JVC's TBC/NR button

[ebelgee]

With everyone help on this group I purchased the JVC HR-S991U, Data Video TBC and Elite Video BVP4. My question is when and when not to use the JVC TBC/NR button. I am going from the JVC into the TBC 1000 with the TBC/NR button on the JVC on. Everything seems to be great. I push it off, and I see the picture change a slight bit, maybe a little less tight and less stable. Is this the NR working? Or is it the JVC TBC? If I leave it on then this does means I am using two TBC’s ? (The JVC’s and the Data Video). Is this bad ? There is no function to use only the NR on the JVC. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I should run this combination?

Thanks in advance,

-Pete

[V20]

I've bought nearly the same combination (JVC 9911, Elite BVP-4+ and Datavideo TBC-100).

As for the JVC TBC/DNR, if you see the vertical lines straighten out a bit and the picture looks a little more stable, that is the TBC working.

If your video has any noise, edge artifacts, etc. you'll see the DNR effects on that.

The TBC on the JVC is a 'line TBC', which has different effects than the 'full frame' TBC of the Datavideo. While they are both called time base correctors, they each do different things. One will not sub for the other. The Datavideo will help with frames being dropped and keeping the audio/video in sync.

In my limited experience, the JVC's TBC generally does NOT help with those two problems. It CAN help with things such as horizontal time-base errors, video skewing (sometimes!), vertical and horizontal jitter, etc. What it does correct though, it does very well, and it can fix problems with video that cannot be corrected AFTER the signal leaves the VCR.

But every videotape is different. You just have to try on each tape and decide for yourself if the JVC's TBC improves things or not. Generally though, I've found using both TBC's helps.

Again, in my limited experience, I have had NO problems whatsoever with dropped frames and audio/video sync issues since I started using the Datavideo. I was having problems before, with some videotapes.

There are some great threads on this, let me see if I can find some to point you to.

[lordsmurf]

There are some great threads on this, let me see if I can find some to point you to.

I think you just did an excellent job explaining the TBC.

[V20]

Thank you Lordsmurf, coming from you that's a real complement.

[V20]

Here's a good thread that shows how the JVC's TBC corrects horizontal time base errors:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=252957

The Datavideo does nothing to help these kind of errors, BUT in this example it corrects the frame dropping/sync problems that the JVC couldn't fix.

So the JVC 'line' TBC fixed one kind of problem and the Datavideo full frame TBC fixed the other.

Sometimes you need both.

[ebelgee]

Wow thanks for a the help. The link was extremely informative.

-Pete

[lordsmurf]

So the JVC 'line' TBC fixed one kind of problem and the Datavideo full frame TBC fixed the other. Sometimes you need both.

Make that a trio.

The device inside the new Panasonic ES10 (which may or may not be a TBC, line TBC at most, if it is) will stabilize sync errors that create jerking at the top of a damaged signal. It will work when the JVC S-VHS will not. Or in team-up with the JVC S-VHS. The recorder itself sucks, but used as a pass-through device, the results have been quite nice. The TBC-1000 still tackles jitter MUCH better, as well as is the only device in the chain of removing MV or harsh errors mistaken for MV. Each has earned itself a spot.

I now run a triple-TBC setup for restoration. Coupled with a proc amp and detailer. Bad tapes, beware!

[jrank001]

Lordsmurf. What model/brand TBC's are in your triple set up? How do you have them wired?

Thanks

[payton34]

Lordsmurf,

What proc amp and detailer do you use? or recommend?

[lordsmurf]

Here goes the current setup:

(A) off air recordings...
cable/antenna in ->
JVC HR-S9800 (composite out) ->
DataVideo TBC-1000 ->
JVC DR-M10S DVD recorder -or-
ATI All In Wonder card (for long jobs, or AVI work)

(B) restoration... all on s-video...
JVC HR-S7965EK (PAL) + PAL-NTSC converter box -or-
Samsung 5000W worldwide VCR ->
JVC HR-S3800 (for misaligned tapes) ->
JVC HR-S9800 (w/TBC) ->
Panasonic ES10 DVD recorder (for TBC/filter only) ->
DataVideo TBC-1000 ->
Elite BVP-4 Plus ->
SignVideo DR-1000 detailer ->
JVC DR-M10S DVD recorder (most used) -or-
ATI All In Wonder capture card -or-
Avermedia PCI capture card (rarely used)

The only thing to note is you cannot have BOTH a composite and s-video in at the SAME TIME on the TBC-1000, so I swap them out as needed. This is on the front of the unit, so super-easy, takes only a second.

Chaining that much hardware "in theory" degrades the signal but "in practice" it usually does not. Stuff is rewired to shorten the trip when needed, or bypass hardware. All monster or other high grade wiring, no junk.

Yes, I use TBC-1000 for off-air stuff. Broadcast signals can be unstable, and some cable/satellite channels try to inject anti-copy into the signal. Not common, but happens. Just assume use the TBC-1000 and have no worries.

The 3 TBCs in use are:

JVC HR-S7965EK (PAL) -or- JVC HR-S9800 (NTSC)
Panasonic ES10 DVD recorder (use for filters only, the recording sucks)
DataVideo TBC-1000

The JVC's clean noise, reduce chroma noise, and stabilize the video
The Panasonic stabilizes even more than the JVC. Sync filters, maybe not truly a TBC.
The TBC-1000 helps on stability too, especially jitter and other jerky movements. Also removes fake and real copy protection.

Each does a different job. And they do them well.
Tapes previously set aside as "impossible" are now converting pretty much perfectly. And I'm talking about some pretty messed up tapes too.

[payton34]

Sir Lordsmurf,

I plan on buying the Canopus avdv300 and the Datavideo TBC 1000. Is it a good idea when converting VHS tapes to only use the TBC 1000 when there is a VHS tape that can benefit from it. Theory being the less hardware the signal is passed thru the better. Or would you recommend always using the TBC 1000, even if conversion is just as good withhout using the TBC 1000?

Thanks,


Mark

[lordsmurf]

The TBC should never hurt. Let your eyes be your guide. The ADVC300 filters are a bit overhyped, so I hope you're not putting too much faith into them.

[payton34]

Sir Lordsmurf,

You mentioned about the avdv300 filters being over hyped.

Do you think I would be wise in most instances to use the avdv300 as a stand alone converter with all there filters turned off?

Would I get better results if I purchased Sign Video's DR 1000 detailer and also their PA 100 to do the same tasks I other wise would have the avdv300 do?

What is your honest opinion of Canopus' avdv300 in terms of just converting anolog to digital?

Thanks,

Mark

[lordsmurf]

If you just want that, and you insist on DV, get the ADVC100. It does a good job of converting clean signals to DV AVI for editing. You would do better to get a JVC S-VHS VCR to clean the video up, not rely on digital devices further down the chain. By then, it's often too late to fix a handful of common issues.

The DR-1000 is a detailer. The PA-100 is a proc amp.

[payton34]

Sir Lordsmurf,

I already have the JVC HRS9911U. Are you saying that a detailer and proc amp would be a waste because I already have this JVC VCR. If my concern is the best quality conversion to DVD. Shouldn't I have these stand alone hardware solutions such as the PA100, DR1000 as well as a TBC1000 and or a avdv300 or avdv100?

Thanks,

Mark

[lordsmurf]

No, not what I'm saying. Each of those has a purpose. I suggest some more reading if you're not sure what those purposes are yet.

DR-1000 = detailer
PA-100 - proc amp
JVC S-VHS = filters for video (plus line TBC)
TBC-1000 = full frame TBC
Canopus = capture cards only, DV AVI only

[payton34]

Sir Lordsmurf,

Thanks for your time. I have been doing alot of research on web sites including yours, which is great! I am trying to keep my questions to a minimum for each post. I only hope they are reasonalby inteligent and offer other people a benifet when you answer them.

The ony reason I prefer DV AVI capture is because I plan on editing with an NLE. You mentioned Canopus capture cards.

Are you referring to the avdv110 and avdv300, or are you talking about one of the other Canopus' internal PC cards that hardware encode on the fly to either DV AVI or mpeg 2?

If so, what would be the advantage of these cards over the stand alone units, if any?

Assuming DV AVI is the goal on a particular project. I was under the impression that hardware encoding on the fly though faster, did not always yield as good results as non-realtime software encoding using something like Canopus' Procoder 2. Is this generally true?

Thanks,

Mark

[lordsmurf]

If you want to edit, forget MPEG-2 capturing. DV AVI is a solid choice. There are several cards to do this, and the external ADVC-100 is fine for it.

Adding more hardware, like the S-VHS VCRs, TBC, proc amps, etc., will only add to the ability to make higher quality DVDs from your source.

[payton34]

Sir Lordsmurf,

It is all becoming much clearer to me now. Sounds like any image enhancement, i.e. sharpening, color corection, should be done on the fly in real time before the conversion to digital. Not later in an NLE after the video data has already been encoded and compresssed. The next issue is how to make the enhancements. From what I gather so far, you prefer to use hardware like proc amps and detailers like the PA 100 and DR 1000 made by Sign video. These devices have actual knobs you turn as opposed to the Canopus' avdv300 which uses a software interface for making the same enhancements. With this logic I can see why using the avdv300 instead if the avdv110 would be redundant.

My only concern would be that the above hardware configuration would not allow me to hook up a monitor while capturing. If I understand correctly the avdv300 has this capability during the capture process. Of course this is important as it is more benificial to see the video after the conversion process.

I am not exactly sure the right order of the hardware chain. Is it like this:

JVC HRS9911U>Datavideo TBC1000>Sign video PA 100>Sign video DR 1000>Canopus avdv110>PC fire wire port.

I figure you should correct the color with the PA 100 before you detail it with the DR 1000. I am using Photoshop CS logic here, as you would always color correct and adjust levels before sharpening. Does my logic apply here?

Thanks,

Mark

[lordsmurf]

Many of these devices have multiple outputs. I have a tv monitor out of my last object in the chain. The other output goes to the computer. So yes, you can watch on tv and computer at same time.

[ronnylov]

I have a JVC HR-S 7700 PAL VCR with internal line TBC but no other TBC or stabilizer than that. On some tapes I have quick vertical jumps and sometimes small vertical movement like the picture moves up or down one or two pixels. But there's no horizontal movement in the picture and vertical lines are straight so I guess the line TBC is working.

I am capturing with a Terratec Cinergy 400 but I do also have an old ATI AIW Radeon but I have the same problems with both capture cards so I think it is the source, not the capture device which causes it.

Will a TBC-1000 help me stabilize the vertical movement?

I am playing with multiple captures and avisynth scripts to decrease the vertical shakyness but it's time consuming and still not perfect results...

[gshelley61]

Will a TBC-1000 help me stabilize the vertical movement?

Yes, it is possible that the TBC-1000 will fix that. Here's an interesting alternative... according to lordsmurf, the built-in line TBC/Synch in the new Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD recorder works very well and "passes through" the stabilized signal so it can be captured by another device (like your computer). They are about $100 less than a TBC-1000 and might be worth a try.

[Fos]

Is there any ways , to put off the tbc and the DN reduction on?

[ronnylov]

It seems that the price of the Panasonic DMR-ES10 and the Datavideo TBC-1000 is about the same here in Europe. Which one is better as picture stabilizer if I would buy only one of them?

[lordsmurf]

Small vertical jumps, jitter? The TBC-1000. Reason I bought mine.

Tearing or mid-screen waviness? ES10 or JVC S-VHS ....

The ES10 and JVC act differently, and therefore complement each other nicely.

[Fos]

Small vertical jumps, jitter? The TBC-1000. Reason I bought mine.

Tearing or mid-screen waviness? ES10 or JVC S-VHS ....

The ES10 and JVC act differently, and therefore complement each other nicely.

The Small vertical jumps could be correct with a Sima MV hack?

[DVWannaB]

good and informative thread. Thanks for that note, Lordsmurf concerning the Panasonic ES10. I have some VHS tapes that suffer from the jitters, even using the JVC 9800 SVHS and a Datavideo TBC-1000. I will give that a try for sure. See Circuit City has them for $179.

Also Lordsmurf, in your chain, what setting do you use on the JVC 9800 to stop the jitter? Video Stabilizer on OR TBC/NR on? Thanks.

[lordsmurf]

Also Lordsmurf, in your chain, what setting do you use on the JVC 9800 to stop the jitter? Video Stabilizer on OR TBC/NR on? Thanks.

Yes.

I try anything. All filters on, all off. TBC, stabilizer, nothing, etc.

You may also want to read this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/weblog
The bottom tip talks about the JVC S-VHS and jitter removal tips.

[DVWannaB]

good gouge in that link. it was right on the money. i did just as instructed and it worked like a charm. thanks a lot.