DVD-RW Dual Layer announced

[Gurm]

Actually the Sony player did that on PURPOSE. Sony has always been very restrictive of what their players will play. To this day, some (most?) Sony DVD players won't play burnt VCD's. *shrug*

And yeah, you've had amazing success - largely due to your Pioneer player, methinks. While Pioneer doesn't like out-of-spec MPEG streams, it is AMAZINGLY tolerant of burnt discs of any stripe. I've never had a disc that didn't work in the Pioneer, although I've had many not work in plenty of other brands of player.

See, that's the problem with people that argue in favor of current dual-layer media. They go "oh it worked for me". I'm sure it did. Sadly, more than 50% of end-users won't share your experience. Look on this board and others - see how many "I burnt my first dual-layer disc and it won't play" or "my dual layer discs get stuck on the layer change" or "Nero won't burn dual-layer for me" or "my box doesn't like my dual-layer discs, but my friend's Pioneer does" threads there are. A lot.

[Shocker Milwaukee]

To this day, some (most?) Sony DVD players won't play burnt VCD's. *shrug*

FWIW - Both my Sony DVD players play burned VCDs.

[robertazimmerman]

Well, I'm hoping that the dual layer DVD-Rs will have improved compatibility. Supposedly the reason for the long delay in coming out with this format is the fact that the Forum wanted the discs to have virtually the same compatibility as regular DVD-Rs.

None of my 3 Toshiba DVD players will play DVD+Rs, so I have avoided them like the plague! When burning copies for friends, I always use Mitsui (now MAM?) or TDK DVD-Rs and no one has had problems playing them.

So bring on the dual layer DVD-Rs! If I have problem playing them, I'll use them for data backups.

I agree with another poster though, if Toshiba and Sony get their acts together and come out with a unified format (as the latest rumours indicate they will), I'll be one of the first to buy a machine that can store 50GB of compressed data or a few hours of HD video.

For the audiophiles amongst you....were you aware that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray specs both include a requirement for uncompressed audio? No more crappy sounding Dolby 5.1, DTS or that crap Lucas tries to foist on us. We will finally have true, uncompressed surround sound. Bring it on!

Please pardon the digression!

Roberta

[Edmund Blackadder]

See, that's the problem with people that argue in favor of current dual-layer media. They go "oh it worked for me". I'm sure it did. Sadly, more than 50% of end-users won't share your experience. Look on this board and others - see how many "I burnt my first dual-layer disc and it won't play" or "my dual layer discs get stuck on the layer change" or "Nero won't burn dual-layer for me" or "my box doesn't like my dual-layer discs, but my friend's Pioneer does" threads there are. A lot.

Sadly, more than 50% of end-users don't know what they are doing! If they keep using crappy software and maybe forget to set the booktype too of course they'll have trouble with DVD+R DL media. I do a similar thing to what lumis does and have a near 100% playback success. Besides being compatible with Pioneer players there's much more.

My toshiba DVD D-R1SG recorder could never play even a single layer DVD+R without bitsetting to DVD-ROM. It plays DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM booktype and recorded with RecordNow 7.2+ flawlessly. Again, how many tests would you like me to do before you get convinced that the above mentioned burning method on DVD+R DL media is nearly 100% compatible??? Ever since I got into DL burning (almost a year ago), I did some tests on a regular basis in electronics stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, Tweeter, CompUSA, etc.) on a wide variety of DVD players and combos, and the burning process I use has only been rejected once by a Zenith DVD recorder (but it also rejected DVD+R with DVD-ROM booktype). Only one deck did that! All of them played through the layer change successfully. I mean what else do you need to know before you get convinced that with the right tools DVD+R DL is nearly a 100% success? Try it for yourself if you don't believe me, before coming to negative conclusions about DVD+R DL format. Abandon Nero and DVD Decrypter for DL burning, and try some decent software for once.

I even got my old Toshiba SD-M1202 DVD-ROM drive (year 1998) to successfully read Verbatim DVD+R DL recorded with RecordNow 7.3 on Pioneer A09XL. That drive cannot even read DVD-RW or DVD+RW, and often pixelates on DVD-R or DVD+R! Not a problem with Verbatim DVD+R DL.

Well, I'm hoping that the dual layer DVD-Rs will have improved compatibility. Supposedly the reason for the long delay in coming out with this format is the fact that the Forum wanted the discs to have virtually the same compatibility as regular DVD-Rs.

None of my 3 Toshiba DVD players will play DVD+Rs, so I have avoided them like the plague! When burning copies for friends, I always use Mitsui (now MAM?) or TDK DVD-Rs and no one has had problems playing them.

So bring on the dual layer DVD-Rs! If I have problem playing them, I'll use them for data backups.

Did you know that DVD-R DL will be written with DVD-R booktype and not with DVD-ROM? That means a lot of players will definitely get confused thinking that DVD-R can only be single layer. That was a really stupid move by DVD Forum. The initial report had it that DVD-R DL played in 4 out of 13 DVD drives. That's some really good compatibility... Compare that to DVD+R DL above 90% recognition success when booktype set to DVD-ROM...

Anybody wants to prove me wrong about my DVD+R DL positive points - first try my (and lumis') method of burning, test it on several players, and then say something constructive.

[Edmund Blackadder]

i've only run in to 2 cd players over the last 10 years that wouldnt play a cd-r. it was a sony dvd player

I had a similar issue trying to play a CD-R on somebody's older Sony DVD player. I solved it by switching from phthalocyanine dye (light colored used by most manufacturers now) to cyanine dye (darker color, Taiyo Yuden, Mitsubishi/Verbatim AZO, or earlier real Sony's, real TDK's, real Maxell's, etc.). I think the only manufacturer that still consistently manufactures cyanine CD-R's is Taiyo Yuden. Locally they are always available at Sam's Club branded as Maxell Music CD-R "Made in Japan" with golden tops.

[Gurm]

Sadly, more than 50% of end-users don't know what they are doing! If they keep using crappy software and maybe forget to set the booktype too of course they'll have trouble with DVD+R DL media. I do a similar thing to what lumis does and have a near 100% playback success. Besides being compatible with Pioneer players there's much more.

Good for you. Your experience is, sadly, atypical.

My toshiba DVD D-R1SG recorder could never play even a single layer DVD+R without bitsetting to DVD-ROM. It plays DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM booktype and recorded with RecordNow 7.2+ flawlessly.

Ahh, you're using Recordnow. Excellent to know that it finally (again) has a use. Back in the day, Recordnow was THE way to make nice compatible discs. Perhaps it is again, only I wish you could install it without the Sonic bloat.

Again, how many tests would you like me to do before you get convinced that the above mentioned burning method on DVD+R DL media is nearly 100% compatible???

More than you've done. I don't claim anywhere NEAR 100% compatibility even with 8x discs burnt at 4x, +R onto good TY. Decks are VASTLY different in quality across the board.

Ever since I got into DL burning <blah blah they all work blah blah SNIP>

Great. That's nice. Brand spanking new decks all play it. Woo! Here's a clue - 90% of the known world's DVD players aren't brand new. Those are the decks we worry about. If a new deck doesn't play everything under the sun then SHAME on the company who made it - it's not hard to make a universally compatible deck nowadays, hell Cyberhome does it for $30!

It's nice that you can make "100% working" discs. I guarantee you that I've got a half dozen players floating around here that will shit all over those discs. That's just the way it is.

[Edmund Blackadder]

It's nice that you can make "100% working" discs. I guarantee you that I've got a half dozen players floating around here that will shit all over those discs. That's just the way it is.

Gurm, I'm sure a lot more players will shit on your highly anticipated DVD-R DL discs recorded with some crap than on my DVD+R DL's. Three of my in house DVD players were made in the last century, and none of them have any trouble playing DVD+R DL, when recorded properly. So those players that as you say "will shit all over those discs" will most likely shit on regular single layer DVD-R or DVD+R too.

Quote:
Ever since I got into DL burning <blah blah they all work blah blah SNIP>

I know it's useless to get a point across to somebody who already formed their false fundamental opinion and won't step down. Somebody's signature in this forum was something like: "Never have an argument with a man who's wrong". Well, I'm not going to argue anymore with you, Gurm. Also, your avatar is a perfect example of your rude attitude in this forum, so I'll just ignore your useless posts from now on. Write what you like. Goodbye.

[Gurm]

Dude, I don't give a rat's shit about DVD-R DL either. ALL dual-layer media is inherently not particularly compatible.

You can carry on all day about how great yours is and how it's worked in all your players and whatnot, but at the end of the day, if a person reading this forum buys a DL burner and some DL media and tries to burn it... it's a 50/50 coin-toss whether they'll be successful or not.

[Edmund Blackadder]

but at the end of the day, if a person reading this forum buys a DL burner and some DL media and tries to burn it... it's a 50/50 coin-toss whether they'll be successful or not.

It's not even the end of the day yet, but I know for a fact that a lot of people still don't know how to burn their Audio CD-R's without 2-second gaps between the tracks (live recordings for example). That is a user error and not a CD format's fault. Same goes for DL DVD recordables, some people do it well and some people will be perpetually challenged. This forum is for helping those who'd like to get out of the challenged group and advance to the next level.

What I'm trying to do is to promote DVD+R DL format and the right tools for the job to those 50% of users who did not have any success with it, or didn't try it yet. All I'm trying to say in my posts is that it can work great if you do it right. If many people end up doing it right, then they'll buy more DVD+R DL discs because of their success and excitement about double layer recording and hopefully that will start driving the prices down.

Unfortunately people like you, Gurm, don't allow any flexibility and reject any new positive findings if they go against your belief. That's sad.

[HatchetMan]

I'm batting 100% using Verbatims DL's (DVD-ROM) on every player made this century. Only choked on the layer change in my Toshiba from 1999 that doesn't even play CDRs. I know you don't care. But I don't care about older machines not being compatible with them either, they all get replaced eventually. I care only about my machines. And when I buy a new one, I will do as I have in the past, take a handful of discs in with me and put those players to a test. The winner goes home with me

[Nilfennasion]

I used to have a .000 average burning DVD+R DLs on my GSA-4160 or whatever it was, and would still do if I didn't upgrade to the GSA-4163 and tried the bitsetting function. Once I did that, I found that my DVD+R DLs would play perfectly in any DVD player within the house, excepting maybe the Toshiba SD-2109, which cannot even read DVD-R and I haven't tried yet. Since I started again with bitsetting involved, my average has been close to 1.000, so I am siding with you on this one, Edmund. Even when formats don't have great compatibility at first (remember when there wasn't a DVD player that could play CD-Rs?), the market will eventually drive manufacturers to change their players around this.

[Gurm]

Nilf,

That's my POINT. My point isn't that the format isn't CAPABLE of good compatibility. Certainly all the +R DL discs WE burn work just fine. I've never said they don't. I'm saying that as a format it won't be widely accepted until Joe average can burn a disc and have it work on his set-top box, and it's a long way from that. Hell, SINGLE LAYER media is a long way from that!

When I say there's a 50% success rate, I'm not talking about people with good burners, good software, and good media. I'm talking about people with the burner that came in their Dell or was on sale at Staples, CompUSA brand media, and the bundled Nero or Roxio that was in the same box as the burner. Those people can't burn a compatible +R DL to save their lives.

[ofbarea]

Still, there's nothing quite like the solid feel of one of those chunky cassettes in your hand to add a bit of momentousness to the occasion of watching a film

Because of this I still like to watch Laserdisc movies…

On the other hand the only compatibility I’ll ever need with whatever DL format is that they are usable with any of the cheap, and almost disposable, DVD players flooding the market lately. For NTSC original and DVD+/-R(W) stuff I will use my Panasonic DVD player. For DL and PAL stuff I will continue using cheap players, hopefully my good APEX will continue to serve me well.

[Nilfennasion]

Okay, that is a very good point.

I've had three DVD burners in the past 18-24 months, and the GSA-4163B I recently upgraded to is the first I've had that can bitset. I tried to burn a DL disc once on the 4120B, and the total failure I encountered in getting it to play on anything, including the 4120B itself, really took the will to burn out of me for a while. But I have also found that many disc types that won't read on certain players will do so once bitset, which is interesting. I am beginning to suspect that some manufacturers, such as Toshiba, deliberately program their players to not read certain media. Which, naturally, does not help matters.

To be fair, I used to be little different from the people who, having just acquired a drive and some media, had not a clue what to do next. What made me different is that I was keen to find out "well, just how do I put content on these discs and make them play on my settop player?". As opposed to doing it all wrong, and assuming it is the player's fault, the drive's fault, or anyone else's fault but my own. I think that, like all matters of the computer, is the big step to make. As soon as people realise that what they get out of their computer is a reflection of what they put in, their productivity goes up in leaps and bounds. Even the Windoze thing is like that: I put it there, so I should rightly expect my Athlon 2800XP to run like a 486.

[RottenFoxBreath]

ahhh video,i can remember now sitting down to watch my blade movie and star wars vid widescreen box set in glorious 5.1 audio....no wait,thats not right..ah vhs sucks.!

[Nilfennasion]

None of my 3 Toshiba DVD players will play DVD+Rs, so I have avoided them like the plague!

You have played right into Toshiba's hands. They deliberately program the firmware of their players so that they will not play DVD+R.

[lordsmurf]

None of my 3 Toshiba DVD players will play DVD+Rs, so I have avoided them like the plague!

You have played right into Toshiba's hands. They deliberately program the firmware of their players so that they will not play DVD+R.

What a load of crap. If anything, Toshiba players tend to play more media than most players.

[handyguy]

"I can see a use for Dual Layer (both + or -) on standalone DVD recorders"

There is one, its about $238. I wrote a topic about it in the dvd recorder forum months ago. It's pretty weird looking box. Not your typical dvd recorder.

[oldfart13]

"Ya mean people actually still buy VHS tapes ?? blank or otherwise!?!?!?!?
damn!!!!!! i can't even dare to remember the last time i actually bought any kind of vhs tape"

You should buy stuff based on the collector's market that is only available on VHS. I bought 2 tapes at a flea market for $3CAD each and sold them on Ebay for $80USD! You will have to do some research as to what is out of print or not upcoming on DVD but that takes only a couple of hours at most. I do my rounds every week to select places like pawn shops and flea markets and yard sales in the spring/summer. Very lucrative if you know what you're doing...

[robertazimmerman]

None of my 3 Toshiba DVD players will play DVD+Rs, so I have avoided them like the plague!

You have played right into Toshiba's hands. They deliberately program the firmware of their players so that they will not play DVD+R.

What a load of crap. If anything, Toshiba players tend to play more media than most players.

I have no problems playing ANY brand of DVD-Rs on my 3 Toshibas. Frankly, I wouldn't care if Toshiba deliberately prevented +Rs from working. I never use them.

To be quite honest, and I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack over this comment, I don't use +Rs out of principle, When -Rs came out, their compatibility levels were more than acceptible, yet the members of the DVD+RW Alliance decided they didn't want to pay royalties to Sony/Phillips and created their own redundant formats. This only helped to add confusion to the already confused marketplace and, in my opinion, the "+" formats offer no additional benefits to the average user. In fact, they cause problems with incompatibility issues (please don't mention bitsetting as the average Joe just wants to backup TV shows, old family videos or copy movies and couldn't care less about the technical issues)

Now we have Sony (the perennial idiot: Elcaset, Beta, DAT, Mavica, Memory stick, MD, etc.) battling Toshiba (the occasional idiot: CD format war, +R incompatibility) over the next generation of HD DVD format. When will these two brain-dead giants recognize that consumers provide their bread and butter and kick their inflated egos out the door? Proprietary formats benefit no one!

Now......what was the question again?



Roberta

[dfgh11]

I'd be interested. But only as a test disc

[Xylob the Destroyer]

"Not that the JVC disc is going to come to market any time soon. The manufacturer declined to state when it expects to see its new technology commercialised."

why don't they concentrate getting the +R DL media widely available at a reasonable price first?
I'm still waiting to buy a DL burner because the media is so scarce around here and expensive as hell.
Once DL media hits $2 a disc and you can actually find it in stores, I'll "upgrade" to a DL burner -- they should be cheap as hell and super bad-ass by then...

[Nilfennasion]

*shakes his head, unable to believe what he is reading here*

You know how DVD-Rs are less than five dollars a disc now? That's because of the +RW Alliance. And that little tidbit about being able to store things on dual-layer discs? Yep, thank the +RW Alliance again. Oh, and by the way, Toshiba program their players to not be able to play +R or +R DL on purpose. Hardly makes it seem like -R is a better format, able to compete on its own merits, given that Toshiba are the biggest pushers of Consortium standards. Thankfully, bitsetting +R and +R DL discs soon puts an end to this kind of nonsense.

There are twits out there who think that having competition, or even a second player in the market, is confusing and wasteful. Given what prices are like in terms of movement when there is only one player with a certain format (and I admit, the +RW Alliance is being strangely idiotic in this respect with +R DL), the very concept of DVD recordable owes its life to the +RW Alliance. Without them, DVD-Rs would still be ten bucks a pop, probably only be 2GB or whatever the first iteration was, and by now well on its way to being like MiniDisc: a format that only a small group buys.

Any confusion is therefore to be blamed on the inability to research. :P

[robertazimmerman]

"You know how DVD-Rs are less than five dollars a disc now? That's because of the +RW Alliance. And that little tidbit about being able to store things on dual-layer discs? Yep, thank the +RW Alliance again."

Interesting.....somehow CD-Rs and CD-RWs got really cheap without format competition. There was sufficient competition between manufacturers of discs in the unified format to bring prices down very quickly.

"Oh, and by the way, Toshiba program their players to not be able to play +R or +R DL on purpose. "

Also very interesting....since many Toshiba players came out before ANY recordable discs were available. In fact, I have 3 of them. Advance programming to disable a format whose specs weren't even finalized yet? Methinks not.

"Thankfully, bitsetting +R and +R DL discs soon puts an end to this kind of nonsense."

As I said, the average consumer wants to record discs on his set-top or computer using a simple copying program and has no interest in learning how to bitset discs. Oh, by the way, bitset +DLs don't play on my machines.

"There are twits out there who think that having competition, or even a second player in the market, is confusing and wasteful. Given what prices are like in terms of movement when there is only one player with a certain format (and I admit, the +RW Alliance is being strangely idiotic in this respect with +R DL), the very concept of DVD recordable owes its life to the +RW Alliance. Without them, DVD-Rs would still be ten bucks a pop, probably only be 2GB or whatever the first iteration was, and by now well on its way to being like MiniDisc: a format that only a small group buys."

Nonsense. As noted above, pricing has nothing to do with format competition. Once development costs have been recovered, the pricing wall gets knocked down.

Innovation is created by companies looking to expand their market shares or to get consumers to replace "older" technologies. We saw the evolution of CDs to: recordables, rewritables, remasters, HDCD, SA-CD, DVD-A, DTS 5.1, dual-disc, etc. Some of these formats have failed, but they were all derived from a standardized format.

"Any confusion is therefore to be blamed on the inability to research."

Huh? Confusion is caused by Joe Average who walks in to his nearest Circuit City and wants to buy some discs so he can burn a DVD of his kid's first steps and send it to Grandma, and is confused by the different formats and doesn't know if Grandma's player will be able to handle the disc. That is plain marketing stupidity - "Let's introduce a product which provides identical functionality to an existing product and along with providing no additional benefits to the consumer will cause confusion in the marketplace. Oh yeah, at least we won't have to pay royalties to the Sony/Phillips alliance." Brilliant.

Roberta

[robertazimmerman]

Correction: SACD, DVD-A and DTS CDs were not derived from the Red Book CD format, but were in fact evolutions of the woefully inadequate standard CD.

[Nilfennasion]

CD-Rs and CD-RWs were still overly expensive here until DVD hit the market. But competition there is very different to competition in DVD. Unlike CD, which is basically owned by one or two companies, DVD standards are owned by a large consortium, who all collude rather than compete. It was therefore necessary for a group of outsiders to introduce real competition.

There is also not a single Toshiba DVD player I have encountered that plays +R of any flavour without bitsetting, in spite of the fact that they were manufactured long after the recordables were released. Not being able to play because of reflectivity issues is one thing, but when you can bitset and trick a player into thinking this is a pressed DVD, it is usually a good sign the manufacturer didn't want the player to play that format. If that isn't monopolism, what is?

Like Microsoft, the DVD Consortium doesn't want the user to learn, and therefore doesn't invite them. It is not a coincidence that I had no idea how to burn a DVD until I landed on a website that only exists within the tiniest of legal loopholes. Granted, the +RW Alliance is just as guilty of this, but if a trick existed in order to get my product to play on as many machines as possible, you can bet I would let people know about it.

Man, that was the funniest thing I ever heard. You know how long it took prices of CDs in Australia to get knocked down? They were introduced in 1984. Parallel importing laws were introduced in the late 1990s or early 2000s. Increased competition caused prices to come down shortly thereafter. That's around fifteen years. Which, knowing the crap-spouting ability of companies like Toshiba or Sony, I don't doubt is how long it would have taken DVD±Rs to come down to a reasonable level. By the way, doesn't America still have laws protecting the exclusivity of importing CDs? Have you seen what CD prices have done there over the last ten years?

Innovation comes from a lot of sources too. I have diabetes, and I can tell you with no doubt in my mind that if Eli Lily had not entered the market with a synthesis of human insulin around the late 1980s, we diabetics would all still be injecting ineffective porcine or bovine source insulins.

I can already name two benefits that switching to DVD+R had for me. One, I do not get nearly as many random pauses in playback. I still get them, but the power in this area is pretty iffy at best. Still, I have never had a DVD+R suddenly halt in mid-dialogue for a second or more in totally random places. Two, I generally get faster burns, since the DVD Consortium seems to have its thumb up its butt about phasing 16X discs into the market. I have already saved incalcuable time with DVD+Rs that, though marketed as 4X-8X, will burn at 12X. Which saves wear and tear on my drive. The +RW Alliance seems to keep bringing out the first of everything that the hardcore enthusiast actually wants, rather than the DVD Consortium's avowed tactic of telling them what they want. But yay DVD-R, right?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a format that can be burned on any drive and played on any player, but I don't burn DVDs so a handful of monopolists can tell me how I use the data. And the Consortium has so many companies in it whose advertising is based on flat-out lies (Toshiba... *cough*... Toshiba) that I would be lost if they were the sole makers of recordables. Not to mention we flat-out wouldn't have DL discs if not for the +RW Alliance.

[robertazimmerman]

Well....I guess it's the pricing differences may have to do with our locales. I'm in Canada and have had absolutely no complaints about the prices of CD-R/RWs and DVD-R/RWs for a long time. Yup, when CD-Rs first arrived on the scene, they cost $15 each. Within a year the price was down to around $1.50 each and now you can easily find blanks for under $0.25. This pricing is simply a result of supply (many manufacturers) and demand (many users of CD burners). I recently bought a (mini) lifetime supply of DVD-Rs from a local chain store (Future Shop). Their price for Kodak DVD-Rs was 200 units for $60, or $0.30 apiece.

The discs' writing speed is really not an issue for me. I am not in the business of burning DVD-Rs and therefore don't really care if my machine can churn them out at 12X or 16X speeds. If I was burning 20 per day, I'd probably care, but as I rarely burn more than 2-3 at a time, I'm perfectly satisfied with my 4x burner. It's not like I'm sitting at the PC waiting for the discs to pop out. I'm usually reading, listening to music, watching TV or doing something else while the discs are being burned.

If a company wants to be innovative, they can do it within the confines of one of the formats. Just because a company manufactures DVD+R machines doesn't make them more likely to develop a new writable technology any faster than a mfg. of DVD-Rs.

I agree with you that increased competition reduces prices, but I don't see this as competition per se. I see this as market confusion. Do you remember how long it took for Beta machines to finally disappear from the marketplace? I'll bet that Beta owners weren't too happy.

I believe that SACD and DVD-A have failed (to this point) because they are causing confusion in the marketplace. I consider myself an audiophile and have some pretty pricey equipment in my home, yet I haven't bought a hi-rez audio player simply because I don't want to invest in a format that may disappear. If one of the two formats was to go away, I'd be standing in line waiting to buy a player and a boatload of discs made by the survivor (and kin).

With respect to your comments about Toshiba players not handling +Rs, I agree. I've yet to meet one that can handle this format. Clearly they don't care, or like Sony in other cases, simply won't even admit that there is another format. This, however, is not an issue for people who only buy -Rs. When I burn a disk for family members, I only use -Rs as I know that the discs will likely play on their machines. Despite claims to the contrary by the +R advocates, I wouldn't be so sure if I sent out +Rs.

I'm not sure if it's the area you live in, but I've never had any problems with name brand DVD-Rs. No freezing, pausing, or any other glitches. I would guess that it's a combination of the brands of discs that you use, your player and the power problems in your area that caused the problems with DVD-Rs.

I had an interesting conversation with a buddy of mine recently. He told me that it's rare for him to buy or rent a disc that doesn't pause at some point. My feeling is that the problem is his JVC (Junky Video Crap) player. The very discs that he complains about play flawlessly on my 3 Toshiba players. I only use MAM (formerly Mitsui), Sony, Kodak & TDK discs and they all perform perfectly. So I think it's more than simply switching from -Rs to +Rs.

"The +RW Alliance seems to keep bringing out the first of everything that the hardcore enthusiast actually wants, rather than the DVD Consortium's avowed tactic of telling them what they want. But yay DVD-R, right?"

Well, I'd consider myself a hardcore enthusiast, but neither side has a DL disc that will play in my machines. I've heard that compatibility levels for this format is 30%-40%. I think I'll wait for high-def machines to come out. Oh damn, another format war..........sigh.

Nice chatting!

Roberta 8)

[RDS1955]

I think that we need to get DVD-R DL first...

Look Here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817507001

I bought 15, I can burn them on my Plextor PX-716UF, but they will not play on my Stand Alone DVD Players... "Sigh".... Guess I've got to get a new DVD Player now...

PARANOID?!?!? WHO'S PARANOID!?!?!?

[Edmund Blackadder]

To be quite honest, and I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack over this comment, I don't use +Rs out of principle, When -Rs came out, their compatibility levels were more than acceptible, yet the members of the DVD+RW Alliance decided they didn't want to pay royalties to Sony/Phillips and created their own redundant formats.

I'm sorry if I break any illusions, but Sony and Philips are the founders of the DVD+RW Alliance (together with a few other companies like HP and Verbatim):

http://www.dvdrw.com/alliance/history.htm

And just the fact that they allow greater flexibility, such as bitsetting, is worth using the "+" format, especially the DL version. On the DVD Forum's end, DVD-R DL has already proven to be a disaster.

Look Here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817507001

I bought 15, I can burn them on my Plextor PX-716UF, but they will not play on my Stand Alone DVD Players... "Sigh".... Guess I've got to get a new DVD Player now...

... or keep your existing players and get some DVD+R DL's instead. Record them with bitsetting and they will play almost everywhere.

[robertazimmerman]

My mistake with the "Alliance" reference. From what I had read, the "+" format was created because those folks did not want to pay royalties. This may or may not be true.

In either case, I don't see what is gained from having a "+" format. Compatibility issues can be addressed by manufacturers simply by offering upgrades to existing hardware. We know that this can be done as all one needs to do is perform a "hack" search in videohelp.com. So if the manufaturers allowed users to upgrade their machines to accept DVD-Rs, DVD-RWs & DVD-R/DL, the other format would be a moot one.

In the meantime, bitsetting is for those who like to play and come to sites like this one. The average guy simply wants "compatibility".

This topic is getting boring......

Roberta