High-Def's Holy Grail: Superior Copy Protection

[twilightzone]

Just curious what everyone thinks about this article. They talk about current CSS ecncryption using 56 bit and the new technology they say is based on 128 bit encryption and that a computer will take hours just to guess one possible key.

High-Def's Holy Grail: Superior Copy Protection
Author: ERIK GRUENWEDEL
egruenwedel@advanstar.com
Posted: April 8, 2005
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Much has been said about the improved picture quality and increased disc capacity of next-generation, high-definition discs. To consumer electronics manufacturers and studios backing HD-DVD or competitor Blu-ray Disc, however, copyright protection and digital rights management (DRM) is just as important.

In today’s anywhere, anytime digital entertainment environment, DRM also must allow users to transport digital content between devices, from a home network onto portable media players and back, without the threat of piracy.

To achieve this media nirvana, both sides appear to be jointly focused on Advanced Access Content System (AACS), cross-industry copy-protection software under development by IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, Warner Bros. and the Walt Disney Company.

With several of these companies supporting opposing high-def formats, the cooperation on copyright protection software is a credible example for the potential that the two sides may yet find a compromise, as hinted in recent comments by Sony’s president-elect Ryoji Chubachi, who expressed interest in the concept of finding a middle ground with rival HD-DVD.

Digital Maginot line
Using an increased encryption standard (the scrambling of data into a code that is unreadable to anyone who does not have the key that deciphers it) and assorted other firewalls, AACS is designed to prevent the illegal copying and transfer of content between unlicensed devices and networks.

The technology, experts say, is considered the most secure available on the market. The increased 128-bit encryption standard creates a code that is many times longer than the 56-bit encryption standard found on a DVD. The longer the code, the harder it is to break.

“If you look at the sheer number of keys available — 2 to the 128th bit power — that alone can keep a computer busy literally for years trying to hack it just for one key,” said Andy Parsons, SVP, industrial solutions business group, Pioneer Electronics. “It is much more powerful in the sense that there are so many possible combinations that it is impossible for the computer to guess them all.”

Interestingly, Macrovision, one of the pioneers in content protection, said it doesn’t plan to introduce copy-protection software for the next generation of high-def discs until the format struggle between Blu-ray and HD-DVD has been decided.

In an analysts call early last month, Macrovision CEO Bill Krepick said the firm was talking to customers about high def, but cautioned against developing anti-piracy software against an unknown culprit.

“Irrespective of which format is successful, whatever encryption system exists will most likely be cracked like CSS, and you will need some type of antiripper technology,” Krepick said. “It will take a while to develop.”

Portable media
The success of high-def discs will be indirectly proportional to the market penetration of HDTV and home networks, experts say. Content providers and CE companies recognize the importance interoperable media devices — including the laptop, digital video recorder, cell phone and PDA — will play in whether HD achieves market acceptance.

“What we learned from DVD is that a fairly strict go/no-go [copyright protection and DRM] policy had some obvious limitations for consumers,” Pioneer’s Parsons said. “The content providers have realized we are working in a different environment, with people who wish to make a copy of content they have for a portable media device.”

The Blu-ray Disc Association counts more than 115 member companies, many of whom also support HD-DVD.

A typical home network might have the content source running in one area of the home while allowing users to watch it on different devices throughout the home. Content providers understand they must allow this sort of functionality in addition to downloading content from the Internet, according to Parsons.

“These are all new distribution channels they have not had in the past,” he said. Indeed, if a user wants to go over to his friend’s house and burn 10 copies, that would not be a legitimate use of the content. But if the user wants to make a copy for his portable media device and the content provider had given permission for that use, he would be able to do that.

“The idea is to not only make it stronger [against piracy], but also to give people permission to use it in ways that greatly reduce the incentive to crack it in the first place,” Parsons said. “If you are going to have a home network, you have to have devices that know how to communicate with other devices and that separate permissions granted by individual software and hardware devices.”

http://www.videostoremag.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=7383

[steve2713]

I'm sure it will be cracked. If you've got a drive in your computer that can read the disc you'll be able to copy it. That's how I see it.

[AlecWest]

It might take more skill and more time ... but everything that can be done can be undone. It may not be by a kid in Norway this time, though. But, professional pirates have the resources and motivation to do it. The same is true for any analog protection scheme, too.

[guns1inger]

You also have to remember that the major breakthrough in cracking CSS came through reverse engineering some very sloppy code that had a partial decryption key contained within in plain code. Without this it would have taken substantially longer to get to where we are now.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'm sure it will be cracked. If you've got a drive in your computer that can read the disc you'll be able to copy it. That's how I see it.

I don't think it will be cracked. At least not in any near future. Just look at DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD, these formats were around for nearly 5 years and still nobody has any idea how to crack their protection. Look at Windows Media DRM protected files - nobody knows how to crack them. You can't even play some of them if you are not in the correct IP region (Terminator 2 Extreme HD version DVD comes to mind).

From what I've heard so far, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will not only be much better encrypted than any of the above, but also tied to your phone or network line. Only that way you'll be able to get the keys to play those discs, and I'm not even talking about backing them up. They will be putting a watermark into a unique frame on each disc, so if the copy of your particular disc (if you were able to do it somehow) comes up somewhere online, they will find you very fast and will sue your bottom right away. They also plan to require credit cards or ID's to purchase those HD discs. I guess forget selling them on eBay once you get tired of them, because if somebody copies them and distributes illegaly it will be the original purchaser's ass that will get into trouble.

So all of you who are eagerly waiting to purchase Blu-Ray/HD-DVD burners are most likely to be disappointed. The most you'd be able to do with them is to burn your HDV home movies to it (which is nice) or to re-backup you standard definition DVD's to reduce the storage space. Something like 6 DVD9's on one Blu-Ray DL, etc...

But backing up commercial HD-DVD/Blu-Ray - forget about it. That's what I think is going to happen. And if that's the case, perhaps these new formats will be just as doomed as DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD. DVD-Audio and SACD are theoretically better than Audio CD's, but they are two incompatible formats that are impossible to backup digitally. Do you see any similarities with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray vs. regular DVD's?

So those of you who hesitate buying Double-Layer burner, might as well buy it now. Blue ray burners will probably be quite useless, unless you do a lot of large hard drive backups.

I really hope that there's a major consumer backlash against such heavy copyprotection and region control on HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. If everything will be dependent on IP address there's really no point in owning those movies. Imagine moving to another country with your equipment and extensive HD-DVD/Blu-Ray collection - it will all be completely unplayable because of your IP address.

Oh, another thing I've read. There's a good possibility that your analog component input HDTV sets will not be compatible with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players. They might output 480p through analog component, but not the HD signal. That will require encrypted HDMI (or whatever it's called) interface. So there you go.

If everything I've read so far is true, I really hope that HD-DVD/Blu-Ray fails miserably. I do not support piracy, but when the studios go this far to protect their content, it's just too much. For this very reason I hate with passion the current computer software activation trend. I'd rather have dozens of old-fashioned dongles than do the stupid online activation. At least with dongle you feel like you own your copy of the software program, and if company happens to go out of business you still can use that program as long as you don't break the dongle and there's a computer port that supports it. But with activation once the company goes belly up - you're screwed if you ever need to reinstall your program: the program that you paid for. Just think of 321 studios...

Long live standard definition DVD!!!

[lumis]

as long as the players for these next generation optical media devices dont have to "call home", i think the protection will be cracked on way or another. it might not be as easy as it is for dvd's.

we may be buying modchips for our blu-ray or hd-dvd players, using its drive to dump the information contained on the disc over a network to our computers and then burning it to a recordable disc.. kind of like an xbox..

then again, is there some kind of key that is hidden away that is very highly guarded because if it got out in to the public the entire security system would come to its knees? if so, thats another possible way around it.

never before have the music & movie studios had to deal with consumers making perfect (or near perfect) copies/backups of their purchased material.

laserdisk,vhs, dvd -> vhs or analog dvd-r
lp, tape, cd -> tape or analog cd-r

i think they were okay with that to a certain extent, but when i can copy a cd in 5 minutes, or copy a dvd in 25 minutes with perfect (or near pefect) quality, then they get worried.



one thing that does concern me is that dvd-audio hasnt been cracked (in its current form).. but maybe it hasnt been cracked because there isnt enough interest in it yet... too bad the guys from norway didnt hold out 6 more months so dvd-audio could have rolled out on the scene and claimed itself as "the new standard".. then we would have already had dvd-audio cracked, along with dvd-video.. ahwell..

you can rest assured there will be a virtual army attempting to hack the hell of this seeming unbreakable copy protection..

[lumis]

@edmund,

your novel beat mine :P

*****

think about this though, even though its a lot more painful that our current way.. what about doing an "analog" copy of an HD-DVD or BLU-RAY disc to its respective recordable disc.. the quality from the original would be so high, and the recording quality for the recorded disc would be so high i dont think we would notice much of a quality loss.. if that would even be possible.. but it would definetly be a pain in the ass compared to our current situation with dvd's..

[gll99]

Before css was cracked the early conversion programs just used a software player and converted the video as it played. You didn't have all the original menus and stuff but the movie itself was easy to copy. I think the early dvd2mpg and flask used this method. It seems like so long ago I've forgotten.

I don't believe that just backing up your movie to hd and then reauthoring new menus back to DVD will ever be a problem. There will always be someone who can design simple tools to do that. That will satisfy most of my needs until something better comes along. My main concern is to get the movie on a playable backup disc so that I can protect the original. Being able to create an exact duplicate is a bonus but it's not critical.

[waheed]

If it can be viewed, it can be copied.

[waheed]

Edmund Blackadder, I do agree with some of the points you have made. It isn't going to be easy copying HD-DVD/BLU RAY discs.

If true that DVD Audio/SACD hasn't been cracked yet. But realistically, how many people own DVD Audio/SACD capabale players. Or should I say how many people have even heard of DVD Audio/SACD. These two formats are not popular and doomed from the beginning. The titles avaivable on these two formats are pretty low. I dont think professionals would make an effort to crack something thats not popular as well as being hard to crack. Just my opinion.

If the upcoming HD formats require a phone line to connect to, then we're basically screwed. But, then again, I think any format requiring a net connection or a phone line, etc.. will be doomed to fail. How many people do you think will hook up their players to a phone line. I, for one wouldn't and as a result, not buy HD. I would stick with the current DVD.

There is no way in the world I would let movie studios take away my privacy. Why should they know what I watch and when I watch it.

[Edmund Blackadder]

@edmund,
your novel beat mine :P

Mine was also a little longer.

what about doing an "analog" copy of an HD-DVD or BLU-RAY disc to its respective recordable disc.. the quality from the original would be so high, and the recording quality for the recorded disc would be so high i dont think we would notice much of a quality loss..

Yes, that would be possible if there was the high quality analog way. But as I wrote earlier (in my novel ), there's a very big chance that the analog component output will be permanently limited to 480p which is a standard definition. The only Hi-Def output would be possible through encrypted HDMI or some newer digital interface. So, I'm afraid, even the analog way will not be possible. And as a secondary issue, most people's currect HDTV's will be incomatible and will only be able to display 480p. I'm sure BestBuy and CircuitCity will pee into their pants from joy that they'll soon be making even more money from making people buy the all new kinds of HDTV's - the ones that are compatible with HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

[SatStorm]

One reason piracy exist is because the prices of the original things are high for most people in this world. Americans & West Europeans don't get this, because they tend to forget how the rest world live.

The reason DVD Audio and Super Audio CD is not cracked yet, is because it is not popular on the poor countries. So the same for the Windows Media DRM files: You need broadband connections for getting those... We (the advance world) get it for granted, but it is not!

IMHO, stuff are "hacked" only when they gain an interest beyond the "advance" world. It is the only way for those people to get the same stuff we do, at afforable - for them - prices.

Also, whatever shows on a screen, one way or other can be grabbed. This is the so called "analogue hole" of the technology and the big ones can do nothing to fight it! Even HDTV is possible to be captured with today's technology. And about the quality loss? Like the quality loss we have from a CD to a MP3 at 224kb/s ... So tiny, you don't bother!

[Zisguy1]

I think it will be cracked, and within only a few years. 128-bit encryption is considered strong right now (at least as far as brute-force attacks). But suppose a hacker group distributed a virus that does only one thing -- use idle CPU time to work on cracking the algorithm. And the virus spread into the wild (pathetically simple with MS's lack of security) and was eventually running on thousands or tens of thousands of machines? How much CPU power is that?

Just one possible scenario, there are others. The wild card here is the possibility of some sort of upgradeability or major variation each time a new title is released (making a crack valid for one title only). Who knows, it'll be real interesting to watch...

[spiderman2k1]

I see this is the way of Playstation maybe. You might have to install a modchip to play back ups. If you have to call out to watch a movie.But I do not think this is going to happen people will not like the idea and will not upgrade that fast. But I could be wrong.

It will be crack but maybe in four to 6 years, maybe even more time. But if you can capture thats better then nothing.

[bugster]

From what I've heard so far, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will not only be much better encrypted than any of the above, but also tied to your phone or network line.

Not if they want widespread sales of player and content.

They will be putting a watermark into a unique frame on each disc, so if the copy of your particular disc (if you were able to do it somehow) comes up somewhere online, they will find you very fast and will sue your bottom right away. They also plan to require credit cards or ID's to purchase those HD discs.

Commercial suicide if you ask me. Why should I provide ID in order to purchase a product. They want my money in return for their stuff, they have no right to anything more.

But backing up commercial HD-DVD/Blu-Ray - forget about it. That's what I think is going to happen.

It may take some time, but if HD DVD takes off in a big way, it will be cracked. DVD-Audio and SACD have not been cracked because they don't have the market size for it to be worthwhile.

I really hope that there's a major consumer backlash against such heavy copyprotection and region control on HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. If everything will be dependent on IP address there's really no point in owning those movies. Imagine moving to another country with your equipment and extensive HD-DVD/Blu-Ray collection - it will all be completely unplayable because of your IP address.

If I am required to provide ID, and connect a player to phone line/internet in oreder to watch a movie, I will be one of many that will NOT be buying into this format. If the Studios and distributors expect HD DVD (of whatever flavour) to be a success, they will have to forget that kind of crap. Look at what happened to DIVX from Circuit City (not the codec).

Oh, another thing I've read. There's a good possibility that your analog component input HDTV sets will not be compatible with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players. They might output 480p through analog component, but not the HD signal. That will require encrypted HDMI (or whatever it's called) interface. So there you go.

Yet another method of annoying your customers and alineating the early adopters (thos that have already purchased HD TV's), the very people that often determine if new technology lives or dies.

If everything I've read so far is true, I really hope that HD-DVD/Blu-Ray fails miserably. I do not support piracy, but when the studios go this far to protect their content, it's just too much. For this very reason I hate with passion the current computer software activation trend. I'd rather have dozens of old-fashioned dongles than do the stupid online activation. At least with dongle you feel like you own your copy of the software program, and if company happens to go out of business you still can use that program as long as you don't break the dongle and there's a computer port that supports it. But with activation once the company goes belly up - you're screwed if you ever need to reinstall your program: the program that you paid for. Just think of 321 studios...

Long live standard definition DVD!!!

Although many of the items discussed here have been reported online I doubt may of the more 'invasive' ones will be seen. The idea of being forced to provide ID to watch/rent a movie is ludicrous IMHO and will dissuade people from spending large amounts of money on the early players. Also the idea that player would be made deliberatley to be incompatible with the vast majority of HD TV's sold to date would also put many off buying. Without early adopters, new technology like this is either very slow to take off or fails altogether.

What I think is happenening is that the Movie industry is putting out scare stories about how tough the copy protection will be on Hi Def DVD, then when it finally hits the streets and the scarier bits (Required ID etc) don't materialize, the public will heave a collective sigh of relief and rush out to buy the new players and movies. How succesful this will be remains to be seen.

[dvdguy4]

Well I wont be buying any HI-DEF anything. Ill stick with the dvds and players that I already have. If its not broken, dont fix it . And I really dont want to have to buy all new movies. I dont see the need.

[Gurm]

I'm sure it will be cracked. If you've got a drive in your computer that can read the disc you'll be able to copy it. That's how I see it.

I don't think it will be cracked. At least not in any near future. Just look at DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD, these formats were around for nearly 5 years and still nobody has any idea how to crack their protection. Look at Windows Media DRM protected files - nobody knows how to crack them. You can't even play some of them if you are not in the correct IP region (Terminator 2 Extreme HD version DVD comes to mind).

WMV has been cracked, at least in concept, by Japanese hackers.

From what I've heard so far, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will not only be much better encrypted than any of the above, but also tied to your phone or network line. Only that way you'll be able to get the keys to play those discs, and I'm not even talking about backing them up. They will be putting a watermark into a unique frame on each disc, so if the copy of your particular disc (if you were able to do it somehow) comes up somewhere online, they will find you very fast and will sue your bottom right away. They also plan to require credit cards or ID's to purchase those HD discs. I guess forget selling them on eBay once you get tired of them, because if somebody copies them and distributes illegaly it will be the original purchaser's ass that will get into trouble.

This won't actually happen. It would impact profits too much. Look at "DIVX", it went away quickly because people didn't like having to hook up to a phone line and give out credit card information in order to watch their movies. And don't forget porn. Porn drives new technology, like it or not. Nobody and I mean NOBODY is going to want someone somewhere having their credit card information so that they can watch "Back Door Sluts 9". It just won't happen. Trust me here, that rumor about network keys is just that - a rumor.

-----------------

And remember, people. Pirates are good. Hackers are GOOD. Want to get a key? Just hack PowerDVD. There WILL be a PowerDVD-HD. Just open it up in a debugger, and watch what it does to unlock the disc. That'll get you your encryption algorithm and a key. BINGO.

[Gurm]

one thing that does concern me is that dvd-audio hasnt been cracked (in its current form).. but maybe it hasnt been cracked because there isnt enough interest in it yet...

Give this man a dollar!

That's EXACTLY the reason. Nobody I know owns even ONE DVD-Audio disc. I went to the store and the guy there told me that almost nobody buys them because (as we all know) most of the last-gen players couldn't play them very well at all.

WMV-HD? Again, who the hell buys those discs? Clearly SOME people do, but not enough for pirates to care.

[guns1inger]

The phone home thing was in fact from an article satirising the extent the movie studios and record companies are going to to protect their assets, and the amount of support they are recieving from the senate in things line the DRM Act. It wa spointing out that this might not be so far fetched at all. To date I have not seen anything from the vendors proposing such a measure. Not to say they won't now that it has been suggested, but it would be so unpopular that it would be doomed from day one.

I have also read, just this week, an interview with the local rep for one of the BluRay group. Australia is a notorious early adopter of technology. We bought into DVD and mobile phones faster than any nation on earth. Yet he does not see HiDef players of either group taking off within the next 3 years. He also said it would be 18 months before hardware was released locally, and to expect little change out of $5000.

Given that I have yet to see a HD TV that is a) capable of playing true HD without compromise, and b)with a picture quality to match my tube, I don't see any rush to upgrade.

[RottenFoxBreath]

my parents own a dvd-audio/sacd compatible sony player,and owned 1 sacd,pink floyds dark side of the moon.
its quality is sub par,tinny sounding,and generally buggy in playback,pausing,stopping,and the supposed "new master" that sony did for it is shite.
and thats a sony disc in a sony player.
listening to it compared to the version they bought about 8-10 years ago,is like listening to a 192kbps mp3,and comparing it to a 96kbps,or less mp3.
the sound is totally different,add alongside that,the fact they changed the tracks slightly with different times,and starting points,its a sham,at £16 it was,and the cd version was £3.99.
unbelievable.im glad it failed,alongside the absolute ripoff thats dvd-audio.

[AlecWest]

I don't think it will be cracked. At least not in any near future.

It will take more time.

From what I've heard so far, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will not only be much better encrypted than any of the above, but also tied to your phone or network line.

That'll be interesting to see, especially with the proliferation of portable video players and video players in automobiles. And what about people who want video players in their motorhomes or in vacation cabins that don't have telephones. Will they have to have some kind of mandatory sat-link to "phone home?"

They also plan to require credit cards or ID's to purchase those HD discs.

Hmmm ... do they also plan to force consumers to fill out forms, giving the names and addresses of friends/relatives to receive these videos for their birthdays (or as Christmas gifts)? And of course, that means VISA, MasterCard, American Express and Discover Card will have to immediately cease cash sales of "prepaid gift cards" that customers could have created under "assumed names."

These "plans" don't sound workable in the real world ... unless the movie industry expects us to change around our whole way of living to satisfy their need for secure movies.

[Cornucopia]

If studios do attempt such draconian measures, I can't wait to see the backlash...

Hey Emperor, YOUR CLOTHES ARE MISSING!!!

Scott

[shelbyGT]

I think the idea floating around of "tying HD/Blu-Ray players in with the phone line to obtain key" is an EXTREMELY bad idea. Every day in the news we hear more and more about people using only cell phones and not having a land line. I am NOT going to purchase a land line just so I can watch the occasional HD movie.

That's a bad move on their part, if it's true at all.

[AlecWest]

If studios do attempt such draconian measures, I can't wait to see the backlash...

Actually, it isn't the "phoning home" part or the credit-card/ID part that scares me. The scary part is the requirement that HD movie viewers will be required to sit in special chairs, with their hands shackled in through the duration of the film. And if one person in a room has to get up and go to the bathroom, the movie will autopause ... and the person will have to go to a blackboard first and write "I will not pirate movies" 100 times before the HD player will unlock the bathroom door.


The backlash will take the form of "non-conumerism." It will also take the form of angry protests from manufacturers of video players to be used in cars, motor homes, remote sites (cabins) or other areas where phone and/or network connections don't exist.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Hmmm ... do they also plan to force consumers to fill out forms, giving the names and addresses of friends/relatives to receive these videos for their birthdays (or as Christmas gifts)? And of course, that means VISA, MasterCard, American Express and Discover Card will have to immediately cease cash sales of "prepaid gift cards" that customers could have created under "assumed names."

The industry proposed a fix for situations if you have to pay by cash: all the vendors that sell HD discs will be required to have a snapshot photo/video camera at the register. So they'll automatically take your picture as you pay. I guess they won't know your name right away if you do some pirating. But I'm sure it won't take them long to find you with some help from local law enforcement. Just don't forget, all this ID/Credit Card/Photo Snapshot stuff will be tied to your unique disc number that has a watermark in a unique place somewhere in the film. They just basically want to track you down if they find a film on Internet with your watermark in it.

That'll be interesting to see, especially with the proliferation of portable video players and video players in automobiles. And what about people who want video players in their motorhomes or in vacation cabins that don't have telephones. Will they have to have some kind of mandatory sat-link to "phone home?"

I think they have a solution for that too, at least with HD-DVD format. The latest Toshiba proposal was a new kind of dual-layer disc, one layer (15GB I think) is for HD-DVD content and another (4.7GB) for DVD version. So if you want to watch it in your auto or on your boat you can use a standard definition version. Well, at least that's my guess.

[VCDHunter]

The industry proposed a fix for situations if you have to pay by cash: all the vendors that sell HD discs will be required to have a snapshot photo/video camera at the register. So they'll automatically take your picture as you pay. I guess they won't know your name right away if you do some pirating. But I'm sure it won't take them long to find you with some help from local law enforcement. Just don't forget, all this ID/Credit Card/Photo Snapshot stuff will be tied to your unique disc number that has a watermark in a unique place somewhere in the film. They just basically want to track you down if they find a film on Internet with your watermark in it.

Utter gibberish. I've not read such crap in a while. How does this work for gifts - do you have to provide a photo of the recipient ?

[rabg]

Hi All

Why do we get the same old b******s when copy protection
gets mentioned it will be cracked at some point somehow by
someone being clever or paying/threatning someone for inside
info maybe.

To quote someone why should the movie studio steal my
privacy well why should they be happy to let you pirate/backup
their movie you buy it with conditions you have to except that.

The other point about id might be required why should i have to do
that ,nothing to hide nothing to worry about its as simple as that.

You have to give id when doing other things so its not a problem
unless your are one of these big brother is watching me A******S

I bet if someone did similar things to you which may affect your
income you would be the first to moan.

SH*T happens just learn to live with it.

If you really want that movie on blue ray/ hd etc wait 6 months
after release it will be in the walmart/asda/tesco/blockbuster
bargin bin its that easy.


RabG

[Heff]

Even if they take your picture, it doesn't discount you saying you sold it or gave it as a present. You could have trading clubs just to break the trial to ownership of that particular DVD. Oh and then there's Netflix and such with 100s or 1000s of people having access to the same movie. What you think local police or FBI are going to go around trying to find copiers, esp. the homegrown make some for my family and friends type. I still say even if they try that with 100,000s of copies they'll be ways of getting them without your identity tied to you.

Also why would they require a new TV the digital rights would be handled by the DVD Player. Also if they did someone could just make a converter box. Also if you analogue copied the HD-DVD movie and recopied it back to a HD-DVD blank then just slap it in this thing called a HTPC! it will play it! Also someone will come along and make a DVD player that will play HD-DVDrs, there's no law against that. Remember eventually they're will be HD camcorders. I think they have some now for $5k.

[greymalkin]

"Nobody I know owns even ONE DVD-Audio disc"...

I have some! I got the pioneer dvd player that also plays dvd-audio/SACD and I own a few of each. It sounds very nice with acoustic/light songs but it's hard to pull off the heavy rock songs in surround because distorted guitar is pretty narrow/compressed to begin with. I'm not sure why someone would say it's a rip off, however. The discs cost no more than a regular cd and you get a higher quality surround mix. unless my ears are filthy filthy liars :P

[bugster]

The other point about id might be required why should i have to do
that ,nothing to hide nothing to worry about its as simple as that.

What a loda of crap.
I have nothing to hide, but I don't want my name, address and other personal details given out to some mega-corporation just to satisfy it's lust for money. I might need ID where age restrictions or other legal stuff requires it, but no way will I provide ID, and have it all recorded, just on the say so of a few millionaire executives just so they can get richer. Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty"