DVD-R DL anyone?

[thor300]

Thanx for the link. So plextor is better than Pioneer for -R DL, but Pio good enough so it looks promising for the quality of this media. Still no -R DL available here btw...

[Edmund Blackadder]

The new DVD-R DL media also have good physical properties and the 2 tested drives give excellent results. However, there are great problems in reading them. c't tried them on various drive types with following success rates:

10 / 15 DVD-Burners
1 / 11 DVD-ROM drives + 4 just layer 1 (!!!!)
12 / 16 DVD-Players (standalone) + 4 just layer 1
4 / 7 DVD-Recorders (standalone) + 1 just layer 1

Of the current models of DVD-ROM drives tested, only the Philips PCDV5016 was able to read the disk completely.
This is an inherent problem of the book type: DVD-R. A lot of drives apparently don't expect a second layer for this type and (at present?) there is no possibilty to set the book-type to DVD-ROM (as for the +R DL media).

I told you so!

The booktype issue is what's going to kill DVD-R DL. On the contrary at my yesterday's trip to Best Buy only 1 portable DVD player (Toshiba) could not load DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM booktype. All the rest, cheap or expensive, standalone, combos, etc., played DVD+R DL flwalessly. So I have a feeling that DVD+R DL will survive and DVD-R DL will.............

By the way, I have finally tried Fuji branded RICOHJPN DVD+R DL. As always, burned it on Pioneer A09XL with RecordNow 7.3, though only at 2.4x. Well, we have finally got some competition to Verbatim! The players that were choking on Ritek DL play Ricoh absolutely beautifully. The KProbe scans are great (even better than Verbatim at the end of 1st layer). The recognition times on a couple of my very old DVD-ROM drives (1998) are as fast as pressed DVD-ROM and no problems reading. Verbatim takes a little longer to recognize. The funny part is that Ricoh discs are made at the Ritek factory and they look almost identical (except for the typical Ricoh stamped code numbers on dye ring), but Ricoh is so much more compatible. MKM/Verbatim better watch out as these are outstanding DL discs!

[thor300]

Very bad for dvd-rom drives, but i think the result for standalone players was not bad. 12 out of 16 and the remaining 4 played the first layer. Hopefully its safe to say -R DL will play on most Pioneer players? Im not planning to buy any other brand of player anyway, so i hope the only issue i have to worry about is which format burns better.

Thanx for the comments on Fuji RICOHJPN, i know a place to buy those by the piece, i will try one. What worried me was that you burned them at 2.4x, is it not possible at 4x/6x with current firmwares for a09?

[lordsmurf]

12 / 16 DVD-Players (standalone) + 4 just layer 1

That's not a bad ratio. On a larger scale, it'll probably do equally as well. DVD+R DL barely has that same quota.

DVD-ROMs have always been anal with burned media, as have DVD recorders.

If the players and burners are good, that's all that matters.

[Edmund Blackadder]

That's not a bad ratio. On a larger scale, it'll probably do equally as well. DVD+R DL barely has that same quota.

I can't believe, even after looking at all the test facts, that you still defend DVD Forum's DL format! And those 4 players that got confused on the second layer are clearly confused because of DVD-R booktype.

Again I will say that it was probably the stupidest thing DVD Forum have ever made. I will gladly create a new thread here when Verbatim DVD-R DL is finally available locally, then record the same material on both DVD+R DL and DVD-R DL on the same burner (A09XL), with the same software and same speed (4x), select a free day, and go test those DVD's on each player I can find in local stores. Wanna bet that DVD+R DL recorded with DVD-ROM bitsetting will end up being way more compatible?

And you, Lordsmurf, when everything starts to switch towards DL, would you honestly choose a DL format that successfully plays perhaps not on 100%, but on solid 90% of your clients DVD players and DVD-ROM drives (lots of laptops out there), or will you choose a format that you love passionately, but which has a much lower compatibility? I mean, if you go with your favorite, you might end up loosing a lot of your business. You think I'm doing all this DL testing and writing a lot about how to burn it properly just for fun and defending DVD+R DL just because of my ego? Absolutely not. I too have my customers, and when time comes to use DL I want to make sure that I have the best possible compatibility. DVD+R DL ain't perfect, but I'm darn positive that compatibility-wise it will still beat the crap out of DVD-R DL. We'll find that out (and confirm my predictions) very soon...

I was a DVD-R supporter since my purchase of Pioneer A03. I always used DVD-R more than DVD+R. But with DL, I think the things are turning around. I see the point of DVD-R DL to have the booktype as DVD-R instead of DVD-ROM: it's probably so that when the DVD-R DL standalone recorders come out, they don't get confused by DVD-ROM booktype, thinking that those are read-only discs. If that's a benefit DVD Forum is trying to achieve - it's perfectly fine. However, that doesn't make their DL format any more compatible with a whole bunch of other various DVD devices. Basically they seem to have an even worse result than DVD+R DL with DVD+R DL booktype. Fortunately, DVD+R DL is more flexible, by offering bitsetting, and so it's already practically at the level of compatibility as single layer write-once recordable media. Lordsmurf, I know you will again brush these facts off in favor of your preferred format, but facts are facts and at some point you just have to come out of denial.

Thanx for the comments on Fuji RICOHJPN, i know a place to buy those by the piece, i will try one. What worried me was that you burned them at 2.4x, is it not possible at 4x/6x with current firmwares for a09?

No, currently I think the only DL media that A09 will write to at higher than 2.4x speeds is MKM. Everything else is 2.4x. I'm sure it will change soon, once Pioneer realizes that Ricoh DL media is actually as good if not even better than Verbatim's. Honestly, I was quite pessimistic when I bought those Fuji/Ricoh's, and even the recorded dye doesn't seem to look as uniform as Verbatim's when recorded on A09XL (though at lower than 4x speeds nothing really looks pretty when recorded on A09XL ), but the great recognition times, playback quality and KProbe scans speak for themselves. So, the quality DL manufacturer monopoly is finally over with!

[lordsmurf]

DVD+R DL is not 100% either. It's in the 60-70s range or so.

I refuse to stick my neck out and "guarantee" discs I create will work on "every" device. That's a stupid statement for anybody to make. Even pressed discs do not share that figure because there is always going to be some backwards-ass drive or player that does not work correctly.

I don't prefer DVD+R DL because it doesn't work much better than DVD+RW/DVD-RW or DVD+R and that's not good enough. If DVD-R DL is the same, I probably will not be using it either.

It would be preferable to have twice as many DVD-R discs and provide multi-disc cases. Or use extended recording modes for when longer content is required.

When I create DVD-Video discs, I don't expect them to be played on computer. I do not care if they play on computers. I do not care about any of that. The #1 most important aspect is do DVD players accept the media, and can it be seen in another DVD burner. That is all.

And to say you are "positive" the booktype caused the error is an unfounded statement. That's only a guess. The truth is we do not know why those 4 players did not play the media. It could be something as easy as the layer break data being read wrong. I've seen that on pressed discs.

If DVD+R DL is better for computer DVD-ROM drive, that just gives more prominence to the years-old ideas that DVD+R is for data and DVD-R is for video. From a video aspect, I don't really care about a laptop DVD-ROM.

There are lots of unknowns in tests. The only way to accurately gauge media quality is prolonged tests in a "safe" environment with experienced individuals. Magazines rarely have that. At most, it's a fun test to give you ideas for a more thorough one.

[Scobo]

@ Blackadder,

My first go at burning a DVD+R DL with a Pioneer A09 resulted in a coaster.
I used DVD decrypter which froze half way through the burn although
I think this was a problem with decrypter as I had the same result
with a single layer disc.
I'm sticking with Nero for the time being as I've had no problems with it.

You say the Pioneer automatically burns +r DL's with DVD-ROM book type so will this apply to all software including Nero and if I burn a .ISO image created with DVD decrypter will this also result in a DVD-ROM book type ?

[-jsl-]

Some interesting DL tests have been done by the Japanese "YSS" website here, here and here (translation by Babelfish).

In short the only software that set the layer break info for DVD-R DL looks to be Recordnow 7.31. The tested Pioneer DV-555 was therefore only able to read the second layer of the DVD-R DL burned with this software. This is essentially the same problem as for DVD+R DL although other softwares work in some cases, see tests here and here.

However one of the tested five DVD players (a Cyberhome) was unable to read the second layer of the DVD-R DL even when burned with Recordnow while it read the DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM book type. This indicates that not all of DVD-R DLs compatibility problems are due to software problems but probably also due to the book type.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

That's a stupid statement for anybody to make.

Regarding stupid statements you follow up with some quite good yourself:

-I don't prefer DVD+R DL because it doesn't work much better than DVD+RW/DVD-RW or DVD+R and that's not good enough.

-If DVD+R DL is better for computer DVD-ROM drive, that just gives more prominence to the years-old ideas that DVD+R is for data and DVD-R is for video.

[Edmund Blackadder]

-jsl-, thanks for the Japanese info. It pretty much confirmed my findings about RecordNow 7.3 abilities in DL department.

@ Blackadder,

My first go at burning a DVD+R DL with a Pioneer A09 resulted in a coaster.
I used DVD decrypter which froze half way through the burn although
I think this was a problem with decrypter as I had the same result
with a single layer disc.
I'm sticking with Nero for the time being as I've had no problems with it.

I have never burned DVD+R DL in DVD Decrypter. Also, Nero is really bad for DL burning, its DL burns are not compatible with a lot of DVD players. If you want it to really work for you I would advise you to extract DVD into VIDEO_TS folder using DVD Decrypter and then burn VIDEO_TS in Data Mode using RecordNow 7.3. It worked for me every single time for the last year.

You say the Pioneer automatically burns +r DL's with DVD-ROM book type so will this apply to all software including Nero and if I burn a .ISO image created with DVD decrypter will this also result in a DVD-ROM book type ?

Yes, when recording to DVD+R DL, Pioneer A09 sets booktype automatically to DVD-ROM. You don't have to worry about setting it in software like with some other burners. In fact, when using A09, you could not burn your DVD+R DL with DVD+R DL booktype even if you wanted to ! So it's always going to be DVD-ROM for +DL. However, for -DL the booktype will be DVD-R. Also A09 records DVD+R with DVD+R booktype, not with DVD-ROM. DVD-ROM only applies to DVD+R DL media on A09.

[Scobo]

Ok, just burned an image with Nero but the only thing that reads the disc is the Pioneer burner itself !
My logix 3000 and Philips recorder both show "no disc".
The disc info tools in both Nero and DVD decypter showed the book type of the blank disc as DVD+R DL.
What am I missing here ?
By the way, I have a 109 not A09 (1.40 firmware). Don't know if this makes a difference.

[lenti_75]

I don't want to start a war here again, BUT +R DL will win. WHY ?

simple as that, a player is not supposed to play a -R DL as DL, but as single layer, he knows that a DVD-ROM is dual layer.

the ideea is this, as long as -R DL can't change the booktype tp ROM, it is just a piece of expensive shit.

And Lordsmurf, I know your LOVE for pioneer and -R media, but +R media is better, i've been using i for the last 2 yrs and it can play on every player I tried to, even 4 yrs old ones.
it's time to admit it, even for you

SO, even taht you say now that you will not use DL, you would if the price would be good.
I would too, why have 2 discs when you can have 1 ??????? that is stupid.

as a said before, I"M A +R MANIAC never used -, and + will win the war, just because of a stupid minor thing.....BOOKTYPE. whoo cares if it was supposed to be data or video

can anybody try ULEAD ? they have DL burning option on their new Movie factory....

[leebo]

This issue has been talked to near-death in Edmond Blackadders definative DVD DL thread. The solution is to be found there. Search for it and you will find your answer.

[Scobo]

Sorry.
My mistake.
I thought this site was called VideoHelp.com

[leebo]

And my telling you where to get your help is????

[Scobo]

Er, no.
You told me to go and look for it myself.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Ok, just burned an image with Nero but the only thing that reads the disc is the Pioneer burner itself !
The disc info tools in both Nero and DVD decypter showed the book type of the blank disc as DVD+R DL.
What am I missing here ?
By the way, I have a 109 not A09 (1.40 firmware). Don't know if this makes a difference.

Scobo,

1. Don't ever use Nero for DL burning. Please trust me on that one.

2. When not yet recorded, in other words when blank, DVD+R DL booktype will show as DVD+R DL. It will only become DVD-ROM after you finalize the disc on your Pioneer burner.

3. Pioneer 109 and A09 are a little different in hardware department, but they record in the same way.

4. Try RecordNow 7.3 in Data Mode.

And if you still have some unanswered questions about DL burning and authoring, you will most likely find them here:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225001

I don't want to start a war here again, BUT +R DL will win

I completely agree. And I agree that it's mostly because of the booktype issue. I haven't tried Ulead because I'm settled with RecordNow 7.3 and don't want to test my luck again. It ain't broke for me, so I'm not going to try to fix it .

[Scobo]

Many thanks Blackadder.
You've been most helpfull (unlike some).
Having checked the burned disc again it does indeed now show as DVD-ROM book type.
Guess I'll have to ditch Nero for DL's.
One thing I noticed when checking the default burn options in Nero was that "finalize" is not selected.
Do you think this would make any difference ?
I'm not keen to waste another DL.

[leebo]

And if you still have some unanswered questions about DL burning and authoring, you will most likely find them here:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225001

How un-helpful!!!

[Edmund Blackadder]

One thing I noticed when checking the default burn options in Nero was that "finalize" is not selected.
Do you think this would make any difference ?
I'm not keen to waste another DL.

What I meant by finalize was not something that you do yourself. It's the process your burner will do automatically on write-once DVD (such as DVD-R/+R/+R DL) after all the data was already written. If it didn't finalize automatically, none of your DVD's would be recognized in any devices except for the burner where they were burned .

[Scobo]

Yes, I've read that write-once discs don't require the software to be set to finalize but on the other hand my problem is exactly as you say.
That is that none of my DVD players or the DVD-ROM drive in my laptop read the disc. Only the Pioneer reads it.
The problem could also be the brand I'm using.
I just wish I read this thread before shelling out for 4 Ritek DL's !
Anyway, I just downloaded a trial of Movie Factory 4 and will give it a go next.

[Scobo]

Result !
Movie Factory 4 has an option to close a non-finalized disc so I applied this to the DL I previously burned with Nero which would not play in anything except the Pioneer burner.
After 3 minutes I now have an exact backup of Lord of the rings which plays perfectly in everything !!

[thor300]

Congrats Scobo, so ritek wasnt wasted money after all =) By the way, dvddecrypter can also close unfinalized disks. Rightclick on the dvd burner in the destination listbox (when in ISO write mode) and point to Close.

[Scobo]

Ok, I've just burned a second disc (Traxdata/Ritek) with Nero this time selecting "finalize" and the disc works first time.
Having said that, my Philips DVDR75 seems to have trouble with the second layer but my 5 year old Logix 3000, my laptops' DVD-Rom drive and my sons' PS2 all play the disc right through no problem.

[Mickey79]

Ave,

Does anyone know if the Verbatim DVD-R DL are available anywhere yet? I have a Pioneer DVR108 burner... i'm going to try and burn using that, and hopefully the DVD will play in my Panasonic home theater... it doesn't play any DVD+R which is why i need to try the DVD-R DL.

Thanks,
Mickey

[-jsl-]

For a start the DVR-108 doesn't even support burning DVD-R DL, only DVD+R DL. Chances are however slim that DVD-R DL will work in your DVD player if DVD+R DL doesn't work. But have you really tried burning good DVD+R DL media (like MKM/Verbatim) with DVD-ROM book type (it should be auto-set on the DVR-108 though) and using good software (like Recordnow)?

Just because single layer DVD+R doesn't work when burned on the DVR-108 doesn't mean that DVD+R DL won't work because for some stupid reason Pioneer's original firmware only supports "bitsetting" for DVD+R DL and not for DVD+R SL. You can however flash it with a Piodata firmware if you want to burn DVD+R SL with DVD-ROM book type too. Your Panasonic player will then likely read single layer DVD+R without problems.

MKM DVD-R DL is out in Japan but you will likely have to wait some weeks before it shows up under MKM's Verbatim brand in US.

[leebo]

You can however flash it with a Piodata firmware if you want to burn DVD+R SL with DVD-ROM book type too. Your Panasonic player will then likely read single layer DVD+R without problems.

Do you know if that FW is unlocked (rip speed)?

If so, where can we find it? Codeguys?

[-jsl-]

http://gradius.rpc1.org/

[leebo]

Thanks.

[Mawdryn]

1. Don't ever use Nero for DL burning. Please trust me on that one.

Excuse me Edmund (and I am a huge fan of your show by the way), but I just wanted to defend Nero. I know you had trouble with DL burning with Nero early on. I was not burning DL yet at that time, but I was reading your posts here. By the time I started (last September), Nero had apparently worked out the bugs.

I have burned about 40 DL disks with Nero and all have worked perfectly. Most of them were burned as "on the fly" copies. The others I burned were image files created either with Nero or DVD Decrypter. I have never however, tried burning a DL disk with Nero in data mode (although I use data mode for single layer all the time).

DVD Decrypter also works perfectly for me. I use ISO read mode to create the image file, and then burn with ISO write mode. I've burned about 20 DL disks this way and all have worked perfectly.

I have never tried RecordNow as you suggest. I've meant to, but since Nero and DVD Decrypter work so well for me, I haven't bothered to take a chance with anything else yet.

I just wanted to set the record straight that whatever problems Nero may have had early on with DL, it has worked perfectly since September. At least for me.

[Scobo]

The version of Nero I'm using is the latest on Aheads' site (6.6) but again checking the "finalize" option seems to be the key with DL media.
This has made a big difference to the players I have as they would not even read the discs I burned without finalizing.
Never had this bother with single layer discs though.