Sony Handycam passthru vs. Canopus DV capture card?

[pandeyrajiv]

All,

I have a question for the pane here:

What is a better alternative -

Use my existing Sony TRV25 DV recorder as a passthru to convert VHS analog video to DV and then compress it to MPEG2 using CCE

OR

Buy a Canopus DV capture card (for ex.: ADVC100) to convert VHS analog video to DV and then compress it to MPEG 2 using CCE...

Basically, I want to know whether I should go out and buy a Canopus card or my passthru is at par with the card...If not, then can anyone elighten me as to why they feel the Canopus is better...

Thanks so much

Rajiv

[redwudz]

Pass through or Canopus both do the same thing and output the same DV. Really no difference, though the Canopus has a few other features. If your camcorder pass through works for you, I'd stick with it.

[Richard_G]

The Canopus is only better if you have no need for a camcorder.

[m2x]

i use passthru on my trv33 and it works great.

[lenti_75]

if you have it, use it, no need for canopus.
teh output is the same, unless you need more options, which I doubt

[pandeyrajiv]

Thank you everyone for this feedback! That is what I had expected, but I wanted to validate my conclusions...

However, I do have one follow up question...How is it that both the camcorder passthru and the Canopus card will output the same DV? Asked in another way - Isn't there something to be said for the "analog to digital" conversion which the camcorder or the Canopus card goes through within its own self that could result in a difference in picture quality? Is it not possible to get two slightly different outputs for the same input given these two converters....

Thanks

Rajiv

[edDV]

All,
...
What is a better alternative -

Use my existing Sony TRV25 DV recorder as a passthru to convert VHS analog video to DV and then compress it to MPEG2 using CCE


OR

Buy a Canopus DV capture card (for ex.: ADVC100) to convert VHS analog video to DV and then compress it to MPEG 2 using CCE...

Basically, I want to know whether I should go out and buy a Canopus card or my passthru is at par with the card...If not, then can anyone elighten me as to why they feel the Canopus is better...

Thanks so much

Rajiv

They are essentially similar but the Canopus ADVC-100 has advantages for NTSC setup processing.

If you use the camcorder pass-through feature to record a NTSC source (VHS, TV tuner, etc.), 7.5 IRE (black level) setup will be passed through as well for most camcorders that I have sampled. 7.5 IRE setup will place blacks at digital level 32 instead of the correct level of 16 (0 IRE for DV and DVD spec).

To make an in spec DVD, the black level should be post processed back down to digital level 16 (0 IRE). If you do this, the DVD will be authored correctly with black at 16 and white at 235. A NTSC DVD player will process the image properly at 16-235 levels to the D/A. After D/A, the NTSC DVD player will add 7.5 IRE setup to Y and NTSC outputs. This will put black at a similar level to other NTSC analog inputs and all is well.

If you don't process the black and keep it at the 32 level, the DVD will be recorded with 7.5 IRE setup. The NTSC DVD player will then add another 7.5 IRE setup after the D/A presenting 15 IRE black to the TV which is 7.5% too high. Since the TV will be referencing blanking for AGC, all blacks will look grayish from the DVD input.

The Canopus ADVC-100 has a Switch 2 mode that will automatically capture 7.5 IRE NTSC black to level 16 and 100 IRE white to level 235. No further processing is required.

...
However, I do have one follow up question...How is it that both the camcorder passthru and the Canopus card will output the same DV? Asked in another way - Isn't there something to be said for the "analog to digital" conversion which the camcorder or the Canopus card goes through within its own self that could result in a difference in picture quality? Is it not possible to get two slightly different outputs for the same input given these two converters....
Rajiv

The quality of the Canopus and Sony hardware DV codecs are similar. Canopus used to talk about how they licensed the Sony technology so that either codec will produce identical results. This is probably still true.

I've used consumer and prosumer camcorders from Sony and the Canopus ADVC and see no difference in codec quality among the 3 although I've noticed some minor analog white level error from the NTSC output of my Sony Digital8 camcorder but the input is correct.

So bottom line, they all perform near equally for NTSC input to DV conversion with the exception of black level processing.

[The_Doman]

Isn't there something to be said for the "analog to digital" conversion which the camcorder or the Canopus card goes through within its own self that could result in a difference in picture quality?

I don't have a canopus DV-card here so I can't really compare.
But when I feed my VHS recordings through my D8-TRV120 DV (PAL) camera the result is a perfect stabilized picture.
The capture is rock-solid without the horizontal jitter/movement you see often in VHS captures made without a TBC.
The resulting DVD's (using procoder) really look great.
(Sometimes people could not even believe the recording came from VHS!)

[inaki]

Before I used sony trv-30E (pal) for passthrough for my personal whsc tapes to dv. In the secod pass I used Adobe Premiere with videoserver to tmpgenc(better) or cce for encoding to mpeg2.
Now I use avermedia dvd ezmaker pci gold directly to mpeg2 by hardware, and I coud tell that the difference is none for the limited quality of the source and you save a lot of time in the process.
This kind of card have other advantages too, like I explain in another place.

[pandeyrajiv]

edDV,

Thanks you so much for this deeper and more technical explanation...armed with that information, I feel I am fine with what I have and no need to shell out the extra bucks for a Canopus card...

With that said, given that the black levels are off in my camcorder DV conversion capture, what is the best type of setting I can use with CCE or even ProCoder and TmpgEnc to correct that during the MPEG2 compression phase? I prefer to use CCE as it does the best job, but when in a hurry, I like the one stop point and click of ProCoder or TmpgEnc and hence the question for all the major tools...

Thanks again for this enlightening info.

Regards

Rajiv

[edDV]

Look for a feature in the encoder to either remove NTSC setup or otherwise set blacks to digital level 16 (0 IRE).

I use Premiere or Vegas for encoding so I have the advantage of being able to observe levels on the waveform monitor before encoding. If 7.5 IRE setup is present, Premiere and Vegas have proc amp (levels) filters to adjust black back to level 16 before encoding.

I seem to remember a setup removal switch in Procoder but I don't have a copy here.

[pandeyrajiv]

edDV,

Thanks yet again!

I also have Vegas, so I will look into it. I am sure CCE and the others have similar setup as well.

Again a followup question ...I have read that DV is NOT the most preferred AVI format of capture and there were better AVI codecs out there...Given an assumption that space and speed are not an issue, what is the best AVI codec to capture analog video for compression to DVD quality MPEG2?

How come the studio DVD's comeup with such near perfect videos when I cannot seem to get the same results no matter how I try...I know they have an ability to insert key I frames in the stream, but still there has to be a way we consumers can get close...I find DV tends to saturate the bright spots with too much contrast (hope that makes sense)...

[edDV]

The DV camcorder standard is perfectly mached to DVD encoding with minimal processing. They both follow the same CCIR-601 (D1) standard sampling and levels. I'd say, stay DV. It's the same basic standard used by broadcasters.

As for reasons why commercial DVD's look better, see this recent thread
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=264730&highlight=

and feel free to ask more.

[schematic2]

EdDV said:
To make an in spec DVD, the black level should be post processed back down to digital level 16 (0 IRE). If you do this, the DVD will be authored correctly with black at 16 and white at 235

edDV, how does one do this from inside Vegas4?

Thanks

[edDV]

I jumped to Vegas at v5. I assume v4 has the levels filter and the color bar but no waveform monitor?

Try to match video black to color bar black. Same for the white. Set maximum white (e.g. sky, lights, etc.) to the white box of the SMPTE color bar pattern.

[pandeyrajiv]

edDV,

Thanks for the pointer to that thread again! Its EXACTLY the essence of what I was asking about as well - that loss in quality between the source and target...

Now what I am about to ask and say is perhaps best suited for cross posting between that thread and this one (more so for that)...

On that thread, u explained about tripods, lighting, pans and zooms etc...Thats all well and good when you have home videos...but I have an example that goes beyond all that....here it is...

I recently got my hands on the orginal 1080i HDTV .TS stream of a PBS concert program featuring the band Phish...I then used Canopus ProCoder using "Mastering Quality" to compress it down to a DVD qual. MPEG2....Which looked great, but obviously not as good as the HD source (which BTW I am able to enjoy in all it glory on my HD set by transferring it via firewire to my JVC D-VHS VCR and play it back)

Anyhow, they recently released that very show on DVD...which to cut a long story short is much better qual. than my "mastering quality" DVD that I made...

I guess you were right, they compress stuff at a frame level to get the best results and that is why it looks better...but all I can say is that I could not come close to what the commercial DVD looked like (wihich BTW was the same show frame for frame)...

[edDV]

...

I guess you were right, they compress stuff at a frame level to get the best results and that is why it looks better...but all I can say is that I could not come close to what the commercial DVD looked like (wihich BTW was the same show frame for frame)...

They were encoding off the HDCam master tape (144 - 440Mb/s). You were encoding off a 19Mb/s TS stream. They probably did some processing that optimized the 720x480 downsize and their encoders are better than your encoders.

As we speak, I'm capping the Gram Parsons Tribute Concert off Comcast InHD with S-Video from a Motorola 6200 HD cable box to the Canopus ADVC and realtime encoding to 720x480 MPeg2 with the Mainconcept encoder. The result isn't HD or even EDTV, but it sure is nice. The source quality makes most of the difference in encoder performance.

I'd get a bit better DVD if I first capped to DV but that would take hours to process into a DVD. When this finishes I'll have a DVD in 15 min.