High-Def's Holy Grail: Superior Copy Protection

[bosss7]

All I can say is, for every taller wall, there is a taller ladder.
Someone has mentioned earlier no one has cracked the SACD and DVD-A format. From what I've seen, at the moment they're still an audiophile thing and probably aren't worth the effort for pirates who want to make some sort of money on their discoveries by getting lots of people to buy it. It's a bit like software. If it's not popular, there is a less likely chance you'll find a pirated/cracked copy.
But when they (the audio formats) become popular, just watch how easy they'll be to copy.

As for this HD protection shite, I give it one year.

It doesn't have to be hacked. Just bypassed.

[AlecWest]

I agree. However, because those converter boxes will downconvert to standard definition, there will not be any point in owning HD-DVD titles or even a player.

That's the point. Unless the middle class consumer is convinced that the technology is worth it, they'll opt for the cheaper alternative. HD could be the 21st Century equivalent of Quadraphonic Stereo in the 1970s ... a big dream, a "wave of the future" that crashed on empty shores (and pocketbooks).

[Thomas Davie]

Network connection in order to watch a physically rented title: not gonna happen.

Phone Connection to watch a physically rented copy: not gonna happen.

Photo to watch a physically rented copy: not gonna happen.

ID to watch a physically rented copy: not gonna happen (issues of age to the contrary notwithstanding)

Credit card to watch a physically rented copy: not gonna happen.

This is just plain BS. Encrypt it up the wazoo for all I care, but the above will not happen.

Tom

[AlecWest]

Network connection in order to watch a physically rented title: not gonna happen.

Already happening (pay-per-view). Cable companies do log who's watching what. And putting a watermark on such signals is easy. But, if you mean HD quality....

Phone Connection to watch a physically rented copy: not gonna happen.

...that could happen. 15 miles from where I am right now, Verizon is installing fiber-optic cables capable of ultra-broadband speeds ... more than enough to carry a single HD signal to a single consumer. And again, a watermark could be attached to each signal. If a movie studio attached watermark #123455789 to a given rental, and that watermark showed up on some pirated copies, they could go right back to the rental source.

Still this would be a tough nut to crack on a physical HD-DVD.

Of course, the "rub" in all this will be the price $$$ ... and whether or not people are willing to pay it.

[ebenton]

As far as having your HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player hooked up to your phone line is concerned: That didn't work very well with DIVX, back in 1999, did it? This will be especially unwelcome if giving out a credit card number and being charged for something each time you connect is involved.

[Heff]

I agree. However, because those converter boxes will downconvert to standard definition, there will not be any point in owning HD-DVD titles or even a player. If a normal DVD can give you the same exact result, plus you don't have to buy a new player, plus you can play it anywhere, plus you can back it up anytime you want to - I see the same niche market doom for HD-DVD/BD as what it is now for DVD-Audio/SACD.

Here again you keep ignoring the HTPC, it will be able to play HD copies in full resolution. And you are saying that no company (all the Chinese firms) will have the desire to come out with a player that will play HD recordables. What's stopping them? You got to have players that will play HD recorders for the home HD camcorder is coming down the pike. Like I said even then you can build an HTPC that will play HD backup movies in full resolution.

[Thomas Davie]

Network connection in order to watch a physically rented title: not gonna happen.

Already happening (pay-per-view). Cable companies do log who's watching what. And putting a watermark on such signals is easy. But, if you mean HD quality....

I'll respectfully disagree with you. This is, as of yet not happening on physically rented material. Does the technology exist? Of course it does. A download stream from my cable company is not a physical material. Heck, for all my cable company knows it is my dogs that are renting all of those horror movies

Tom

[satviewer2000]

What happens if one were to borrow one of these movies from a video rental place like Block Busters? Will they keep a massive list of names and addresses of who rented which HD-DVD when and where?

The 2nd thing is that CPU's will continue to get faster. So what may have taken an older CPU to decipher in years, may take a new Pentium XII 1.0 TeraHz computer to decipher in mere minutes (not even considering the use of a massively parallel network).

Where there's a will, there's a way. But unfortunately, I think in the end, HD-DVD will fail simply because there are not currently enough people who own HDTV's to buy the things. The number of HDTV owners is miniscule compared to the masses who own SDTV's who bought regular DVD's.

[AlecWest]

I'll respectfully disagree with you.

And well you should (grin). I admit that when I answered your question, the "physically rented" part zipped past me ... until I got to the 3rd paragraph in my post where I said it would be a tough nut to crack on a physical HD disk. Must have been a senior moment, hehe.

In any case, HD technology will have to get a heckuva lot cheaper before the average consumer will plunk down the money for it. My 27" color TV cost me roughly $180. According to PC World, the cheapest HD set is $700 ... and that's only a 17" screen. Right now, HD is only popular with the fairly well-off videophile (and dreamers who wish they were fairly well-off).

[Nilfennasion]

They have to convince Joe & Suzy Sixpack, the middle-class buyer of entertainment equipment and media.

Easy solution to that: make the HD standard progressive rather than interlaced. When people see that the shimmering on fine lines such as the lines of a football field is NOT supposed to be there, and that is a big part of the reason their eyes get tired while watching the superbowl, the progressive solution will look very attractive, indeed.

As for initial costs, the solution to that is also simple. Get into as many homes as can be as fast as can be, eat the initial loss, then make it up on sales of compatible programming in the space between the initial release and that stage we call mass-consumer-acceptance. It is, after all, how CD-DA and SD-DVD managed to be profitable.

[RAAGAAman]

Thomas Davie wrote:
Network connection in order to watch a physically rented title: not gonna happen

It will happen but the Network connection is for extra features on the BD or HD DVD disk. Hollywood wants you to be able to get on the internet and buy crap from them. So some type of on-line store feature.
As far as cracking this, I think it will take a combination of things to crack it. First, one of the features of AACS is that is a player or device has been compromised its key can be revoked. Hollywood will remove your devices key from future titles. So let say you buy that Lasonic Blue laser player and someone hacks it. As soon as Hollywood finds out Lasonics were hacked it will remove your key from future titles. Now the only movie you can play are the ones you purchased before hollywood revoked your key. You can find it in the white paper link below. You have to read between the lines but its there. Second, I know someone has mentioned this already but watermarks will be coming. You will not be able to copy watermarks or info that is written in a non-writable area.
It looks the only way to defeat this it to use a combination of a mod chip and a total reauthoring of the disk.



[/url]http://www.aacsla.com/media/aacs_technical_overview_040721.pdf

RG

[stackner]

[quote="Gurm"][quote="Edmund Blackadder"]

-----------------

And remember, people. Pirates are good. Hackers are GOOD. Want to get a key? Just hack PowerDVD. There WILL be a PowerDVD-HD. Just open it up in a debugger, and watch what it does to unlock the disc. That'll get you your encryption algorithm and a key. BINGO.

-----------------------

BINGO. there will definetly be software HD players. if they can decode the disc then someone out there will figure it out from that sooner or later and i am betting on sooner.

like someone also said we could also be looking at mod chips for our HD dvd players.

we could also be looking at copying the disc from the dvd player over to the pc like the xbox.

however i belive there WILL be a HD dvd-rom and HD dvd burner for the pc without a doubt and there WILL be somekind of HD software player and SOMEONE out there WILL crack to code or make some work around of some type. i also belive it will not take very long as PRO PIRATES will want to jump on HD so they will no doubt be looking at it aswell. with all the hackers and pirate out there today with the resource of the internet and backward engineering of software it will be cracked.

it all comes down to one thing. ANYTHING THAT CAN BE MADE CAN BE UNMADE !!! [/b]

[AlecWest]

Easy solution to that: make the HD standard progressive rather than interlaced.

I dunno. If all people watched were programs with grids (like a football field), the problem would be noticeable. But, people watch soaps and a lot of other programming where the difference isn't so prominent.

As for initial costs, the solution to that is also simple. Get into as many homes as can be as fast as can be, eat the initial loss, then make it up on sales of compatible programming in the space between the initial release and that stage we call mass-consumer-acceptance. It is, after all, how CD-DA and SD-DVD managed to be profitable.

That was also the rationale behind the release of Quadraphonic Stereo back in the 1970s. Industry giants were certain the public would go for it so they made the tools cheap. I know because I bought into both SQ and discrete camps ... and did it on the salary of a Navy Seaman. But, the overwhelming majority of consumers (more affluent than me) remained unconvinced that the technology was "worth it." So, it fizzled.

So far, VOOM has fizzled. And the programming available on HD-Net, their main standalone competitor, appears to have reached a kind of stagnation. The alphabet channels and some established cable/sat channels have HD offerings ... but still only playing to a niche. When I see even one of the alphabet channels offering HD and SD versions of all programming, side-by-side ... and if they can maintain that in the marketplace for at least six months ... then I'll begin to think that Joe & Suzy Sixpack are beginning to accept HD as a wave of "their" future and not just a "toy" for the rich.

[Tom Saurus]

All I know is that I am happy with what we have now. Sure it would be nice to have an even sharper picture, but the price would have to get down to the current price we are paying for what we have today. Unless I was to become super wealthy, I just won't be able to "keep up with the Jones".

I think realistically only the fairly well off can afford such gizmos. I think DVD is a hit, and I think most people are happy with that. What I want as a consumer stable, reliable 8.5 GB disc that are reasonably priced. That seems years away, so this HDTV stuff to me, is just a far off dream.

[solarfox]

So let say you buy that Lasonic Blue laser player and someone hacks it. As soon as Hollywood finds out Lasonics were hacked it will remove your key from future titles.

And as soon as the other 99,999 owners of that same Lasonic Blue player find out that Hollywood has disabled all of their players too, even though they've done nothing wrong, Hollywood will be on the receiving end of a major class-action lawsuit.

[EvilWizardGlick]

HD is just starting to catch on in the US.
We are now seeing HD upconverting dvd players.
VOOM is bought out by DIRECTTV, so the promise of HDTV is still there.
My 42 inch widescreen rptv cost about $1500 three years ago brand new.
Prices have been dropping on these and the hd plasmas.
Unfortunately what may kill hd is a poor economy. When you make minimum wage you can not afford new televisions.
And that is what really drives any market affordability.

[rabg]

Hi Bugster




bugster wrote

What a loda of crap.
I have nothing to hide, but I don't want my name, address and other personal details given out to some mega-corporation just to satisfy it's lust for money. I might need ID where age restrictions or other legal stuff requires it, but no way will I provide ID, and have it all recorded, just on the say so of a few millionaire executives just so they can get richer. Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty"

Just remember that the next time you pay by credit/debit card
unless of course you pay by cash for everything. Do you print
your own money.

It's not the mega rich execs that are affected its the staff/workers
below them the mega rich dont get affected.

Then again if we know what you did for a living we could always rip
you off to see how you would like it.


RabG

[bugster]

Hi Bugster




bugster wrote

What a loda of crap.
I have nothing to hide, but I don't want my name, address and other personal details given out to some mega-corporation just to satisfy it's lust for money. I might need ID where age restrictions or other legal stuff requires it, but no way will I provide ID, and have it all recorded, just on the say so of a few millionaire executives just so they can get richer. Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty"

Just remember that the next time you pay by credit/debit card
unless of course you pay by cash for everything. Do you print
your own money.

It's not the mega rich execs that are affected its the staff/workers
below them the mega rich dont get affected.

Then again if we know what you did for a living we could always rip
you off to see how you would like it.


RabG

First, you quote me out of context, then you completley miss the point.

I don't want to rip anybody off, but neither do I want movie studios and distributors recording every time I purchase a HD-DVD. Sure, I purchase DVD's with a credit card today, but this information is not given straight to the movie companies or some umbrella organisation they set up to track such things, only the retailer knows what I bought and the CC Co knows how much I spent and where.

It's not the mega rich execs that are affected its the staff/workers below them the mega rich dont get affected.

The rich execs get richer, the workers stay on the same (perhaps low) salaries as before.

Then again if we know what you did for a living we could always rip
you off to see how you would like it.

I never said I wanted to rip anyone off, don't read into my statements something that is not there. I am saying I don't want my privacy invaded by these mega corporations (anymore than it already is!) just to be given permission to buy their products. If they want to sell me something, then my money should be good enough for them just as it is for everybody else.

Having said all that, I don't think it will happen. I believe there are enough consumers that would balk at this idea of having to provide ID in order to buy a HD-DVD that it would be commercial suicide.

[Gurm]

I love it when people go "oh, you like your privacy - you MUST BE A CRIMINAL!"...

That's EXACTLY the kind of logic the big companies are using, and it REALLY frosts me. I can be a law-abiding citizen with nothing to hide, but frankly I would prefer that my personal information not be disclosed to someone who will potentially misuse it.

Jesus, is that so hard to understand? I like porn. So does my wife. We watch it together. We're not ashamed of it, but dammit I'd really prefer not to be on a list somewhere of "guys who bought BUTT SLUTS 15 and watched it on their HDTV". Is that so f***ing hard to understand?

WE LIKE OUR PRIVACY. Invade it at your own risk.

[lumis]

thats the way the government see's it too.. "if you have nothing to hide, then show us what you've got".. thats basically saying you're guilty until proven innocent.

[painkiller]

And THAT is exactly why we need to vote out the incumbents from time to time.

[shelbyGT]

And THAT is exactly why we need to vote out the incumbents from time to time.

OMGWTFBBQ?! POLITICKS!?!

[Gurm]

thats the way the government see's it too.. "if you have nothing to hide, then show us what you've got".. thats basically saying you're guilty until proven innocent.

It's the way the current administration would LIKE it to be. Thankfully, every time it starts to go too far, the Supreme Court steps in and bitch-slaps the administration back where it belongs.

[Dr_Layne]

my parents own a dvd-audio/sacd compatible sony player,and owned 1 sacd,pink floyds dark side of the moon.
its quality is sub par,tinny sounding,and generally buggy in playback,pausing,stopping,and the supposed "new master" that sony did for it is shite.
and thats a sony disc in a sony player.
listening to it compared to the version they bought about 8-10 years ago,is like listening to a 192kbps mp3,and comparing it to a 96kbps,or less mp3.
the sound is totally different,add alongside that,the fact they changed the tracks slightly with different times,and starting points,its a sham,at £16 it was,and the cd version was £3.99.
unbelievable.im glad it failed,alongside the absolute ripoff thats dvd-audio.

Then you have a defective player. First off Sony to my knowledge does not make a dvd-audio player. They do support and make SACD players. I have the DSOTM SACD, and it does not skip, pause etc on my Sony SACD/DVD Player.

Steve

[Gurm]

He said "compatible player". And it's WELL known that for SACD to work on ... oh, let's say 2003's top-of-the-line DVD players ... that you had to run the analogue outs for it to sound right. Yeah, that's right. 6 damn audio cables coming out of your unit, because none of the manufacturers could be bothered piping the digital signal straight out the coax or optical.

SACD is a flawed protocol. No point belaboring the issue.

[Nilfennasion]

SACD is a flawed protocol. No point belaboring the issue.

So too is DVD-A, and it looks like HD-DVD, in whatever flavour it comes, will be too. The problem is not the specifications of the format, though. The real problem is that the companies have no idea how to market them. They just happened to be lucky that people were sick to death of videotapes that looked like something I barfed after a couple of hundred viewings when DVD-V was being released. And they even had a few hiccups with that. Ask anyone who doesn't live in America what they think of Region Codes if you want a classic example.

[SatStorm]

What Region Codes?
You mean that defective standalones that nobody buys, and have some issues with foreigner DVDs from America and sometimes Australia?
I have years to see one of those in my local market (well, I saw one Pioneer on Praktiker, it is there years now... They give it for free, nobody gets it! - Really: They giving Pioneer standalones for free when you buy lot's of stuff as a bonus, and nobody bothers to take it home! They leave it there!!!)

[Cornucopia]

He said "compatible player". And it's WELL known that for SACD to work on ... oh, let's say 2003's top-of-the-line DVD players ... that you had to run the analogue outs for it to sound right. Yeah, that's right. 6 damn audio cables coming out of your unit, because none of the manufacturers could be bothered piping the digital signal straight out the coax or optical.

SACD is a flawed protocol. No point belaboring the issue.

Coax or Optical, the digital audio outputs on DVD players is based on the SPDIF protocol (~12 years old), which only supports Stereo LPCM audio up to 48k. AC3 and DTS get around this precisely BECAUSE they are compressed and so can disguise the AC3/DTS signal when it's wrapped inside a WAVE/LPCM header--that's one of the reasons they have that option on DD/DTS encoders.
Multichannel or Hi SampleRate/Bitdepth audio such as DVD-A or SACD is just TOO BIG to fit down the pipe.
The industry would have to create from scratch a new pipeline and put it on players and receivers. They balked for a while 'cuz of "copyright security issues"
They kinda have--HDMI should be able to incorporate "secure" multichannel/hidef audio in addition to "secure" HiDef video. I have yet to see any receivers/decoders that are incorporating it though.

It's not really a "fault" of the SACD or DVD-A protocols, its more a fault of the paranoid industry in general.

Scott

[RottenFoxBreath]

your right gurm,middle to latter half of 2003 it was purchased in.
buteven playing that disc on a normal dvd player and cd player it sounded shite.
an utter waste of money on my parents behalf i believe.
and never again they said.
it DID sound tinny,and no amount of jiggery pokery or adjusting the output sorted that.
couple that with the fact they had a 5.1 system,(as the dvd player that they had originally was on its way out),on top of what 6 extra outputs to pass off,(as the sony system didnt like to send the dvd output through those outputs,so he ended up having to use a digital out to the 5.1 system,a philips one,as well as those 6 outputs,and problems started)and they just got pissed off at it and gave up.and ive not seen many of the sacd/dvd-audio albums since.which is a good thing IMO.
the player on it had a sacd logo,and dvd video,as well as dvd-audio supported in the manual too,so in my mind it should have been compatible.

to add to the details on purchasing future discs,in the uk,you have to give name and address when purchasing a tv,for the license deptartments.
my wife and i paid cash in asda on wednesday for a new portable for our kids room,and i gave my local police stations address,as well as a false name.
power to the people 8)

[AlecWest]

Unfortunately what may kill hd is a poor economy. When you make minimum wage you can not afford new televisions.
And that is what really drives any market affordability.

Yup. It's also a thing of "new" vs. "improved." When video recorders first came out, they were a "new" thing in the marketplace. Prior to that, there was no simple way to record programming. My first VCR purchased was back in the early 80s and cost $700 ... which, at the time, was "cheap." Blank tapes also cost $20. And there was a bitter format war going on between VHS, Beta, and a "third" (short-lived) format called VX. But, because it was a "new" thing, videotape survived all those market pressures because the public wanted to have the ability to do something they couldn't do before.

There were far fewer market pressures on Quadraphonic Stereo in the 1970s. But, it was just an "improved" thing, not a "new" innovation. HD falls in the same category and is itself locked into a format war. Whether Joe & Suzy Sixpack consider the improvement "enough" to get them to upgrade, especially at a time of tight economics, is problematic.

It's also a matter of perceived alternatives. And, I'm certain this weighs heavily on the mind of Bill Gates. During his DOS transition to 16-bit Windows and then on to 32-bit Windows, there wasn't much in the way of a cheap alternative available. Macs were an alternative, true, but software and peripherals tended then (and now) to be more expensive with fewer choices. But now, there's a growing interest in Linux. And, as Gates attempts to move the bar upward to a 64-bit OS, he might find that interest problematic, too ... especially if more developers realize the advantages of programming for an OS that doesn't exact licensing fees for the privelege ... and if the consumer base sees this developer interest as a signal that it might be a good time to make the OS transition.