Buying a 32" LCD TV. Any suggestions?

[SaSi]

I am looking closely to two models:

Philips 32PF4320
LG 32LZ50

Both are 1360x768, progressive scan, offer VGA (Philips) or DVI (LG) inputs and look nice. The LG also sports a Farudjia processor.
Any opinions on these models? Any other model (32" - HDTV) to suggest by anyone?

I am going to connect and operate the TV unit out of a HTPC via VGA output. I have compared VGA (analog) to DVI output on some PC monitors that offer both connectors and in all honesty, did not notice any difference in picture quality even at 1280x1024 resolutions on 17" and 19" panels.

Do you believe there is any practical benefit of the DVI input over an analog VGA input when watching DVD video?

[Xylob the Destroyer]

get a CRT.

[SaSi]

get a CRT.

I would - gladly. Only problem is that the space I have (depth) barely accomodates a 21" CRT now.

[Xylob the Destroyer]

understood.
i just got a $ony 36" HD set, it weighs almost 300 pounds -- 26" deep....

i shopped for almost 2 years and ultimately decided that the LCD's simply don't have a good picture.

Plasmas are nice and have a good pic, but WAY too expensive still, not to mention the fact that the estimated lifespan is just under 8 years.
$7K for a TV that won't last a decade vs. $1700.00 for one that will last at least 2 decades is an easy choice.

I have a 27" Sony Trinitron that was manufactured in 1982. Still works, still has a great picture (for what it is, remember, 1982 = no S-VIDEO).

[edDV]

Main limitations of current LCD displays are contrast and black level. Demo in similar room light to yours. Make sure you get one optimized to home theater, not conference room.

[Xylob the Destroyer]

definitely good advice, but it's hard to demo in anything but bright-ass flourescent showroom floor with 30 other TV's all around.

[guns1inger]

CRT's are still the best picture quality and by far the best bang for buck.

If you can't see any difference between VGA and DVI on an LCD display, then don't buy that display. The quality isn't there. What is the refresh rate for these displays ? Anything slower than around 12ms will ghost in fast video.

Finally, although they are touted as HD capable, they aren't capable of showing the full raneg of HDTV signals without compromise. 1080i will have to be resized down to fit a 768 resolution.

I haven't yet been convinced to leave my CRT, even though it is starting to look a little small by comprison. In the case of TVs, it ain't the size, it's the quality.

[shelbyGT]

So, a guy asks for opinions on which of two LCD's he should get, and everyone says "Go with CRT". That wasn't his question!

I don't have an answer, I just wanted to try and get this back on topic.

[Richard_G]

The latest range of Panasonic LCD TVs are reckoned to be the best yet. I don't know if the same models will be available in Hellas as in the UK, but my father has just bought one of these and it is as good as any plasma I've seen so far http://www.panasonic.co.uk/lcd-tv/tx32lxd50/index.htm

It has an integrated digital tuner as well as the standard analogue one, although the version in your country may not be the same.

[handyguy]

You should look at a tv in the store under similar lighting to your home. Most stores use flourescent lights tho.

Eyes vary on what they see.

[SaSi]

OK, no response on specific models, but I think something good is coming out of this.

I have a 19" LCD (budget model - AOC) as an replacement to an ageing 17" Trinitron CRT that was dying. This is actually a PC monitor with a resolution of 1280x1024.

It looks great for word processing or programming or anything text based. Characters are legible, solid and stable.

Looking at pictures is a mess. Too much brightness - settings are set to 0% brightness and 0% contrast. Further, color balance is set to 30% on all three colors - in a desparate attempt to reduce luminance.

Displaying DVD Video on this display is clearly fuzzy. Displaying the same video on a 19" CRT sitting next to the LCD monitor is way different and much better quality. Much better contrast, existing black and better color saturation without any fuzziness.

Plasma is much better than LCD, I agree, but no plasma can be found any more at anything less than 42".

I am not really keen to spend 1500~2000 euro on something that I will watch to everyday and get pissed off by the bad image quality.

I would be really interested do know feedback from people owning LCD TVs (any model or size) and how they show video.

[edDV]

LCD TV comes in two types.

The first and most common uses similar technology to a computer display. Computer displays use a more linear gamma than a TV. They are also RGB progressive and have much less contrast than a TV. Computer LCD is optimal for office lighting where a bright screen is needed to compete with bright room lighting. The compromise comes at the expense of dark color performance.

A CRT TV using broadcast gamma puts much more detail resolution in the dark grays and near blacks. A TV is optimised for viewing in darkened home lighting. Emphasis is placed on acurate dark scene reproduction in a similar way to motion picture film in a theater. A CRT (and the broadcast standard) has less dynamic contrast than film so white (brightness detail) is compromised.

A newer, currently more expensive LCD technology is seeking to optimize more for home theater needs. That means a true black in a dark room (not dark gray), TV gamma, more contrast and better motion performance w/o smear. It will take years to get LCD as good a CRT but this is the goal.

Like TV projectors, LCD TV sets split into standard (e.g. computer optimized) and home theater optimized models.

[Richard_G]

OK, no response on specific models, but I think something good is coming out of this.

Err, so did you ignore my last post???

or isn't a link to the spec on the Panasonic Viera TX32LXD50 clear enough?

[Xylob the Destroyer]

...clearly fuzzy...

are you drinking?? :P

[edDV]

OK, no response on specific models, but I think something good is coming out of this.

Having no experience with either model, I decided to respond generally.

Now you want us to work.

LG

Faroudja - very good
DVI with HDCP encryption. - make sure they will take it back if it blocks your HTPC
400:1 contrast OK only if you live in a Safeway

Philips specs very scant
VGA prob indicates this is 2yr old model

[edDV]

Article in Tom's Hardware

http://www20.graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20050309/index.html

[SaSi]

OK, no response on specific models, but I think something good is coming out of this.

Err, so did you ignore my last post???

or isn't a link to the spec on the Panasonic Viera TX32LXD50 clear enough?

Sorry if it appeared I ignored your response. I didn't. Problem is that Panasonic - for easons I cannot understand - is not activelly marketed in my Country. Both Panasonic and Technics brands appear to have been less prominent.

On the other hand, this particular model seems to be exactly what I would need.

The speakers are placed in the bottom and no useless border is built around the panel making this one of the smallest - if not the smallest - 32" lcd panels @ 795 x 573 compared to 940 x 670 of almost all other models I've seen.

I will chase this model and see if it is available localy. I wouldn't mail order such a device from abroad.

[SaSi]

OK, no response on specific models, but I think something good is coming out of this.

Having no experience with either model, I decided to respond generally.

Now you want us to work.

LG

Faroudja - very good
DVI with HDCP encryption. - make sure they will take it back if it blocks your HTPC
400:1 contrast OK only if you live in a Safeway

Philips specs very scant
VGA prob indicates this is 2yr old model

Thanks for the "work"
Actually, in terms of flat TVs, I confess to know nothing.

I agree with your hint on the VGA input for the Philips as an indication that it is "old technology". Actually, searching the internet revealed lots of good feedback on this particular model, some of it dating more than 12 months ago.

I am also concerned about your comment on HDCP encryption. I just managed do get away with the Microsoft's ASF encryption of captured TV broadcast with the .dvr-ms file they produce in Media Center and I don't want to face similar problems on interfaces as well.

Regarding contrast, 400:1 seems a little low compared to the various advertised values. Can anyone give a hint how this contrast value compares to, say, 800:1 when viewing TV in a 4x3 room with a 250W halogen lamp mounted on the ceiling?

Hint: I understand that 800:1 is double to 400:1, however is 400:1 inadequate? Is 800:1 more than enough? Is 1000:1 a typical minimum value one should aim for ?

In the meantime, I am reading the Tom's Hardware article on flat panel TVs to brush up my understanding.

[edDV]

The Tom's hardware article said it best. A real black is more important than low contrast. A gray black with more contrast will look worse.

[SaSi]

The Tom's hardware article said it best. A real black is more important than low contrast. A gray black with more contrast will look worse.

Yes, I read a few of the articles on displays and most of it is now clear. An ultra bright display can exhibit a nominal contrast of 1000:1 but such a display would be like the one I have now. I am strugling to get black on it. I simply cannot.

I am thinking of setting up a test environment on my laptop to take with me and check a couple of panels at friends (I doubt any salesperson will be happy with me prying on the monitors with my laptop).

I have already decided to postpone my purchase until I can understand and judge for myself.

However, don't consider this thread closed or dead. If you think you have useful input, please by all means contribute.

[mikesbytes]

I too was disappointed with the quality of the non CRT TV's especially considering the price.

Have being considering using a 19/20in Computer flat screen, coupled to PC setup to act as a PVR with a digtal TV tuner. Total cost would be similar to an LCD TV of the same size and would provide the PVR function as well.

HOWEVER, if you want to go larger, then the computer monitor blows the budget badly.

[edDV]

The Tom's hardware article said it best. A real black is more important than low contrast. A gray black with more contrast will look worse.

...

I am thinking of setting up a test environment on my laptop to take with me and check a couple of panels at friends (I doubt any salesperson will be happy with me prying on the monitors with my laptop).

You don't need a laptop. Just burn a DVD or use a known commercial DVD and have them, the store, play that on the monitor you are evaluating with their DVD player. Insist on room lighting and first adjust the monitor to the THX color bar available on many commercial DVDs (e.g. Indy Jones, Star Wars, many others). For LCD, pay particular attention to black performance, resolution for various input standards and if you will be using the tuner, check decoder (comb filter) performance with the composite input. For a CRT add all the linearity and registration tests. First test a typical unit, then test your unit before taking it home.

Once you get to testing "your" unit, if a LCD, check for bad pixels with a magnifying glass.

If you think they are totally dishonest, take your own DVD player

[SaSi]

The Tom's hardware article said it best. A real black is more important than low contrast. A gray black with more contrast will look worse.

...

I am thinking of setting up a test environment on my laptop to take with me and check a couple of panels at friends (I doubt any salesperson will be happy with me prying on the monitors with my laptop).

You don't need a laptop. Just burn a DVD or use a known commercial DVD and have them, the store, play that on the monitor you are evaluating with their DVD player. Insist on room lighting and first adjust the monitor to the THX color bar available on many commercial DVDs (e.g. Indy Jones, Star Wars, many others). For LCD, pay particular attention to black performance, resolution for various input standards and if you will be using the tuner, check decoder (comb filter) performance with the composite input. For a CRT add all the linearity and registration tests. First test a typical unit, then test your unit before taking it home.

Once you get to testing "your" unit, if a LCD, check for bad pixels with a magnifying glass.

If you think they are totally dishonest, take your own DVD player

Excellent suggestion
Using a simple DVD Menu, I will be able to select the tests I want to do. I can even try audio tests to try the TV speakers (although I know they are useless for real Home Theater performance).

One particular test that I have seen most TVs and monitors fail is the presence of saturated monochromatic content in the basic colors. For example, full RED as menu highlight makes most TV sets saturate the image to the extent that the image is inversed.

Regarding the DVD players used in show rooms, in one store they used a Blue Sky DVD Player (don't know if the "brand" is known but it is a $40 player) with composite output split to 5 different plugs to feed 5 TV sets concurrently. It is obvious that these TVs will suffer and I have seen the picture resemble a VHS tape recorded in LP mode. The salesman's point was that these TVs were not good and their picture quality suffered because the manufacturer crammed too many pixels on the panel (1386x768). He said I should buy one of the smaller resolution panels to have crisp image.

BTW, I managed to tweak my 19" LCD monitor to show proper colors. I now have black and the color of the skin looks like skin. Of course, white is now pale and almost greyish. Having the 19" CRT side by side with the LCD and viewing at the same picture, it is obvious that the ageing CRT has a much better contrast than the 800:1 ratio of the LCD.

I have also done a close comparison between a 26" Sony LCD and a 42" Philips plasma TV. Both are expensive high end models purchased recently by a friend who knows how to spend money.

The LCD picture is washed out and the viewing angle suffers immensly. The plasma TV looks bright and the colors are excellent. To me, it is obvious that no matter how much they cost (for some reason LCDs are marketed as more expensive products) plasma is a much better panel to view video on.

My problem is that I don't have the space to put a 42" panel - period. I also have a budget issue, but at least space limitations saves me to grumble I cannot spend 3-4,000 euro on a plasma TV.

Now, if I may "highjack" my thread, what about projectors?

Forget it, no space to mount a projector and no space to put the screen.

[mikesbytes]

Now, if I may "highjack" my thread, what about projectors?

Forget it, no space to mount a projector and no space to put the screen.

Generally they seem to need darkened rooms.

Suppose a bigger house is out of the question ?

[SaSi]

Now, if I may "highjack" my thread, what about projectors?

Forget it, no space to mount a projector and no space to put the screen.

Generally they seem to need darkened rooms.

Suppose a bigger house is out of the question ?

Anything available over 150sqm and under 1500 euro?

BTW, my wife made the mistake to "accept" the operation of a electrically retractable screen. Provided it folds up when not used. This means a projector goes in par and both can be obtained for under 2000.

I am already considering the cabling requirements for the roof-mounted projector.

I really gave up the thought of getting a 32" LCD. 32" is much larger than my current 21 but LCD for the amount I can spend is rubbish. Plasma is much better but they start at 42"

If I am going to spend 2000 then I'd rather get much better picture and 60" easy. (Careful not get over excited and aim for 100" because then I will need a $25,000 projector.

[edDV]

Projectors have +/- as well. Other things being equal, larger projection size means greater viewing distance. Everything is a tradeoff.

[louthewiz]

HSN has been selling protron 32 inch ws lcds and they are the same manafacturer of panasonic units,so if you need to get one purchase the one on hsn and if you don't like it you got 30 days to return it and for $1,299. it's a great deal.

[handyguy]

"Now, if I may "highjack" my thread, what about projectors?"

Anything projection = bulb= $$$ = not under guarantee.

[mikesbytes]

Anything available over 150sqm and under 1500 euro?

What about knocking a wall out