High-Def's Holy Grail: Superior Copy Protection

[Edmund Blackadder]

Utter gibberish. I've not read such crap in a while.

Unfortunately I've read it and it's very unsettling.

How does this work for gifts - do you have to provide a photo of the recipient ?

That point was also mentioned and there was no answer.

Now here's where my completely off the wall predictions come in: Perhaps what you'll have to do is to buy some sort of a gift card for a particular movie, paying the full price. Then your gift recipient will go and get your gift for free at the store and gets his/her picture taken. It's just my wild guess.

But the unique watermark in each disc and external server connection is pretty much a serious information and these measures are being considered by the industry. Just let's hope it does not materialize.

Another thing I've heard. If you somehow break the code, make copies and distribute them online or wherever, the unique number/watermark will haunt you in other ways as well. Since you would naturally play that unique disc (from which you've made illegal copies) in your HD-DVD player that is connected to a network (which might be required), the studios can track your disc number/unique HD-DVD player ID combination and for all the future releases permanently lock out your player from playing them. In other words you will need a new mod chip for each new HD-DVD release if you get caught copying their discs. So if you somehow manage to backup your HD-DVD, don't even think of bringing your backup to your friend's house - if your friend makes a copy of it and publishes it online - you will be the one with lots of trouble. I may have screwed up the terms a bit, but that was another bit of serious information.

P.S.: Don't forget one thing. As the cracking intelligence improves, so is the studios' ways to protect their content. They'll find a more automated and efficient way to block you from future releases if you break rules and also to sue you if they feel like doing it. It's not going to be an easy battle. Welcome to XXI century.

[junkmalle]

The industry proposed a fix for situations if you have to pay by cash: all the vendors that sell HD discs will be required to have a snapshot photo/video camera at the register.

Go back to your source of that information and re-read it. It was an april fools joke. Here's the thread from videohelp:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=263956

And the original story:

http://www.dvdfile.com/news/viewpoints/editors_desk/2005/04_01.html

From the end of the story: "And if the paranoia I've described in this article were true, I'd have to find a new hobby."

[Edmund Blackadder]

Go back to your source of that information and re-read it. It was an april fools joke

I don't know. It seemed too possible to be a joke. I'm sure at least some of the stuff decribed in that article will be true. I'm almost positive that they'll have some sort of activation/tracking procedures going on. Again, I hope I'm wrong. It's better to expect the worst and then get something better than the other way around.

On a side note, somebody mentioned here that DVD-Audio and SACD wasn't cracked because 3rd world coutries don't need them or cannot afford the equipment. Well, do you think that most of the people in those countries will be able to afford some quality High Definition equipment. I don't think so. They will continue using standard DVD's on their 4:3 TV's. Heck, even Europe is not ready for the most part for true HD signals. A lot of the TV's are widescreen, but not HD capable. So the market will be mostly limited to North America and Japan. If the explanation for DVD-Audio and SACD not being cracked is true, then expect HD-DVD not to be cracked anytime soon either.

By the way did you guys know that WinDVD 6 can play DVD-Audio discs without any extra hardware. That was a pleasant surprise.

[Gurm]

Ok, let me reiterate:

1. They will NOT require network-awareness to play new content.
It's just not feasible. Too many people aren't online. Phone line? Ha! It just doesn't wash. Nevermind that it'd never work in other parts of the world besides the USA. The success of satellite units which utilize this technology has been limited.

2. The rest of this wild conjecturing is based on supposition #1.

3. They won't/can't require ID to purchase films.
Sorry. You don't show ID to go to the movie theater (unless you look 15 and you're trying to go see an R-rated film), you don't show ID to buy CD's at the store. Nobody will buy ANY movies if ID is required.

They KNOW these things. They KNOW they would kill their market if they did any of them. DVD is fine for 99.99% of the country. Nobody has a TV that can take advantage of HD-DVD in a serious way, and CERTAINLY you're not gonna sell Joe Blue-Collar on having to register his DVD's with the DVD commission.

4. DID I MENTION PORN?????
Everyone knows that porn has driven technology. Porn drove VHS, porn drove early adoption of DVD. HD-DVD won't have porn, at least not right away, because there doesn't exist porn high-quality enough to not look terrible in high-definition. Nobody wants to see the zits on a performer's butt. Trust me here. So not only won't they back this technology, but if they DO, I guarantee you nobody will REGISTER THEIR CREDIT CARD to watch porn in the privacy of their own home.

GROW UP PEOPLE, AND STOP THIS WILD CONJECTURING. NONE OF THIS WILL HAPPEN.

[Gurm]

Go back to your source of that information and re-read it. It was an april fools joke

I don't know. It seemed too possible to be a joke. I'm sure at least some of the stuff decribed in that article will be true.

Nope.

I'm almost positive that they'll have some sort of activation/tracking procedures going on. Again, I hope I'm wrong. It's better to expect the worst and then get something better than the other way around.

No. Never. Nobody will do it. Will YOU do it? Do you know anyone that will? I can't think of a single person who would let their movie-watching habits be tracked.

On a side note, somebody mentioned here that DVD-Audio and SACD wasn't cracked because 3rd world coutries don't need them or cannot afford the equipment. Well, do you think that most of the people in those countries will be able to afford some quality High Definition equipment. I don't think so. They will continue using standard DVD's on their 4:3 TV's. Heck, even Europe is not ready for the most part for true HD signals. A lot of the TV's are widescreen, but not HD capable. So the market will be mostly limited to North America and Japan. If the explanation for DVD-Audio and SACD not being cracked is true, then expect HD-DVD not to be cracked anytime soon either.

I think it's less that 3rd world countries can't afford them and more that the equipment SUCKED. Put a SACD or DVD-A in a Sony player and listen to how lousy it sounds, IF it even plays at all - oh, and remember that you have to have the ANALOGUE outputs hooked up because it doesn't downmix to digital. Yeah, THAT's some good sh!t there! It wasn't cracked because it SUCKS and nobody wants it.

By the way did you guys know that WinDVD 6 can play DVD-Audio discs without any extra hardware. That was a pleasant surprise.

Yup, and WinDVD-HD will be able to play HD-DVD's... and we can run a debugger, get the keys, and crack them. LOL.

[Cornucopia]

For a more informed idea of the next Copy protection, dubbed AACS, take a look at a white paper from the source:

http://www.aacsla.com/media/aacs_technical_overview_040721.pdf

EdmundBlackadder wasn't that far off. I did think the ID & camera bit were a little much though (from original April 1st article).

Scott

[Edmund Blackadder]

4. DID I MENTION PORN?????
So not only won't they back this technology, but if they DO, I guarantee you nobody will REGISTER THEIR CREDIT CARD to watch porn in the privacy of their own home.

I think porn will do well with HD-DVD. First of all, I'm pretty sure that HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will have an option, just like a regular DVD, to not be copyprotected in any way. And if so then you can buy all the Hi-Def porn you want without any photos taken

Second, now with the availability of high quality 3CCD 1080i camcorders under $5k (Sony HVR-Z1 for example), it will be very easy to shoot porn on a low budget and make cheap unprotected HD-DVD's for the horny masses. All they need now is a finalized HD format. They can now also be more creative with titles and include clever combination of words such as pimples and zits. Maybe even include a 7.1 channel MLP surround soundtrack

[painkiller]

(amazing when paranoia runs rampant...)

Even though it is possible to run the gamut in technical possibilities with just oral logic, as most of us seem to do here, we need to keep in mind that the real world runs more on business logic. Not that most of us here don't already know that - but perhaps some don't.

Meaning, most of the free enterprise businesses try to operate as frugally (cheaply) as they can - and still make money despite what losses are incurred.

Most non-technical businesses/stores have to do the best they can - while still not able to totally eliminate losses of every kind. They trade-off to improve their gains over the losses. They can't afford hi tech solutions to even get close to 90% loss free. Even the grocery store I frequent now posts their hired help at the entrances and exits - to try and keep people honest. Like Costco and BJ's and Sams clubs.

For such businesses that are centered around hi-tech - they can very likely explore avenues that best attempt to reach that goal of 100% profit margins. Just how successful they can be is another matter.

An example of that is when the first satellite industry (large dishes!) was nearly destroyed by General Instrument when they came out with the VideoCypher encryption boxes in order to bring about subscription satellite services when the DBS satellites were launched. They fought down internal pirates (their own employees) to regain their goal (as I recall that videocypher box has since evolved through numerous versions/upgrades because of that ongoing piracy). As a result, we now have the Directv and Dish (some others?) that have become the new consumer satellite industry.

While anyone can argue the technical possibilities for the future here (immediate or otherwise), only time will tell if organizations such as RIAA and MPAA will win out. And the only way we can tell, or even fight back in any way, is to talk with our reps in Congress. At least they are supposed to listen us (aren't they? will they?).

But you can bet the RIAA and MPAA won't listen to us.
They don't have the incentive to change. They like the system as they have it now. And the laws on the books are their perfect vehicle - and they could care less about that "fair use" extrapolation since the Betamax case. They wish to lock down the ability for any of us to save our favorite videos for later viewing at our liesure.

It's the public that has to wake up and realize that. If they care at all about changing anything.

As for me, I despise the notion of having to pay, over and over again, for repeats.

It boggles my mind that other folks seem to just accept that.

[Gurm]

For a more informed idea of the next Copy protection, dubbed AACS, take a look at a white paper from the source:

http://www.aacsla.com/media/aacs_technical_overview_040721.pdf

EdmundBlackadder wasn't that far off. I did think the ID & camera bit were a little much though (from original April 1st article).

Scott

Nothing in that paper indicates anything other than advanced encryption.

And as I've said before - they're GOING to license it to SOMEONE, and that person's program can be hacked/debugged to get the key. Period.

[kirpen]

In the fantasy world where blu-ray disc purchases are more difficult then handgun purchase who pays the stores for all this extra effort? I don't think they make much money off a DVD or cd so adding this cost to the store would kill any profit.

BTW did you hear about the seven day waiting period to purchase a disc. They will do an extensive check to see if you have a burner,broadband, or a land line.

[Skith]

I believe I read in an article that Blu-ray discs (pre-recorded) and recordable will have different capacities. In addition, a physical portion of the pressed discs will contain necessary information for copyrighted material to play, but that same area will not be able to be written to on recordable discs. At least that is what I undersood with my limited abilty to understand the article/news release. (I think I read it at www.cdrinfo.com ).

In addition, the discs will use some kind of unique key, that can be used to lock the disc from being played in a certain player (for instance, one with hacked firmware).

Blu-ray has the advantage of an extra-hard coating (developed by TDK), making discs extremely resistant to damage.

[slight rant]
Of course, we here in America will probably get the short end of the stick with HD-DVD being backed by hollywood. I want the greater capacity of Blu-ray (not to mention other technological benafits of the format).
[/end slight rant]

[Move over HD-DVD & Blu-ray: Here comes Holographic Storage]
Check out this news article, Holographic storage available by the end of the year (not for consumers). Potential of 1.3TB storage PER DISC!



[Humor]
HVD vs Blu-ray vs HD-DVD:

[Noahtuck]

This whole thread is a joke!!!!
Except for junkmalle & Gurm,
This was originaly posted way back on April 1st and what more need's to be said READ!!!!!!! + BRAIN'S!!!!!
If half the crap written was true.... suicide... if you can't figure it out beyond that.....

[Zisguy1]

I believe I read in an article that Blu-ray discs (pre-recorded) and recordable will have different capacities. In addition, a physical portion of the pressed discs will contain necessary information for copyrighted material to play, but that same area will not be able to be written to on recordable discs.

That still wouldn't make it uncrackable. If PC DVD players could read the physical portion of the disc (and it was crackable), a movie could be decrypted in a way that it wouldn't even need the physical information anymore.

There's always a chance they could get a law passed forbidding the manufacture of PC DVD players that can read (the HD portion of) commercial movie discs... the reason being that PC's don't have big enough screens to need that much resolution. If that happens, then (widespread) cracking is probably out of the picture, at least in the short to medium term.

Another thing they might do is put the PC DVD player software on each HD disc, and force people to use only that DVD software (which is tuned specifically for the particular encryption used on that title only) if they want to view the HD content. Possible, but I think they'd have problems with OS upgrades/changes making the software unusable.

[Marty2003]

Most of everyone's spectulation on HD copy protection/prevention seems like complete BS to me. They can't make purchasing BD's/HDDVD's any more complicated than purchasing current DVD's. That means no Credit Cards, ID's, pictures etc.

The copy protection should be completely seamless to the ordinary user who wants to watch a movie, just like current DVD's. If I stick my DVD in any DVD player or PC it will play it just fine regardless of copy protection. They can't force joe shmoe to go through any complex verifications just to watch a movie.

And what's this talk of "Professional Crackers". Since when was cracking a paid profession? Most of you people seem to think breaking DRM/copy protection is relatively simple task, but wasn't CSS just cracked by luck?

My prediction is that the new copy protection will not be cracked per-se but someone will probably find some other way around it, such as finding a way to record it while it's playing onscreen or via analog methods.


But the thing I really have to ask myself is why go through all the trouble to make so-called "backups"? The only way I can see for backups to be advantageous would be for people who "backup" rented movies. But of course we can't talk about that here. I don't understand people who say they backup their entire movie collection. Why waste hundreds of hours and dollars for discs/cases? How roughly do you handle your disks that they would need to be constantly replaced. The only reason I can think of is kids who mishandle discs. Do the kids really need to be handling disks? Surely it would be cheaper to invest in a multi-disk player loaded with the kids favorites than to backup your entire collection. In the end isn't it cheaper to just pay another $25 on the rare occasion that a disc gets snapped in half, rather than wasting hours backing up your disks? I've never made a backup, and I've never seen the need. As long as my original disks play I'll be fine. If I ever need to replace a disk for $25 I'll also be fine.



I say the movie industry should offer a HD-DVD broken disk replacement service where you send in the remnants of your non-playable disc and they send you a free or low-cost replacement copy. This would eliminate the need to make backups. Of course they should only offer this service as long as their protection stays uncracked just to spite the crackers and people who feel the need to make backups

I honestly don't care about future copy protections as long as they don't get in the way of watching movies.

[Edmund Blackadder]

This whole thread is a joke!!!!
Except for junkmalle & Gurm,
This was originaly posted way back on April 1st and what more need's to be said READ!!!!!!! + BRAIN'S!!!!!
If half the crap written was true.... suicide... if you can't figure it out beyond that.....

Noahtuck, I've got enough "BRAIN'S" to believe at least some of the information out there, because those copyprotection methods are not that difficult to implement. Did you even read that AACS paper?

Back to DVD-Audio and SACD. How come pirates crack just about any obscure thing they can crack, but in 5 years still haven't cracked those formats just for the sport of it? My good guess is just that they cannot. HD-DVD will be even harder to crack and I will be the first in line laughing at you, Noahtuck, when you buy your first few HD-DVD's, and then, being unable to back them up, you'd have countless posts for months or even years in this forum about the lack of HD-DVD-Decrypter and how come nobody still cracked the format. Keep joking about this thread, that's fine, but just be prepared for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray not meeting your expectations in the backup arena. Be ready to pay the full price again if something happens to your original. AACS protection is not that funny. You're just having a denial, but one day you will realize that most of the things said in here are true (well, except maybe the photo ID/credit card rumors).

Yup, and WinDVD-HD will be able to play HD-DVD's... and we can run a debugger, get the keys, and crack them. LOL.

Gurm, now that WinDVD 6 can play DVD-Audio, perhaps you'd care to post a guide on how to back up DVD-Audio? You said with WinDVD-HD it will be easy to backup HD titles. It must be very easy to back up DVD-Audio according to your WinDVD/debug theory. Would you mind proving it? I'd like to back up my Queen "A Night At The Opera" and "The Game" DVD-Audio discs. Thanks.

[Edmund Blackadder]

But the thing I really have to ask myself is why go through all the trouble to make so-called "backups"?

I wouldn't be doing backups myself and I don't usually keep two copies of everything (except for my own productions). However, I have two places I call home in two different countries. I'm not that crazy to pay the full price for the originals for both of my places. And keep moving my large CD/DVD collection from place to place would be a complete madness. So I keep the originals in one place and keep backups in the other (USPS Express Mail has been reliable so far). And since I live in both places, even though at different times, I sure as hell have the right to backup for my own use, even if it's in another country. Otherwise, I wouldn't be doing hardly any backups (except for very rare CD's/DVD's).

[Heff]

I'm thinking this is a BS thread too.

[lumis]

some of the stuff mentioned in this thread is BS.. like taking your picture or requiring ID to purchase a movie on one of the next-gen formats.

but i believe most of the stuff mentioned in the blackadder & my thread (which were surprisingly similar) are the truth.

[Gurm]

Oh it's true that they'll use advanced encryption. Why wouldn't they? Hardware to unlock it is relatively cheap to manufacture. I see no real downside to doing that.

But... land lines? ID? Credit checks? C'mon, folks!

As for hacking DVD-A, IIRC the key system works differently on it. I am so out of shape with SoftIce that I wouldn't know where to start with WinDVD... but if it is unlocking the content, someone skilled can watch it do so and do it themselves. End of story.

As for the "special keys that will make the movie not play in hacked players" ... THINK about this. If the player is hacked... oh it's useless. You people are conspiracy minded and not very bright.

[Nilfennasion]

But the thing I really have to ask myself is why go through all the trouble to make so-called "backups"?

Because when manufacturers create players that scratch discs through normal, or even encouraged non-standard, use, it creates a desire and market to create a copy. The number of discs I have had that suddenly wouldn't work when I had done nothing wrong with them is enough that I will never put some discs in some players until I have copied them. The fact that even one record label I used to respect has created CDs that have been disallowed the use of the CD-DA logo and cause my computer to crash during vital operations does not help.

[AlecWest]

I don't know. It seemed too possible to be a joke.

It was an April Fools joke ... it just took him five days to fess up to it officially:

http://www.dvdfile.com/news/viewpoints/editors_desk/2005/04_06.html

[AwesomeDude]

All this talk about uncopyable media is ridiculous. Only a handful of you have any sense. The bottom line is: THERE IS ALWAYS A SOLUTION. Somebody will find it. Just look at Half-Life 2. It boasted that its online activation copy protection was uncopyable. I am aware of at least three people who have bottleg copies of this game and they all work perfectly. No online rubbish required!

Mark my words, the protection will become a non issue within 6 months of their release. It will always be this way......

P.S I do not condone piracy, I 'm just telling the facts.

[Tidy]

I really do not see how they are going to require a phone connection or network connection. there are a great number of people in this coutnry who do not have land line phones anymore in which case they are not going to be selling many players. There is a reason why land line phone companies are scrambling to get into wireless . As for having to verify over the net I think it is highly unlikely. It will turn out to be one of htose things like software activation that everybody was so afraid of. Unplug your Internet connection and retry a few times and voila. No more activation problems, all you have to do is enter a phone challenge code.


I really do not see how they can setup copy protection that restrictive and still expect anyone to buy it. Myself this stuff does not wrry me at all.

[powaking]

I just can't wait to put all my MiniDV tapes onto Blu-Ray without having to do some major compression. That would be my only benefit for Blu-Ray. I'm sure you'll start seeing a lot of Indi films popping up now with 3ccd cameras being affordable.

Screw Hollywood. hahahaha

[Edmund Blackadder]

It was an April Fools joke ... it just took him five days to fess up to it officially:

http://www.dvdfile.com/news/viewpoints/editors_desk/2005/04_06.html

At least Dan Ramer admits on a serious note that there's a very good chance that HD-DVD/BD players will not have analog component output. Or if they will it will be downsized to SD. Isn't that crappy enough? There goes the theory down the toilet of those who said "If I can see it I can copy it". Well, you might not even see it in HD or maybe not even in SD, unless you have a HDTV set with secure digital link. And add AACS on top of that and there you have it. For those of you who don't believe about player's license being revoked in future releases - read the AACS paper carefully.

Also, I don't want to sound annoying, but until somebody can prove that DVD-Audio can be cracked (which is not as advanced in copy-protection as HD-DVD/BD will be), I don't even want to hear that it will take next to nothing to crack HD formats. At least with DVD-Audio you have an analog loophole, but with HD you might not even have that. Of course you can buy a 3CCD HDV-cam and record your HD-DVD content off of your HDMI compatible screen. So to that extent yes, if you can see it you can copy it. Make sure to use a good tripod and manual focus/exposure.....

[AlecWest]

Also, I don't want to sound annoying, but until somebody can prove that DVD-Audio can be cracked (which is not as advanced in copy-protection as HD-DVD/BD will be), I don't even want to hear that it will take next to nothing to crack HD formats.

I don't think anyone said cracking it would be a "next to nothing" process. What most people said was that it will take more time and effort to do so and that it won't happen until it becomes a "popular" format (unlike DVD-Audio). And therein lies the rub for the industry. Until such time that HD "does" become the popular format, ordinary DVDs will be around. And even then, it would depend on how popular HD is. And, that might be a while considering the dissolution of VOOM which admittedly was "before its time."

At least with DVD-Audio you have an analog loophole, but with HD you might not even have that.

In preparation for an HD standard, almost every cable company is poised to provide to existing cable customers (who don't want to upgrade to HD) a "converter box" that will convert digital signals into analog. Are you suggesting that converter boxes couldn't be manufactured privately for the same purpose? True, you wouldn't get an HD result. But some people (like me) are pleased as punch with DVD-quality movies just as they are.

[AlecWest]

P.S. I've said this before. I'm not all that convinced that HD will "take off" the way the industry dreams it will. I've been to a local store selling HD home-theater systems. And, they've shown an example film -- part in DVD format, part in HD format. Is the HD display better? Sure. Is is so much better I'd be willing to shell out 5 to 10 times what the current technology is priced at to acquire it? Not to me.

The industry doesn't have to convince videophiles that HD is the "wave of the future." Videophiles are already convinced of that. They have to convince Joe & Suzy Sixpack, the middle-class buyer of entertainment equipment and media. And, they have to convince them at a time when the buying power of their dollar is taking a beating via outsourcing of jobs and higher energy costs. It won't be an easy sell.

[AlecWest]

[edit]My ISP is having "issues" at the moment. Accidental double post deleted.[/edit]

[Edmund Blackadder]

In preparation for an HD standard, almost every cable company is poised to provide to existing cable customers (who don't want to upgrade to HD) a "converter box" that will convert digital signals into analog. Are you suggesting that converter boxes couldn't be manufactured privately for the same purpose? True, you wouldn't get an HD result. But some people (like me) are pleased as punch with DVD-quality movies just as they are.

I agree. However, because those converter boxes will downconvert to standard definition, there will not be any point in owning HD-DVD titles or even a player. If a normal DVD can give you the same exact result, plus you don't have to buy a new player, plus you can play it anywhere, plus you can back it up anytime you want to - I see the same niche market doom for HD-DVD/BD as what it is now for DVD-Audio/SACD.

The history has a good chance of repeating itself. The industry will loose more from overprotecting itself. It will loose more from that than if the HD formats were a little more open, even if there were some pirated copies floating around. As bad as pirates are, they do add popularity to formats they're using. It's like illegal MP3 downloading. I admit I did some in the past, but guess what - those artists that I liked I ended up actually buying their albums (often paying high import prices). If I never heard those illegal MP3's I'd never know those bands even existed (thanks to a stupid radio monopoly in this country).

So the bottom line is, nobody likes formats that they cannot copy one way or another fairly easily, so with this overprotection the industry is shooting itself in the foot.

[Sabro]

Well if the encryption scheme is anywhere close to Wifi WEP 128, heck the FBI can crack it in about 3 secs given enuff 'info' so you know the kiddies can do it in 2 secs

All it would take is a distributed attack (and we know how many zombie machines are out there) to come up with a key, then it could very easily be added to a online database.

Wanna backup the newest version of 'whatever' hit their website, select the region, wide/full screen, etc and get the decryption key...plug it in to a ripper that supports user added keys and your in business.

This is not condoned, nor nessessarly a reality at this point, but merely an example of how easy it would be
after the leg work was done.

Sabro