I've heard good things about the NEC 52xx series, so I'd be more inclined to buy a NEC over Lite-On if NEC supported Kprobe.

Finally, I only use name-brand media (exclusively Fuji, Imation, Maxell, or TDK), so I hope the fact the the RITEKR03 were Maxell 8x +R media and the RICOHJPNR01 discs were Fuji/Imation 4x +R media means I shouldn't worry. I have almost never had media fail during burning nor fail when I byte-compare the burned data to the source files afterwards. I don't know if that proves all the name-brand media I've tried is good. My real concern is reliability and shelf life which is hard to determine. If Ritek and Ricoh nowadays are more likely to have a short shelf life than the speckle-ridden Fuji TY discs, then I'd switch. I'm hoping anyone who feels I'm buying poor media or picking the wrong burn speed will let me know the error of my ways.

I try to keep up with discussions on new media, but it can get overwhelming (as I'm sure Lord Smurf knows) because media quality keeps changing. What I find sadly absent in most media discussions and in the media comment forum is any mention of how many specks and scratches most discs by a particular manufacturer have. I sometimes think I'm the only person who inspects my discs for defects using a Q-tip and compressed air before burning, and I'm never sure if (a) I'm overly cautious and fussy about specks, (b) most people don't bother to inspect their discs for specks, (c) I have bad luck getting specklier discs than most people, or some other explanation. All I know is I worry a lot about specks and nobody else seems to mention them (except when I ask).

Thanks so much for the help!

[Ronaldus]

joeg04,

The few Optodiscs I had degrade (long ago) were silver topped 1x Comp USA ones. The Princo ones were 1x white topped discs some of which I burned at 2x (before I knew better). Most of the Princo 1x that I burned at 2x died within a few months, but most of the ones burned at 1x are still alive. However, it was not a 100% rule as a couple of the burned at 2x ones are still alive and a couple of the burned at 1x ones degraded. I haven't checked them recently, but what I learned from this is not to keep important data on Optodisc, Princo, or Primeon (VDSPSAB01) media. I'm trying to stick with name-brand media like what I mentioned in my posts above hoping that will help avoid any other discs degrading in the future.

[steve2713]

Ronaldus, the NEC 35xx series of burners now supports PI/PO error scanning with Nero CD/DVD Speed and DVDInfoPro (the Kprobe program only works with Liteon drives).

I've also had Princo and Older -R Optodisc media create unreadable portions of disc over a period of time, discs that burned well and were readable at the time of burning. Oddly, the majority of my Princo discs have held up fine, although all of my older -R Optodisc media seems to have read issues, with many of them completely unreadable at this point. I've come to dislike Optodisc for obvious reasons, although I've recently used their 4x and 8x OR4 and OR8 discs and they seem to be very good discs. Time will tell but it looks like they've improved their +R media at least, as they have excellent PI/PO numbers and perfect transfer rate tests, and they play fine. I don't want to touch their -R media, though...

[lordsmurf]

If something is important, I would not use a disc that is dirty AT ALL unless the scratches (which is what you see on the TY discs) were beyond where I'd be writing data. These Fuji TY 50-count spindles are crap, they allow for disc movement inside. Discs touch on the edges from being allowed to move too much. There is not enough stacking pressure, via padding hubs, to keep the discs compressed at the hub and therefore unmoveable. I'm not fond of the larger TDK spindles either (really wide designed, often found on inkjet discs), for the same reason.

All the TY DVD+R discs I used were for non-essential backups of discs and excess computer files. They would not be good enough for masters. My tests also showed they would read, but I probably had less micro-scratches on mine, as there were no "shadows" in the dye, therefore data was written. Sounds like yours were worse, I'd not use them at all had they affected the dye writing.

Your notion that "slower is better" is incorrect. It's an urban myth, proliferated by crappy media that makes it seem true, but really isn't. If you DVD player is choking on a certain media, it's more a statement about the reflectivity of the media. I would suggest AZO-based dyes for players like that (MCC,PRODISC discs).

PI/PIF/PO/etc scans are not all that important. It can answer (sometimes) "why" a disc is bad, but aside from the techno-geeks in certain forums online, nobody cares. There are plenty of ways to learn "if" a disc is bad (Nero CD-DVD Speed), and that's the most important one, software-wise. Don't get sucked into that hole, it's really unneeded.

[steve2713]

PI/PIF/PO/etc scans are not all that important. It can answer (sometimes) "why" a disc is bad, but aside from the techno-geeks in certain forums online, nobody cares.

Don't pretend to speak for anyone besides yourself when you claim that 'nobody cares'. You don't care, and I don't care that you don't, no need to pretend that 'you' equals everyone else. If you care to know about DVD burn quality, PI/PO tests can tell what no other testing can.

[Ronaldus]

Thanks for the replies, Lord Smurf and Steve2713.

It helps to know Lord Smurf's opinions on the Fuji TY media. I did notice the 50 pack Fuji TY spindles were very loose, but I didn't expect that would be enough to cause all the specks (they look like dust specks to me even if they are very small scratches). I'm pretty sure the 25 pack Fuji TY +Rs I tried last year had padding that kept the discs from moving up and down, but they were also speckled. It appears Lord Smurf's answer to my question of choosing speckled TY vs. non-speckled Prodisc or TDK goes in favor of the non-speckled media even if it's slightly lower quality. Having to restrict my burns to 3800 MB to avoid the specks is not a good solution to me. So I'll probably return the few Fuji TY spindles I bought (I only opened one so far).

Finally, when you said "slower is better" is incorrect, do you think that "slower is worse" or simply that "slower is equal to faster". In other words, if I'm hurting my burn quality (shelf life/reliability) by burning at 2x or 2.4x when I could burn at 4x or 8x, please let me know why that is true so I can stop. If slower is simply equal in quality (not better), I'll continue to burn at 2x because of that 1 old player. I have never spent the time to do comprehensive tests on it, and I don't know which type of media has what type of dye. All I know is at the time the player skipped near the edges of burns faster than 2x on each of the few types of media I tried (probably TDK and RITEKG04 back then).

[Ronaldus]

For some reason my mind kept thinking NEC 52xx instead of 35xx. Newegg has the 3520A for $48.99 today with free shipping. However, I also learned that no burning software is included, so I'm not sure if I'll have to buy a new version of Nero which will greatly increase the cost. For my Pioneer drive I'm still using an old Nero 5.5.10.xx that came with it. I don't expect that'll work with the NEC 3520.

I'm happy with the Pioneer drive and I don't really need another burner, but I'd really like something that has a PI/PO type of error scan (even if Lord Smurf doesn't think they're important) as it would make me feel better. Unless someone can answer for me, I'm going to have to research if DVD Info Pro or Nero CD/DVD Speed can give me error scans BEFORE THE ERROR CORRECTION IS APPLIED. Just like your average DVD reader, I'm pretty sure the Pioneer burner drives only provide results after errors are corrected in firmware, so if the NEC does the same thing it won't accomplish what I want.

It looks like I need to do a lot of research on these issues to see what software I'll need with this drive before I can buy it, and with Newegg's price volatility it'll probably be $5-$10 more expensive by the time I decide. I haven't kept up on drives and software... just media. I tried to find which versions of Nero support the NEC 3520 on their web page, and I couldn't find where they list the supported drives. I'll look again tonight as I'm out of time this morning.

Sorry to get a little off topic in this thread I started about media, although it's all related to my interest in measuring errors and media quality.

[joeg04]

but what I learned from this is not to keep important data on Optodisc, Princo, or Primeon (VDSPSAB01) media.

I think that's right. "Degrading" is the worst possible problem. It can also appear, if paper labels are used. I would avoid them. I also read of many problems with white inkjet printable media.

For me it would be interesting to know, if those disks with "lost data" are warped by more than 1/2 mm. Is it possible, that you could hold problematic disks upside down on top of a good ruler and check, if the sides of the disks touch the ruler and if then the middle of the disk is still more than 1/2 mm away from the ruler? And compare this to good disks?

The DVD spec allows a maximum tilt of 0.4°. If a disk is warped, then the tilt has it's maximum value on the outer side of the disks. Playback problems may occur, if the angle between the laser beam and the disk is outside a range of 90° +/- 0.4°. Also it would be interesting, if there are less playback problems, if the DVD player is cold. That means that it was disconnected from power for many hours before the playback, so that it could not slowly warm up in a standby mode.

Up to now I am only speculating. But maybe the "degrading" problems come from disks (made of bad material) beeing warped, eventually under influence of temperature, rather than from dye quality problems.

[lordsmurf]

PI/PIF/PO/etc scans are not all that important. It can answer (sometimes) "why" a disc is bad, but aside from the techno-geeks in certain forums online, nobody cares.

Don't pretend to speak for anyone besides yourself when you claim that 'nobody cares'. You don't care, and I don't care that you don't, no need to pretend that 'you' equals everyone else. If you care to know about DVD burn quality, PI/PO tests can tell what no other testing can.

The majority of people do not care. PI/PO is only useful up to a point, and most of it serves as nothing more than information for pointless nerd arguments (you need only go to cdfreaks.com to see this sort of thing). Surface scans and real-world DVD player tests count for a lot more.

[lordsmurf]

.....

Yes, I've seen this speculation, as well as the one where somebody insists paper labels are strong enough to bend media.

The "paper bending plastic" is just a stupid theory as far as I'm concerned. The flimsy paper is going to shred long before it warps a double-thick plastic platter.

The heat warping media is probably a true worry, but not under normal conditions. DVD players and room temperatures are not going to cause this. Leaving discs in your car (DVD, not talking CD here), baking them in the sun or oven, or even attacking them with a hair dryer can very likely warp the plastic, but those are not proper storage/usage conditions. At most, maybe if you have a player that overheats (like an early LiteOn 5001 with no fan/cooling mods) and player the disc for countless hours, that's really the only way to heat the disc. But with it spinning the whole time, does it really have the chance to warp? I don't remember everything from long-ago physics classes, but I don't think it's very likely to warp while in use.

Balance is a far more common enemy than warping. Which isn't much different to be honest, because a warped disc won't balance either.

[steve2713]

Nero 5.5xxx should work fine with the NEC 3520, it works fine with my NEC 1300 and 2500, I think it'd be fine with the 3520. Not that it matters, you can use DVD Decrypter for all of your DVD Video burning, it's free and it's more foolproof than Nero anyway. There are freeware programs available for DVD Data burning as well. But as I said Nero should work with the NEC. If not, you can also buy a Nero Suite online for $5.

edit: It looks like it may depend on what version of 5.5.10.xx you have. I've read 5.5.10.56 works with the 3500, not sure if that would work with the 3520 or not. Like I said, if it doesn't work you can buy a Nero Express Suite online for about $5, it's basically the same as the full version depending on the version you buy.

[lordsmurf]

For my Pioneer drive I'm still using an old Nero 5.5.10.xx that came with it. I don't expect that'll work with the NEC 3520.

It probably won't.

You will need to look into RecordNow Max 4.5 (or RNM Deluxe 4.6) and the flashman hacks (also used for Pioneer 109 drives).

Nero 6.6.0.8 is what you'd want to look at Nero-wise, but I'm not a fan. Not for DVD-Video, so many flaws.

I've discussed both of these things in the past, on this forum.

[Gen-An]

These Fuji TY 50-count spindles are crap, they allow for disc movement inside. Discs touch on the edges from being allowed to move too much. There is not enough stacking pressure, via padding hubs, to keep the discs compressed at the hub and therefore unmoveable.

The Fuji TY cakeboxes are just standard Taiyo Yuden cakeboxes. I bought a spindle of unbranded TY 8x DVD+R from Rima and it didn't have any foam spacers at the top either, but there were no specks on the edges of any of the discs. The packaging isn't the problem here.

PI/PIF/PO/etc scans are not all that important. It can answer (sometimes) "why" a disc is bad, but aside from the techno-geeks in certain forums online, nobody cares. There are plenty of ways to learn "if" a disc is bad (Nero CD-DVD Speed), and that's the most important one, software-wise. Don't get sucked into that hole, it's really unneeded.

Hobbies generally *are* "unneeded," what's your point?

[Hawseman]

The majority of people do not care. PI/PO is only useful up to a point, and most of it serves as nothing more than information for pointless nerd arguments (you need only go to cdfreaks.com to see this sort of thing). Surface scans and real-world DVD player tests count for a lot more.

I totally agree that real-world DVD players are the true test. But PI/PO scanning AND surface scans are known to give different results in different drives. So their usefulness is limited in a general sense.

I do think that PI/PO scanning is a great tool. If you analyze the data on CDFreaks, you'll see that the quality media scan lists closely resembles the one on your website....so it can't be that wacky.

When you say that "PI/PO is only useful up to a point", I say that surface scanning is the utility that's "only useful up to a point"....PI/PO can take you beyond pass/fail checking.

My somewhat-wordy, Real-life experience....

I bought Riteks (G02s maybe?) online many moons ago. I burned a movie successfully. The movie played in my burner, 2 of my standalones, but pixelated and skipped in my other (older) standalone. I had never had that issue before. I did all the testing I could but found nothing wrong. It bugged me, because I knew this particular player could play some of my other burned media. I had to find out why this player "hated" Riteks.

Along came the Liteon and Kprobe quality scanning combo. Even though the Riteks were within the error threshold allowances, they were considerably higher than my Sonys/RicohJPNs (I think that's what I used back then). I could compare graph spikes with freezing/skipping areas. I was sold on my first scan, it worked.

I'm anal about perfection. So, I bought sample packs and single jewels from about every vendor on the web and gathered data. I wanted the very best media for my burner(s) and PI/PO scanning helped me find it. To my delight, I actually found that one of my other players would also have issues with borderline, but passable PI/PO scans.

One of these fine old dvd players has since passed away. The day I took up quality scanning, it never had to suffer through another choking incendent like the Ritek ordeal again....poor baby...maybe that's why it's dead now.

Now I sit burning Maxell's, TY's & MCC's....and not because of what I read on this forum. Taking the advice of this forum is what got me in trouble with the Riteks in the first place.

[Ronaldus]

Hawseman, that was an interesting story. I'm a lot like you in wanting near perfection, so that's why I'm so interested in finding a way to do PI/PO type error scans. I know Lite-On drives can do it with Kprobe, but I'm still unclear if the NEC 3520 will do the same thing with the 2 utilities mentioned (DVD Info Pro and Nero CD/DVD Speed). Until I find the answer, I'm not going to buy either a NEC or Lite-On drive.

I'd be interested to see Kprobe scans of my RITEKG03 discs some day. I might think mine were all from a good batch only to find out they are borderline. The primary value of knowing this would be so I could know which media to monitor carefully and start to make backups if any fail.

Besides, Maxell (MXLRG...), TY, and MCC (which I've never gotten), were there any other media types that ranked high on your quality list? For instance, where did TDKG02000000, TTG01, TTG02, PRODISCF01, and RICOHJPNR01 rank?

Long ago I looked at Kprobe scans of these media (on cdfreaks I think) and I admit I wasn't good at analyzing the pictures. All I knew is the spikes on the graph should be as low and flat as possible. I saw a wide variety of results on the same media between the Lite-On drives, so like reading opinions on media I took the average of the scans I saw and figured that all of the above are no worse than average and maybe a bit above. Obviously Maxell (MXLRG03) and TY (without the specks near the edge) would be ideal, but I have trouble finding such media for good prices locally. I have yet to buy any media mail order.

[Ronaldus]

joeg04, I'll make a note to dig out those degraded discs (hopefully I still have some of them left) and try to measure for warping. Considering I only played them once after burning and from a cold start they wouldn't work on multiple players and drives, I feel confident that it was not warping due to heat or use. Perhaps they self-warped sitting on the shelves under room temperature? I don't know.

It may take me a while to do this (i.e. a week or two), so hopefully you'll check this thread occasionally or I'll try to remember to PM you (I always think of "Price Match" instead of "Private Message" when I see PM).

FWIW, my theory (based solely on knowledge and experience regarding laserdisc rot) is the degrading on these DVD-R discs may be due to a chemical reaction (not being manufactured or sealed correctly) and/or the supposedly inert organic dye not being as inert as it's supposed to be. The fact the majority of the failures were 2x burns on 1x Princos but not 1x burns, that makes me think the burn marks in the dye changed enough to cause numerous uncorrectable read failures.

I recently discovered a pristine store-bought DVD had "rotted" on me, but I don't know when it actually died. I played it once in December 1998 and it worked perfectly, then it was stored untouched on a shelf for 6 years (how time flies), and a few weeks ago I tried it and it won't even recognize the disc on any player or drive I've tried. I knew to check it because I read on the Internet someone else had the same trouble with the same DVD. The surface still looks perfect. My theory: it was an early dual-layer disc and I bet over time there was a chemical reaction in the glue (UV bonding) or the bonding degraded enough that the bottom layer moved out of alignment. It's just a theory as I don't know enough about DVD structure to know if the player looks at the top or bottom layer when the disc is inserted.

I've added it to my long to-do list to find out how to decipher DVD manufacturer codes to see if there's a pattern. I used to be an expert at laserdisc mint marks and could decode any by sight, but there are many more DVD manufacturers and I have not yet found a site like Blaine Young's laserdisc site that lists all common DVD manufacturers and their mint mark codes. Has anyone found such a site?

[Ronaldus]

One of my important questions (important to me, that is) got lost among the other posts.

Does anyone have any reason to believe that burning media rated at 4x or 8x at 2x (or 2.4x) is a bad idea?

Lord Smurf said it was incorrect that burning at a lower speed than the media is rated produces a higher quality burn (i.e. lower PI/PO), so my question is if burning at a lower speed is worse (in terms of PI/PO) than burning at the maximum rated speed?

I continue to burn everything (mostly 8x media these days) at 2x or 2.4x. I'd like to know if anyone has done PI/PO scans of the same media burned at different speeds (especially on a Pioneer A07) or if anyone has enough knowledgea about media dyes vs. burn speed/laser power level to suggest that I should always burn at the media's maximum speed possible or if I can continue to burn at 2x (or 2.4x) without worries.

[steve2713]

You absolutely cannot summarize whether burning a disc at lower than its rated speed will result in better/worse/indifferent results. There are far too many variables between all the different burner models/firmware versions/media types. I've had lots of media rated at 4x burn just as well at 8x on one burner and worthless at 8x but fine at 4x on another burner. Change the firmware and now it burns better at 8x than 4x. I have some fake TYG02 discs that burn decent at 8x. They burn poor at 4x, and horrible at 2x. My CMC R01 2.4x rated media burns great with essentially identical PI/PO numbers from 2.4x to 8x on my NEC 2500. Alot of my 8x media burns great at 8x on my burners but sucks at 2.4x and 4x.

I could go on and on... It constantly will differ based on the burner/firmware/media used.

[joeg04]

Does anyone have any reason to believe that burning media rated at 4x or 8x at 2x (or 2.4x) is a bad idea?

I also think there is no general rule. You have to test it from case to case.
Often reducing burning speed has no significant influence. See an example:
http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/traxdata_dvd_r_8x.cfm
I also saw scans, where reducing burning speed led to much worse results than at maximum speed. It depends, how much effort is put into firmware development, optimisation and testing at the lower speeds.
I think Traxdata non-printable 8xDVD-R G05 (example above) is very good media, better than RiData or Arita. But firmware compatibility has to be checked first, because they changed their G05 dye formular.

Here some links to scans of printable media:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?p=981470#post981470
http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/bulkpaq_8x_dvd-r_printable_review.cfm

[joeg04]

Balance is a far more common enemy than warping.

I have 3 paper labeled Sony-DVD-Rs that are 2 year old. They played perfectly in a DV-454 1 week after burning and skip and freeze towards the end after 2 years of storing vertically in CD cases in a black plastic box at room temperature. All tested non-labeled DVD-Rs still play perfectly after the same time in the same player.
How can balance change over time?

[lordsmurf]

Balance is a far more common enemy than warping.

I have 3 paper labeled Sony-DVD-Rs that are 2 year old. They played perfectly in a DV-454 1 week after burning and skip and freeze towards the end after 2 years of storing vertically in CD cases in a black plastic box at room temperature. All tested non-labeled DVD-Rs still play perfectly after the same time in the same player.
How can balance change over time?

Bubbling of labels is very common.