Am I authoring the VCD wrong or is this as good as it gets?

[OshKoshBJosh 123]

I recently purchased a very nice, top of the line, digital video camcorder with intentions of taping imortant events and storing them on my computer. The software that came with the camcorder was MGI VideoWave III. I am trying to burn VCDs of the events I have taped. When I hook the camera directly to the television it gives me beautiful full screen play, but when I capture it on my computer and burn it to a VCD it is extremely grainy when put in a dvd player. Is there any way to author a vcd so that it is not grainy when made fullscreen on a television, but still play in most dvd players. I know it must remain the the standard resolution of 352 by 240, but can i get better quality. I have plenty of harddrive space. I just want to make vhs quality vcds without the blurred fullscreen. Am I asking for too much? Any suggestions?

[ngnr]

Since you just became a member today I can provide two valuable suggestions.

1. Read the guides.
2. Don't cross post.

[Jason A]

Oh...nice reply ngnr...real helpful.

So..OshKosh...you have the problem with VCD at 1.15mb/sec looking grainy on your DVD player huh?

Well, problem is...even with the best image-stabilization, you still get lots of movement on the screen, which makes it hard for the MPEG compressor to keep a good picture quality when only doing 1.15mb/sec.

So when I had the same problem, and was burning VCD's, what I did was do a test and encode a small portion that turned out blocky and re-encode it at a higher bitrate until it's gone or was at a acceptable level. here's what I found...

VCD-352x240 in a Panasonic A-310 player.
1.15mb/sec- VCD Standard. Good when no movment, but blocky when lots of it.

1.3mb/sec & 1.4mb/sec yielded good results, and my player would work fine.

Jumped up to 1.8mb/sec and the player would start to fall behind in the video/audio sync..to much

1.6 and 1.7 looked good, but similar problem after a few minutes.

1.55mb/sec (the magic #!!) This bitrate worked excellent in my player, no problems, and even during the highest screen movement sections, it would rarely get blocky.

Then think about this....I went from 1.15 to 1.55......this is about 400k/sec more data that is delievered to the video compressor.

Plus, I set my audio to 96K/sec so even more can be put towards the video.

And!!! it also works on most other units as well.

Give it a try..encoding at a little higher bit rate.

Jason

[ngnr]

Actually, I thought it was helpful, although perhaps a little unkind, I admit. There is more information in the guides on this site than anyone can hope to put in a short reply so reading them will provide a lot of insight and probably answer questions osh has not even thought of yet. As for the cross posting comment - cross posting will end up splitting replies and probably cause different posters to provide the same answers in different places, wasting time and forum space. Besides that, it causes "noise".

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ngnr on 2001-12-13 20:35:57 ]</font>

[John Devine]

Hello, this is John, and I have a post that is begging for the same answers as OskoshJosh here. Jason, thank you for
your reply, but unless I am missing something in TMPGEnc,
you cannot change the settings because the templates set
everything and you cannot tweak them!

And NGNR, I am sure you are very knowledgeable, but this
forum has so MANY different topics that it would take days and weeks to read every post trying to find the solution to a particular problem. It is very intimidating!

Thanks.

John

[EricB]

Yes, I agree that we need to keep trying to help people that are just starting. Even with all the guides and such, it can be daunting at first, to figure out how these products work. TMPGenc is a great encoder, but the documentation is non-existant, and I find new things it will do every week.

Jason A is right on the money. The bit rate for standard VCD (IMO) is just too low for anything other than "perfect" source material. Boosting the rate can do a lot for home DV stuff which invariably has more video noise, lighting problems, etc. As you try other rates, you need to check short clips to see how your player responds. At 1800 Kbps, my player produces smooth video and audio, if I boost it to 2000, I get problems in the audio.

If your player supports SVCD, try that with DV. I find the standard SVCD template produces excellent results with DV source.

To John Devine, yes the way to change rates in TMPGenc isn't obvious, you have to load an "unlock" template. Then you can change rates in the standard.

Finally, OshKoshBJosh, you mention using VideoWave III. That is fine for DV editing, but you might try using TMPGenc to encode your DV video. It is much better, and has far more options.

[sracer]

Sorry to disagree with EricB and JasonA, but Standard VCD can produce excellent results under this scenario.

OshKoshBJosh didn't say how he was capturing the video. THAT is an important piece of information!

If he is attempting to capture with software-MPEG on-the-fly encoding to VCD-compliant MPEG1, then certainly the results will be poor. However, capturing at uncompressed AVI, or high bitrate MPEG, and re-encoding to VCD-MPEG1, the results will be significantly better.

[ngnr]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-14 09:22:26, John Devine wrote:

And NGNR, I am sure you are very knowledgeable, but this
forum has so MANY different topics that it would take days and weeks to read every post trying to find the solution to a particular problem. It is very intimidating!
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Me? Knowlegeable? Nope - I'm still reading the guides. Seriously. And you're right, it does take days and weeks.

[John Devine]

Hi again, thanks for the replies. You mean there is a template in TMPGEnc called 'unlock' that I can load that
will permit me to change th ebitrate?!!! Are you kidding me? After 10 days of reading these forum topics, this may
be the answer I am looking for! Thanks EricB, I am off to
the editing computer to play with TMPGEnc!

John D

[TMcD]

Look in the directory: Templates>Extra>unlock.mcf

Troy

[rphunt]

Changing the bitrate is NOT the answer here. The VCD spec uses one specific bit rate (not like DVD which is VBR). If you try to burn with noncompliant mpeg1 files, software such as Nero will want to reformat it, or your DVD player may not play it properly if at all. VCD quality is more about the encoder you use. For good quality, don't capture to an mpeg1 file. Capture to AVI. Don't use any encoder that comes with the capture software either. Use TMPGEnc, selecting the VCD template, and selecting the Good quality setting.

[neomaine]

oshkosh,

to save you a little time..

1-Yes, VCD has ONE specific bit rate BUT:

- Go XVCD and increase the bitrate, not a real standard but like others, I have a real hard time finding something that doesn't go to at least 1500-1800 (vs 1150) if it supports VCD. This helped me DRAMATICALLY with captures and rips to smooth them out and have them look as nice as any commercial VCD. They play great on my 6yr old laptop CD drive, 4yr old cd-rom on one PC, my standalone DVD/VCD/CD player (use CDRW on Panasonic RV30), my Playstation and my kid's friend's Dreamcast. Yes VCD is written as a hard standard, but looks like everyone is pretty forgiving.

2 - Nero. I've been burning dozens of captures and movies with bitrates from 1500 to 1800 without any issues using Nero's VCD template.

3 - Be sure to capture to AVI for the most flexibility until you find a cleaner way to capture directly to VCD.

Have a good one...

[DVantrease]

Not only the bitrate, but increasing the resolution will help alot, depending on your source. At least for DVD rips, I encode everything at 480x480. Of course your DVD player has to support it (XVCD).

[nvost361]

ngnr, I am also a new member today, but I have been reading the posts for months now and the guides. Cut the guy some slack. Exactly what is cross-posting smart-a$$? I would like to thank the rest of you for answering the Oshkosh post. I also had similar problems, but my DVD is capable of XVCD play, so I use TMPEGEnc to convert to a file with 1800 bit rate with the standard resolution. I also utilize some of the filters in the settings to reduce noise and blockiness with very good results. Bottom line is that if you are trying to convert crap into something quality, it just can't be done. You need to have a good rip in the first place.

[vitualis]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-14 11:43:36, neomaine wrote:
I have a real hard time finding something that doesn't go to at least 1500-1800 (vs 1150) if it supports VCD.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

My stand-alone VCD player (SAST AEP-627) does not. Most stand-alone VCD players in fact will not play XVCDs... not only because they tend to adhere to the standard a little bit more closely, but also because many are based around a 1x CD-ROM drive.

The VCD standard is not flexible and if you want your VCD to play in most players (especially the the original equipment VCDs were designed for!! ), don't change the bitrate.

@nvost361, the two suggestions that ngnr made are VERY valid. Do your research BEFORE posting a question. Most of your questions have already been answered in the guides and in the forums previously. Also, cross-posting (i.e., posting the same question on several forums) is frowned upon. If you have been reading the posts for several months now, you should have at least picked up these two points of etiquette.

Regards.

[nvost361]

Michael. I'm sorry if you confused me with someone else. I only posted 1 question ever and I've read all the guides and my question was not answered in any of the guides. And the crappy response by ngnr was of no help, valid or not. And maybe you need to do your research before you start making accusations of me posting questions that have been answered. You want etiquette, then stop crabbing at one another. If someone wants help.........offer it, without the sh!tty remarks. Also, the bitrates CAN be changed and still able to make a compliant VCD using NERO!!!! Done it many times.

[sracer]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-14 11:43:36, neomaine wrote:
This helped me DRAMATICALLY with captures and rips to smooth them out and have them look as nice as any commercial VCD. They play great on my 6yr old laptop CD drive, 4yr old cd-rom on one PC, my standalone DVD/VCD/CD player (use CDRW on Panasonic RV30), my Playstation and my kid's friend's Dreamcast. Yes VCD is written as a hard standard, but looks like everyone is pretty forgiving.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

neomaine, I have a ThinkPad 760XL (166Mhz Pentium MMX, 108MB RAM, 2 GB harddrive, 8x CDROM) that I'm trying to turn in to a dedicated VCD Player. Since it has removable harddrives, I have one set up specifically to play VCDs. The problem that I'm running into is that I cannot get VCDs to play smoothly... very, very, jerky and stuttering... more like a slideshow than anything else.

I'm interested in what laptop you are using, the hardware specs, and software specs (eg, Operating System, player software, etc.)

Any info you can provide is greatly appreciated, thanks.

[vitualis]

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On 2001-12-17 06:21:41, nvost361 wrote:
I'm sorry if you confused me with someone else...</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

"Your" as in collective "your". I was not talking about YOU in particular.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Also, the bitrates CAN be changed and still able to make a compliant VCD using NERO!!!! Done it many times.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Also, I get annoyed when people without a clue of what they are talking spread incorrect information.

You cannot make a compliant VCD with a non-standard bitrate. Just because Nero can accept it means absolutely squat.

Regards.

[nvost361]

Then why does NERO accept non-standard bitrates while the box marked "standard compliant vcd" is checked? In my version of NERO, if there is something non-standard, it asks me if I would like to reencode or turn off standard compliant vcd. This does not appear with non-standard bitrates. Start answering questions vitualis instead of putting people down you all knowing computer geek.

[ngnr]

nvost361:

So much anger from one person, all of it from you, and only you, in this series of posts. Any why all the name calling? Can't you get your points across in a rational manner without resorting to such antics? Calm down and stay off the high doses of caffiene.

Now, where's that ignore switch...ahh, there it is...CLICK!

[MicoMan]

"I have a ThinkPad 760XL (166Mhz Pentium MMX, 108MB RAM, 2 GB harddrive, 8x CDROM) that I'm trying to turn in to a dedicated VCD Player. Since it has removable harddrives, I have one set up specifically to play VCDs. The problem that I'm running into is that I cannot get VCDs to play smoothly... very, very, jerky and stuttering... more like a slideshow than anything else."

Have you got your CD drive set to DMA??

[Jason A]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-14 09:57:50, sracer wrote:
Sorry to disagree with EricB and JasonA, but Standard VCD can produce excellent results under this scenario.

OshKoshBJosh didn't say how he was capturing the video. THAT is an important piece of information!

If he is attempting to capture with software-MPEG on-the-fly encoding to VCD-compliant MPEG1, then certainly the results will be poor. However, capturing at uncompressed AVI, or high bitrate MPEG, and re-encoding to VCD-MPEG1, the results will be significantly better.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Well..problem is...DV is already compressed 3-to1 so you can never get around that unless you have a DVcam.

If you capture through a analog AVI, you are still going to loose more then using firewire.

And I don't care what anybody says about VCD...it's just not good enough for anything above VHS quality....and atleast with VHS, you won't get artifacting.

SVCD would be the minimum, but it's true that a VCD format or 352x240 with a little higher bitrate can be great, just not at 1.15/sec.

Also, no one and I mean NO ONE can produce a steady image on a camcorder unless it's on a tripod or a steadycam frame.

Even the pros can't keep it still, and when you are recording your kids birthday or soccer game...well forget it!!

I'm also in the same boat as EricB.... my DVD player will be great on the standard bitrates, any I can usually go somewhat beyond that, but then after a certain point, audio and or video gets screwy...

Play with a CD-RW and find the bitrate that'll work for you.

Jason

[mpack]

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On 2001-12-18 10:10:07, Jason A wrote:
And I don't care what anybody says about VCD... it's just not good enough for anything above VHS quality.... and at least with VHS, you won't get artifacting.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree. I've listened to the claims people make about VCD, and I can only use they are talking about NTSC, because I've certainly never seen a PAL VCD (including commercially produced ones, of which I have several) that comes anywhere near the quality of a new, unworn, commercially produced PAL VHS. In truth quality is a subjective matter, but I find the blockiness and banding artifacts evident in a VCD much more objectionable than the salt and pepper noise analog noise evident in a good VHS tape.

I assume that we *should* compare like with like, and not (say) top quality VCD against piss poor old VHS tape?

Another MPEG artifact I've noticed even occurs on some of my DVDs, and it's very distracting... Say there's a guy in front of the camera wearing a pin-stripe suit. When he is perfectly still then the "pins" are clearly visible - but whenever he moves, even if only slightly, then the pins disappear. Once you start noticing this stuff it becomes, like I said, very distracting!

The only really acceptable disk that I've produced was an xVCD using twice the standard VCD resolution (which makes it a bit higher res than SVCD also), at twice the VCD bitrate. On a video that had been losslessly capped from VHS and then denoised with VDub this produced excellent results.

[Graham Meredith]

OshKoshBJosh,
What happens if you capture your video footage from your camera using the analog outputs into your capture card? I've read reports in various posts that capturing directly via firewire port from a digital camcorder actually ends up WORSE than if you use the analog connections. Don't know if this is possible for you, you might not have an analog input card to test this on, but it would be interesting to see if this is true.


http://forums.matroxusers.com/showthread.php?s=ece735088317173e16498d9e090b151b&thread...digital+camera

http://forums.matroxusers.com/showthread.php?s=ece735088317173e16498d9e090b151b&thread...digital+camera

Graham

[vitualis]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-18 06:24:55, nvost361 wrote:
Then why does NERO accept non-standard bitrates while the box marked "standard compliant vcd" is checked? In my version of NERO, if there is something non-standard, it asks me if I would like to reencode or turn off standard compliant vcd. This does not appear with non-standard bitrates. Start answering questions vitualis instead of putting people down you all knowing computer geek.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmmm, I suppose what Nero can and cannot do on your PC is now the dictate of law?

If Nero can do that it shows one thing -- that you can unknowingly create non-standard VCD with Nero (which is relatively common knowledge).

Try to learn some FACTS about VCD before going off on a childish tantrum.

Regards.

[Bluez]

oof, lots of anger and emotional flares, but let's see if i can help out a little:

1. re dedicated laptop as vcd player: try cinemascope, needs less power, and change cache buffers (try cacheman)

2. re vcd quality (grainy / non smooth): if you want vcd, you can't go to scvd as it isn't vcd , first check if the captures material is smooth enough, do not capture directly to mpeg, use tmpg in hi quality mode when converting

3. re vcd vs. vhs: well, indeed ntsc video is the pits so yes, obviously pal vhs is much better than ntsc vhs, but pal vhs is not always better than vcd, i mostly assume them to be on equal level (brand new pal vhs beats vcd, but vhs tapes tend to age and vhs players do so as well ... although recently i converted a divx file to vcd, quality high, in tmpgen 2, and i was astonished by the quality... it all depends on your source material, i would suspect