color/brightness help in vegas 5.0 ?

[sdsumike619]

well I do use the Mainconcept encoder in Vegas to do my encoding so that means that check box shouldn't be checked, but does that also mean that the black level will change too? You ever feel like you are on the virge of understanding something yet the lightbulb just refuses to stay lit? haha

[sdsumike619]

I just unchecked the box, and it did bump up the black level so I had to bring it back down to zero again (I think)

[edDV]

You want all the info that you want to encode over the 0 IRE line. That is why I suggested 1-2 IRE for that image as a minimum since it lacks a true black.

You want that detail in the guys shirt and the guitar.

I can't help with the IEEE-1394 problem. My firewire DVD recorder seems to behave but I'm using motherboard IEEE-1394 ports.

[edDV]

I said the Mainconcept encoder when I meant to say the Mainconcept DV codec. Vegas defaults to the Sony DV codec so you should have the switch in the ON position. Sorry for the confusion.

[sdsumike619]

lol... so if I am using the mainconcept ENCODER, the rgb switch should be off for proper levels, yes?
BTW, I don't know if you're a guitar player or not, but "the guy" is my dad =) http://www.robertconti.com if you're wondering.. There's 12 current DVDs, divided into 3 series, so 4 volumes, and the stuff I'm asking about now is for this 5th volume... Volume 1 was originally VHS but we had the source footage and I didn't do any adjustment or anything and they look nice, Volume 2 was shot with a Canon GL-1 and the picture is superb on those, Vol 3 and 4 I did from beginning to end and they had the "problem" of bad black level and what not, so for this 5th volume I'll get it right...
Basically these DVDs are about playin jazz lines, he takes a solo over a well known tune, and then goes through it measure by measure, here's a solo from one of the ones i'm workin on (the panasonic dvc80 gets AWESOME AUDIO quality!!!!)

http://www.geocities.com/sdsumike619/tslv5solo.mp3

Mike

[edDV]

The switch should be ON (checked) for proper levels. It's not about the encoder, it's about the DV codec and you are probably using Sony's DV codec (default).

You don't want to squash the blacks too far or his shirt will disappear.

[trock]

Here's a Flash video about black levels that may help:

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/JVC_DEMO.swf

[BJ_M]

Here's a Flash video about black levels that may help:

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/JVC_DEMO.swf

why do i seem to remember there was a mistake in that flash?

[edDV]

That is a great presentation. Would have saved alot of time if we had that yesterday .

I'm going to watch it carefully for errors but the overall points are correct.

BTW, Vegas doesn't have a 7.5 IRE switch to compensate for 7.5 recordings.* You have to either get the black down to 0 IRE (level 16) before capture (e.g. with a Canopus ADVC-100) or process the entire video to lower black before the DVD MPeg2 encode.

* This will typically be the case if you record from an analog pass through on your DV camcorder or if you directly capture analog NTSC through a transcoder that doesn't correct black to level 16.

[sdsumike619]

LoL; you might as well write in chinese in those last few posts...anyways, going to shoot the bulk of the next DVD tonite, I'll try to get a better white balance, but if not at least I know the fix now, thank you =)

[edDV]

sdsumike619, you should watch that JVC flash anyway to get an idea of black settings.

Good luck on the project.

[sdsumike619]

watching it now =)

[andie41]

Vegas doesn't exactly have a 7.5 setup switch, but it does provide some excellent controls. My captured video has black at 7.5 and I generally use the "color corrector" and the preset "Studio RGB to Computer RGB." This will bring the black level to 0 IRE and also expand the white level. If the white doesn't need expanding, it is simple to drag the gain control to bring the whilte level down. Then I can encode directly to Mpeg in Vegas or frameserve out to another encoder- all in one step.

Also, I check the 7.5 IRE Setup box in Video Scope Settings, because then I can see where the black level will fall when played in my DVD player- not really necessary, I know the black level will increase by 7.5, but it did help when I was learning to use Vegas.

[edDV]

Yes, Vegas can set the levels right after capture but all the video needs to be recalculated to get there which is compute intensive and degrades quality somewhat.

The preferred technique is to capture to level 16 black (zero IRE) and 235 white (100 IRE) at the A/D converter. Some consumer capture cards will do this. Most broadcast level cards will give a choice of DV or 7.5 IRE internal standards.

I use the Canopus ADVC-100 (with SW 2 on) to capture VHS and cable (S-Video) to correct DV/DVD levels. This feeds the Mainconcept MPeg2 encoder in realtime mode resulting in a DVD ready MPeg2 file in realtime. This saves conversion computation time and maintains quality. If editing or enhancement is needed, I use Vegas. Otherwise I open the file in Architect 2 and author the DVD.

My new HDTV cablebox puts out superb NTSC over the S-Video output. The Canopus does a very good job with the NTSC decode/DV conversion. I'm quite happy with the resulting 720x480 DVDs.

When I can capture the full HD TS stream (for local channels) there is a fair amount of number crunching that needs to be done to downsize to 720x480. The quality is better but the time investment is high as well.

[andie41]

Adjusting the levels after capture does, of course, require some processing time, but it does work well for those without hardware to perform this function.

If the video has been recorded with black at 7.5, I have difficulty understanding how the quality of a device such as the Canopus ADVC-100, would give higher quality than software when adjusting the black level.

[edDV]

Adjusting the levels after capture does, of course, require some processing time, but it does work well for those without hardware to perform this function.

If the video has been recorded with black at 7.5, I have difficulty understanding how the quality of a device such as the Canopus ADVC-100, would give higher quality than software when adjusting the black level.

I'd answer this way. 8 bit video (256 levels of luminance) is limited in quantization to start. The DV/DVD standard limits this further to 219 levels (16-235) due to guard bands under black and above white. If you capture with 7.5 IRE setup, black gets placed on level 32 reducing total possible levels to 203 even if white is correct. This doesn't give a levels processing algorithm much to work with. Quantization errors (e.g. stepping on diagonals) could result.

If analog is properly scaled in hardware before A/D, then black gets placed at 16 and white at 235 without need for further processing.

A second issue is the quality of the color separation and NTSC decoding. The Canopus hardware DV codec is considered to have a good quality NTSC decoder.

[sdsumike619]

haha now you guys totally lost me; what is a capture card? do I need one? is it the same thing as my firewire card? Tonight I discovered that the DVC80 has two preset white balance levels called 3200k and 5600k; I put it on 3200K and the picture on the TV monitor looked fantastic; tomorrow I will drop it to the computer and see how the levels pan out this time...

[sdsumike619]

Well, last night as I told you, I used the "3200K" white balance preset, and this is the result I got, MUCH better. Looks fine on both the TV and the computer monitor without any filters. The black level is a lot lower than when I did the manual white balance, it's probably just about right since you guys told me that I don't have any true black in the image; the lowest point is about 2-3%... So I think I'll stick with that white balance preset for shooting these videos....how does the image look?

Mike

[sdsumike619]

wow, after reading some of the posts on this thread again, I applied the "studio RGB to computer RGB" and what a difference!! It sure did make pure black! See below:

same image as previous post with the above mentioned filter:


looks good to me!

[edDV]

congrats !

Ideally, I'd take the the blacks down a bit based on your last waveform monitor shot, but the truth is on the video monitor and how it looks. Your scene has lots of detail in the near blacks. You don't want to loose the shirt contour.

[BJ_M]

sdsumike619 - change your signature, no advertising please - see rules

[sdsumike619]

can't even advertise in the signature?? that's a shame, the programs in my signature are awesome!

back to the black levels, I don't really care about the shirt contour, the focus is supposed to be on that left hand on the guitar, that's why he wanted to wear black and have black in the background...

[edDV]

can't even advertise in the signature?? that's a shame, the programs in my signature are awesome!

back to the black levels, I don't really care about the shirt contour, the focus is supposed to be on that left hand on the guitar, that's why he wanted to wear black and have black in the background...

That is a creative decision.