color/brightness help in vegas 5.0 ?

[sdsumike619]

Hi, here is a screen capture from Vegas from an instructional video I shot last night. Used two cameras. The main frame was shot with a Panasonic AG-DVC80 and the picture-in-picture was shot with a Canon ZR-20

Now figure this out, the cheapy consumer Canon captured better, brighter color than my 3CCD Panasonic...Could it be that the Canon is better in that respect? Either way, I would like to use the effects tools in Vegas to make the main frame match the PIP frame..

Can anyone tell me how to do that? Also, if you can give me some type of pointer to get better color on the Panasonic camera? I use auto-focus for both, and I set the white balance correctly (I think) on the panasonic...

Thanks for your help!
Mike[/img]

[edDV]

Long answer - get your capture levels correct as explained in the other thread.

Filters Strategy

First match black and white levels. That is the main issue with your picture. Experiment with.
-Black Restore, Levels

Use the waveform monitor to match blacks and whites. If necessary match gamma.

Then match colors. Vegas includes turorials for the primary-secondary color corrector,but it is easier to start with:
-color balance or
-HSL adjust (hue and saturation only if luminance is matched already)

Save settings

Next experiment with the Primary-Secondary color corrector

[BJ_M]

your white balance was off when you shot it...

2 second fix in vegas

[BJ_M]

btw - i didn't do any color matching of the two .. just adjusted color balance of the large pic to proper level , adjusted black level and saturation and added a hint of sharpness ...


really it took a few seconds -- then I do this all the time ... a proper color match job will take a little longer but this gets you real close ..

[edDV]

Some links to start:

http://www.blue7media.com/vegas/
http://www.creativecow.net/articles/vegasvideo.html
http://www.martyhedler.com/homepage/Vegas_Tutorials.html?Welcome_Visitor=1054421711
http://www.wideopenwest.com/~wvg/tutorial-11.htm
http://www.wideopenwest.com/~wvg/tutorial-12.htm

[edDV]

A very quick and dirty match (right half) off your JPG.

Levels filter
-7.5 % Black (incorrect setup on capture?)
+9% White

HSL filter
+10% saturation
both clips need minor hue adjustment (too pink)

Note computer monitor adjustments are not that same as the settings you will eyeball of the video monitor.

[sdsumike619]

Thanks for all those replies, so the fact that hardly any color adjustment was necessary means that i just had a bad white balance? and if so, BJ_M, how do I get a correct white balance?

I thought all I had to do was push the white balance button while focused on something white? it LOOKS right when I'm shooting the video..funny thing is, on the little canon, I don't even do a white balance, and it comes out nice - why is that?

[BJ_M]

primarily -

does that camera have an indoor and outdoor type setting ?

or type of lighting (indoors)

also - how did your IRE get knocked out ?


I think you will agree - that the image I posted above is a big improvement .

[sdsumike619]

I don't think the panasonic has any kind of indoor/outdoor setting, maybe i'm wrong..however, the canon does have a white balance option of either indoor or outdoor in the manual settings, but I just put it on full auto mode and that PIP is wht I got with it, which I'm happy with...

what do you mean by "how did your IRE get knocked out?" ?

On the panasonic, the recording option for IRE is set to 0%, does that help? and yes, the image you posted (as usual) looks a lot better than what I recorded haha..

The thing i want to be careful of on the DVD is something that happened a previous time, I burned a DVD that looked good on the computer screen, took it in the living room, turned it on, and the brightness was just ridiculous, I had to turn the brightness control on the TV almost all the way down for the blacks to loook black.. To me, it's just still a guessing game, so in our product manual, I made up this thing saying "this DVD has been created according to the current standards, if the picture looks washed out, it is because your TV is set too bright......."

No complains from anyone, just me haha

[sdsumike619]

BJ_m "just adjusted color balance of the large pic to proper level , adjusted black level and saturation and added a hint of sharpness"

I found the color balance filter control, 2 seconds has turned into 10 minutes trying to get what you got, can you tell me what values you used for all the settings and filters to achieve that nice picture you posted? Is "black level" the same as black restore? what filter did you use to change the saturation?

Also, the screen cap you posted; that looks GREAT on my computer monitor i'm looking at, did you see what it looked like on a properly calibrated TV monitor? is it way bright like I usually see?

[dcsos]

If its a minor difference like yours just fix it in POST
by engaging the following TRACK EFFX FILTERS
1. Hue and Saturation
2 Levels (controls gamma)
3 Hue & Brightness

With these engaged you can easily paint one to look like the other,
If the talent has left the building or it just doesn't pay enuff to re-shoot.
After all your white balance is just loww on saturation not the 'wrong' color

here is the button that adds the TRACK EFFECK FILTERS
located in VEGAS 5

[sdsumike619]

everyone thus far has told me I had a bad white balance on the DVC80... is there a sure-fire way to get a GOOD white balance so i get a good quality picture like the canon (that had no white balance set) did?

[edDV]

everyone thus far has told me I had a bad white balance on the DVC80... is there a sure-fire way to get a GOOD white balance so i get a good quality picture like the canon (that had no white balance set) did?

Here is my read of your problem from the data provided in this thread and the other one.

#1 Problem - Over bright DVD playback after you adjust to the computer monitor.

This was covered in the previous thread. Your black level is climbing for one and possibly two reasons.

A properly composed image should look dark on the computer monitor because you are looking at the blacks at zero IRE and the computer monitor has different gamma than a TV set. The DVD player is going to lift your blacks 7.5 IRE (7.5%) on playback. This will brighten the image.

After seeing the picture above I suspect you have a second issue of 7.5 IRE setup on your Panasonic capture. The difference in black levels (as seen on the waveform monitor) between your two cameras was almost exactly 7.5 IRE. How did you capture from the two camcorders?

Having 7.5 IRE setup on the captured video will double your over bright problem when the DVD is encoded and played back on the DVD player. Assuming everything else is perfect (i.e. you don't adjust it to look good on the computer monitor) you will still have blacks at 15 IRE which is 7.5% high. The TV AGC references black to the blanking level and will assume 15 IRE is gray not black.

#2 Problem - Matching cameras for a multi camera shoot.

First DV camcorder black level should be zero IRE by default. Your two cameras had a 7.5 IRE difference which is either due to a capture problem or an incorrect setting on the Panasonic.

Second white balance should be done with both cameras side by side shooting the same white card in the same light ideally where the subject's head will be. Auto white balance and AGC should be switched off on both cameras especially for controlled interior lighting like in your picture. Manual gain should be set for the subject (or a stand in) sitting in front of the two cameras. If this can't be done, use the white card.*

If color correction in post is required, you will then be making as few as one filter setting to match the cameras over the full shoot instead of chasing the AGC with keyframes every few seconds.

Matching a 3CCD premium camera to a single chip consumer camera will never be perfect. To make the differences less noticable, use the cheaper cam for the tight shots and the better cam for the wider establishing shot.

Mileage will vary but that's how I would do it.

* For a pro shoot, a waveform monitor/vectorscope and calibrated video monitor would be used to match the cameras.

[sdsumike619]

I captured the video from both camcorders with the Canon to the computer. I do this to avoid using the heads on the expensive panasonic camera - does that make a difference that I capture the footage with the canon only?

the panasonic is set to 0%, it has that option so I set it correctly already..

"A properly composed image should look dark on the computer monitor because you are looking at the blacks at zero IRE and the computer monitor has different gamma than a TV set."

Does this mean that the "fixed" image that BJ_M posted will be too bright on the TV since it looks good on the computer?

The canon is just a cheapy consumer camera, it doesn't have a lot of manual control..

It would just be nice for the picture to look at least somewhat close with normal settings on the monitor and the tv for our customers...one of those things that just bugs the !@#$ out of ya (me)

[edDV]

I captured the video from both camcorders with the Canon to the computer. I do this to avoid using the heads on the expensive panasonic camera - does that make a difference that I capture the footage with the canon only?
the panasonic is set to 0%, it has that option so I set it correctly already..

I assume you are using the IEEE-1394 connection. I can't think of a reason why the transfer would be different but you might want to compare levels to a playback-transfer from the Panasonic. I'll look through the AG-DVC80 manual for some obscure settings.

"A properly composed image should look dark on the computer monitor because you are looking at the blacks at zero IRE and the computer monitor has different gamma than a TV set."

Does this mean that the "fixed" image that BJ_M posted will be too bright on the TV since it looks good on the computer?

Yes it should. Why don't you experiment. Put that image on the Vegas timeline and author a short test DVD on erasable media. Include the Vegas color bar on the test DVD. Trial and error can be a great teacher.

It's not clear to me why the Panasonic has brighter blacks.

The canon is just a cheapy consumer camera, it doesn't have a lot of manual control..

Yes, I have a similar cheap Sony. It has poor white balance and the audio AGC drives me nuts. It takes alot of work in post to get it to match my Sony PD-150.

It would just be nice for the picture to look at least somewhat close with normal settings on the monitor and the tv for our customers...one of those things that just bugs the !@#$ out of ya (me)

Yes it's a problem and NTSC setup (7.5 IRE black) just makes the problem more difficult to manage. That is why you should be using a TV monitor hooked through the camcorder for setting image quality. Vegas and Architect both support video monitoring very well. Remember to adjust the TV monitor to the Vegas color bar first.

As for customer's DVD playback. Have them use a player like PowerDVD for computer playback. If the DVD is in spec, it will set proper black levels and deinterlace for computer monitor playback. Remember when you play a DVD on the computer, it uses 0 IRE for black. A DVD player adjusts the output to 7.5 IRE black for output to a NTSC TV.

[BJ_M]

of course now - a lot of people have HDTV's and projection and lcd tvs which DO display 0 IRE (some of them) ... Also some dvd players can do either setup also ...

[sdsumike619]

"The difference in black levels (as seen on the waveform monitor) between your two cameras was almost exactly 7.5 IRE. "

Where do you see this? I guess I don't really know how to read the waveform monitor; the lowest point on there is the black level, yes?

There's also two settings in the video scopes, checkboxes that say 7.5 IRE setup and studio rgb, should either of these be checked?

Here is what shows on the waveform monitor for the Panasonic:


And here is what shows for the Canon:


Do you see what you said you saw about the difference of 7.5 in this?

[sdsumike619]

I started to mess around with the "levels" filter - when you say I should fix the black level, does that mean I should move the input start slider to the right until the level on the waveform becomes 0 ? That makes it look more black, but on the other picture, the Canon image, the black is at 7.5% on the waveform and it looks good already; what gives?

[edDV]

Assuming you're using the DV (D1 CCIR-601) levels which are also the standard for DVD MPeg2, then the waveform monitor should be set to "Studio RGB (16-235)" on and "7.5 IRE setup" off. I'm not sure why the Vegas guys call it RGB because the standard is YUV. Never mind,it works.

In your Media Generator - Test Pattern, select SMPTE Bars (NTSC) and place on the timeline. You should see this in the scopes.



This is your standard for reference and comparison. Your TV monitor connected to the camcorder should be adjusted to this color bar using directions in these links.

http://www.indianapolisfilm.net/article.php?story=20040117004721902
http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm



So this represents the levels that should be encoded for DV or DVD. If you record this color bar to the camcorder and recapture it, the bars and levels should be identical. If you encode the bars to DVD and place the VOB on the Vegas timeline, then the bars and levels should again be identical. These tests will show that your DV recording environment is calibrated. Next I'll look at the jpg.

[edDV]

We'll use the JPG from yesterday to illustrate some issues, but the levels you see will be more accurate.

This is the raw JPG. I attemped to find representative levels from the Panasonic (main picture) and the Canon (Insert). Neither is true black but a near black from the scene. With a noisy signal like these, the "luminance level" is found in the center of the noise.

A better way to do this would be with both pictures fullscreen and comparing with a horizontal wipe.



This is my quick and dirty levels (-7.5% black, +9%white, +10% Chroma) using levels and HSL filters. Changes are only shown in the right half of the image.



Here is BJ_M's quick and dirty with the color balance filter.
Note that it put some values below black. Those would be truncated at 0 IRE during encoding.

[edDV]

I started to mess around with the "levels" filter - when you say I should fix the black level, does that mean I should move the input start slider to the right until the level on the waveform becomes 0 ? That makes it look more black, but on the other picture, the Canon image, the black is at 7.5% on the waveform and it looks good already; what gives?

I did this:
input start = 7.5 this reduces black level 7.5%
input end = 0.91 this stretches whites +9%

Your picture did not include a true black. The closest I could find is the fret area on the neck of the guitar. So you wouldn't take that all the way down to 0 IRE or you may squash some detail in the blacks. It's best to search for the darkest point over the scene to set a near black. Vegas may have a tool to find the blackest black and whitest white.

At the other end, you should watch out for white spikes exceeding 105 IRE (for 5% headroom). DV will truncate whites around 108 IRE. You should try to avoid hitting 108.

A scene like yours may not have a true white so don't push it to high.

Your main goal for using this tool is to get a "good" black and white level and to match the two cameras. Judgement should be done using the video monitor.

[sdsumike619]

I think i might be starting to get the hang of it...so whether that studio RGB box is checked or not the luminance level of black should be centered on 0 in the waveform monitor? And the way I do that is to use the input start slider in the levels filter? (that's how i did it)

Now my question is about the other end of the spectrum at the top of the waveform, do I adjust the "input end" slider to bring the highest point on the graph which is at 66% , to 100%?

When I do those two things, along with that color balance, I get a pretty good looking picture on both the TV and the CRT, what do you think?



Mike

[sdsumike619]

technical question; i started using this external firewire drive and I plugged it into the firewire card I bought and I have that and the firewire to my camera connected to that same card. When I try to run the preview on external monitor feature in vegas, it looks like there is a conflict, preview shuts off every few seconds when I hit play.

Apparently I'm not able to have the firewire drive and the firewire to the camera on the same card? Even though there are three ports on the card? is there a way to stop the conflict?

[edDV]

I think i might be starting to get the hang of it...so whether that studio RGB box is checked or not the luminance level of black should be centered on 0 in the waveform monitor? And the way I do that is to use the input start slider in the levels filter? (that's how i did it)

The studio RGB box should be checked to get DV/DVD standard (long technical reason deleted).

You need to use judgement based on picture content. Your picture has lots of detail near black but no hard blacks due to flat lighting. I wouldn't push it all the way down to zero. I'd maybe use 1-2 IRE and match both cameras there.

Now my question is about the other end of the spectrum at the top of the waveform, do I adjust the "input end" slider to bring the highest point on the graph which is at 66% , to 100%?

Again you need to use judgement based on picture content. I see no full white in your image (e.g. an unfiltered light in the scene might saturate the CCD at 108 IRE) The brightest spots I see are the light reflections on the watch and ring. Keep those below 105 IRE but use judgementfor how the overall scene looks.

When I do those two things, along with that color balance, I get a pretty good looking picture on both the TV and the CRT, what do you think?

Looks good here, but you have the TV monitor.

Next step is to encode a test DVD with sample scenes and the color bar. The TV will need to be readjusted to the color bar on the DVD because the DVD player will insert a 7.5 IRE setup. The TV adjustment for this color bar should also look good for a commercial DVD and broadcast channels. If it does you are getting close.

[sdsumike619]

good deal; it's not critical that it's dead on to the NTSC spec; I just don't want anything EXTREME like the customer having to adjust the brightness on his TV all the way down to get a good picture and I think you've helped me accomplish that.. I don't care if they need to make small adjustments since everyone's TV is set differently.... The main problem was definitely that black level; just like you said, it was up around 8% and then the DVD player you said adds another 8% and that's what was causing the washed out picture, it makes sense now somewhat...

Did you read my next post about the firewire conflict? Any idea on that?

[edDV]

technical question; i started using this external firewire drive and I plugged it into the firewire card I bought and I have that and the firewire to my camera connected to that same card. When I try to run the preview on external monitor feature in vegas, it looks like there is a conflict, preview shuts off every few seconds when I hit play.

Apparently I'm not able to have the firewire drive and the firewire to the camera on the same card? Even though there are three ports on the card? is there a way to stop the conflict?

I recommend you unplug the drive while capturing if it is causing problems. I find that the sequence of adding devices affects which is sending vs receiving data. I hope someone can recommend a utility to control multiple firewire devices.

In Vegas 5, you can choose the capture device in Preferences - VideoDevice.

[edDV]

I put your image2.jpg on my timeline and it looks from here that you went too far down on the blacks with some hitting saturation at digital zero. Remember that the MPeg2 encoder is going to chop off everything below 0 IRE. You need to get the useful signal above 0IRE. Also, the whites look a bit too hot.

Again,the best final judgement will be from the DVD playback on the TV monitor.



Here is what Vegas help says about the Studio RGB (16 to 235) setting.

They reccommend to set this ON for the Sony Pictures Digital DV codec
and OFF for the Mainconcept DV codec.

[BJ_M]

edDV - the part of my image that is below black is the part that is in the PiP - as i did the whole image global (and that part was already at 0) ..

good explanation on levels ...

[edDV]

Yes, you did say you were only correcting for the Panasonic. I was only pointing out that anything below 0 IRE won't pass the encode.

[sdsumike619]

hmm, so are you saying that it's best to not have any of the data showing below 0? I thought I was supposed to adjust so that the meat of the data was around the 0 line..

About the firewire thing, it's not the capture i'm having trouble with, it's the fact that the data is on the firewire drive which is connected to that card and the preview to the external monitor is connected to that card too, and that's where the conflict is coming in I think?