"minus" RW and "VR mode" - Buyer Beware.

[D'oh!]

I have used both "plus" and "dash" systems. I can tell you from experience that the "dash" RW format is a joke when compared to the "plus" RW format. Especially in "VR" mode.

How anyone can defend this format is beyond me. I made a recording on a pioneer 220s in VR mode and when I went to finalize it (something you don't have to do on a "plus" system) it told me to wait 26 minutes. Talk about the biggest joke.

There is no question in my mind that if you are buying a DVD recorder you should choose the PLUS format.

An easy explanation to shoppers who are new to DVD Recorder buying:

When you record on a "plus" RW disk you don't have to finalize it. Just "record" then take out the disk and it will play on other DVD players. On a "dash" disk you have to Finalize the disk FIRST before it will play elsewhere. If you decide to record more information on that disk you have to first UN-FINALIZE it. Also, on the "dash" systems (like pioneer) if you want all those neat editing features, that means you'll have to use what is called the "VR" format on an "RW" disk (it isn't even available on "R" disks so you are stuck with very little features on those disks). The "VR" format is the biggest joke in the world because the disks that you will be creating are not playable on 99% of all the DVD players out there. Also, let's not forget that sometimes when you want to FINALIZE one of those "VR" "dash" disks... it can sometimes take an HOUR (when you don't have to even wait a SECOND with a "plus" disk).

I challenge somebody here to explain how the "VR" mode will survive? I think the "VR" mode was DOA and it's a total SHAM to include it on ANY recorder.

My advice:

Avoid "VR" at all costs.
Avoid "dash" if at all possible. In my mind the "dash" is truly a "minus".

D'oh!

[FulciLives]

Stand alone DVD recorders that record to DVD-RW will allow you to do so using the "DVD Video" mode as well as the "VR" mode.

The solution is to use the "DVD Video" mode.

It is that simple.

DVD+R or DVD+RW suck. Pure and simple.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
It is very simple to take a DVD-RW recorded in "DVD Video mode" and import it to your computer, edit, then re-author.

[steve2713]

DVD-RW DOES suck, pure and simple. DVD+RW is a better format, agreed. DVD+VR is better than DVD-VR. DVD+R and DVD-R is a whole different argument, and either perform perfectly for 99% of their users.

[kenmasters83]

weird fulci because all my players play my dvd+r disks jsut fine and dandy i even got a dvd recorder that records to +r..

[FulciLives]

Well there is not one stand alone DVD recorder of any real quality that records to DVD+RW so ...

You pretty much have to go with a -R / -RW unit.

I don't see that as a big deal because you can use "DVD Video" mode with a DVD-RW and most of us with stand alone DVD recorders have no problems re-doing them on the computer with something like TMPGEnc DVD Author etc.

I just think the original person that started this had no idea what he/she was talking about.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[D'oh!]

FulciLives said:

Stand alone DVD recorders that record to DVD-RW will allow you to do so using the "DVD Video" mode as well as the "VR" mode.

The solution is to use the "DVD Video" mode.

It is that simple.

DVD+R or DVD+RW suck. Pure and simple.

Wow. such a technical response! I guess if the "plus" format "sucks" then that tells me all I need to know

Yes. Use the "DVD video" mode when using "dash" disks. By doing so you also throw away all your cool editing features (Pioneer 220s for example). Also, you STILL have to finalize the "dash" disk.

I guess you didn't read my post. I challenge somebody here to show me how the "VR" format is not dead on arrival.

Also, if you can have one of two rewritable disks and one does not need finalizing and the other one does... why the hell choose the one that requires it?

Also, not everyone buys a DVD recorder so they can re-author the disks on thier computer. Which by the way "plus" disks allow just fine (and are the choice format of microsoft).

As I have said, I have used both formats and I offer my opinion from hands on experience. Before buying a "dash" system BEWARE that all those nice editing features may only be available in the totally incompatible "VR" mode. Also, be aware of the issue regarding "finalizing" "dash" disks and the sometimes horribly long finalize times on a "VR" "RW".

I would avoid the hassles and buy a "plus" system. There's a reason you see more "plus" RW disks at major stores.

D'oh!

[FulciLives]

The second post proves it.

Someone here is definately clueless and it ain't me.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[budz]

D'oh wrote

An easy explanation to shoppers who are new to DVD Recorder buying:

When you record on a "plus" RW disk you don't have to finalize it. Just "record" then take out the disk and it will play on other DVD players.

Ummmm....you need to make sure you're posting the correct facts regarding DVD+RW media.....my friend has one of those DVD+R/RW LITEON RECORDERS that the discs burned in VR MODE have to be finalized before it can be played on any other standalone dvd player or computer. therefore it doesn't only affect DVD-RW media but DVD+RW as well. :P

[ckwok1]

You should really do a forum search first. Please spend more time in understanding the pros and cons of different format (DVD-Video, DVD+VR, DVD-VR) before making such a statement.

Just note that all DVD recorders with a good brandname (except Philips) supports DVD-VR mode (including Sony now). This does not prove anything but this is something for you to think about.

[siratfus]

Am I learning something new or is "D'OH!" providing false information? I've never heard of dvds whether it be R or Rw & whether it be dash or plus that did not need finalizing.

D'OH! also mentioned about how you can UN-FINALIZE a dvd-rw... I did not know that either. I thought once an RW is finalize, it is over.

[samijubal]

Philips is a good brand name? That's news to me.

[lumis]

one thing i like about vr mode when recording with my pioneer 220 (living room) is that i dont have to finalize the disc in order to watch it in my dv-270 in the bedroom. if i recorder in dvd-video mode i would have to wait for it to finalize. if i record in vr mode i can also use the "chase play" feature of the dvd recorder. the vr discs also playback in my computer without finalization. those are the only real uses i've found for it.

[D'oh!]

My post was directed at the average consumer and is my opinion after having used various recorders and formats.

I am fully aware of the differences in DVD-VIDEO, VR, "dash" and "plus". I own four DVD recorders (two "dash" and two "plus").

example:

If the average consumer buys a pioneer 220s (for example) they may be suprised to find out that all those nice editing features are only available when using the "VR" format on "RW" disks. Also, that those disks created will not play on the majority of "players".

So then go ahead and use the DVD-VIDEO mode so your disks will be "compatible" with players. Why have all those nice "VR" features on the recorder if nobody is ever going to use them?

Also. I doubt "joe blow consumer" is going to appreciate an hour long finalize time (VR -RW).

I agree that the "dash" R and "plus" R formats are pretty much even. But I think the "dash" RW world is being harmed by the limitations of the "-VR" format and the requirement to finalize. I can point out several reasons why you may not want to use a "-RW" disk. Can you in turn show me negative reasons I should not use a +RW disk?

D'oh!

[D'oh!]

page 71 of the Pioneer 220s manual:

Undo finalize

You can undo the finalization on DVD-RW discs recorded on this recorder in Video Mode. You need to do this if you want to record more material or edit material already on the disc.

You can also undo finalization of VR mode discs which have been finanlized on other DVD recorders.

My facts are correct.

[joeg04]

If you want to get a DVD, compatible to DVD Video format:

For HDD DVD recorders, DVD-R(W) (Video) is best. Edit on HDD, then copy in high speed to DVD-R(W) and finalize.

For DVD recorders without HDD, if you have a PC, DVD-RW (VR or Video) is best. Record to DVD-RW, finalize, then edit on PC and burn to DVD-R(W).

For DVD recorders without HDD, if you have no PC, DVD+RW is best. Edit on DVD. If you record from a digital settop box, set it to 4:3 mode, so that it converts anamorphic 16:9 into letterbox format, see below.

Main disadvantages of +VR format:
(1) The +VR format is best implemented in Philips recorders, but most of them are unreliable.
(2) A 16:9 wide screen signal from a digital settop box can be recorded using the +VR format, but not in a way that is compatible to the DVD Video Format. That means, anamorphic 16:9 recordings are displayed in the correct aspect ratio if recorded and played back on a Philips DVD+RW recorder, but in an incorrect aspect ratio, if then played back on a normal DVD player. Sony Recorders up to now can't store a wide screen signal on DVD+R(W) disks.

[steve2713]

joeg04, no offense, but your 'disadvantages' to the +VR format you listed are recorder related problems, not a problem of the format itself. I've got a Pioneer 420 myself and it's a great machine, but it'd be a better machine if it supported +RW as well as -RW. -RW sucks.

And regarding your opinion that -RW is the 'best' choice unless you don't have a PC for editing, again what's your basis on that? You say to copy to a -RW and do your editing on a PC, how is -RW IN ANY WAY superior to +RW in performing that function?? It's not.

[budz]

D'oh wrote

So then go ahead and use the DVD-VIDEO mode so your disks will be "compatible" with players. Why have all those nice "VR" features on the recorder if nobody is ever going to use them?

Yup, I am one of them that will not use the VR FEATURES.....Why???? Because I have no reason to use it when I can use my pc's to edit and create my own menus....."COMPATIBLITY" is important to me....I could give a hoot about the VR MODE FEATURES......you've merely stated your dislike of using DVD-RW because it takes too long to finalize....don't confuse others by posting DVD+RW discs can be played back when it is NOT FINALIZED because in my experience it can not....my friend who has the LITEON gave me discs that weren't finalized and could not be read by any of my dvdroms or dvd burners on my pcs.......nuff said

[markhamPete]

Which by the way "plus" disks allow just fine (and are the choice format of microsoft).
D'oh!

LOL. There's one good reason to stay with "dash" R.

[parallax1]

DVD+R or DVD+RW suck. Pure and simple.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Reason?

[lordsmurf]

D'oh wrote

An easy explanation to shoppers who are new to DVD Recorder buying:

When you record on a "plus" RW disk you don't have to finalize it. Just "record" then take out the disk and it will play on other DVD players.

Ummmm....you need to make sure you're posting the correct facts regarding DVD+RW media.....my friend has one of those DVD+R/RW LITEON RECORDERS that the discs burned in VR MODE have to be finalized before it can be played on any other standalone dvd player or computer. therefore it doesn't only affect DVD-RW media but DVD+RW as well. :P

What? No.
DVD+VR is the format. Period.
DVD+RW need no finalize. DVD+R need finalize.
Really easy stuff here.

[joeg04]

...not a problem of the format itself.

steve2713, no offense either. It is a limitation of the +VR format. The +VR editing possiblities make it necessary to have only one VTS*.IFO file for the whole disk. So it is not possible to have a widescreen flag for each title.
In the normal DVD video format, there are VTS*.IFO files for each title, containing the widescreen flags.

how is -RW IN ANY WAY superior to +RW in performing that function?? It's not.

For PC transfer the easiest is using -VR format. Advantage: Wide screen info has not to be modified at the PC. TDA can read -VR format.
Condition: For the selected recording mode in -VR, the recorder has implemented a DVD video format compatible resolution.

[lordsmurf]

True DVD+VR is CVBR. That's wholly inferior to true VBR DVD-VR (in either VIDEO or VR modes). No contest.

[Captain315]

Well, after reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that " I don't know what the hell to buy." There are so many "opinions" and "bias" that I can't make heads or tails of it. To add to the confusion is my lack of understanding some of the terminology used on here (I'm still trying to find an explanation of what MUX and DEMUX is). I know you can't put explanations for each term used so I just struggle along, straining my tiny brain and trying to understand what the whole thing means. I guess the bottom line is, "I'd like to buy a good recorder for my satellite system that has a hard drive and will do either PLUS or MINUS R/RW disks. I've looked in the recorder guides and am still confused. I've been reading that the Zenith PVR is "probably" a good machine. Anyone have any suggestions?

[linetest]

Well, after reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that " I don't know what the hell to buy."

Ditto!
On another thread, I was trying to get feedback on machines and ended up with more media replies than machine replies (thanks though for those, I can use all the help I can get)!
I'm going to end up throwing a dart at a sale ad and simply buying any old machine and whatever media it takes and just test.

[Frobozz]

D'oh! commented on the long finalization time for VR mode DVD-RW. The finalization with the VR mode discs depends on how much is recorded to the disc. If it is nearly full then the finalization is short. However, this is just silly anyway from what I can tell. What point is there to finalizing a VR mode DVD-RW? Even after finalization it can't be played on other players (with a few exceptions such as the example posted above by lumis).

So VR-mode DVD-RW doesn't need finalizing because you only are going to use it on the unit that recorded it.

I use VR-Mode DVD-RW when I want to expand the capacity of my Pioneer DVR-510H hard drive. By recording to one of these discs I can later do a high-speed copy back to the hard drive for later burning to a video mode DVD-R or DVD-RW.

Please note that I'm not trying to say that VR-mode DVD-RW is better than anything else. I'm just saying it is useful at times and that finalization of those discs makes no sense to me.

[ckwok1]

How anyone can defend this format is beyond me. I made a recording on a pioneer 220s in VR mode and when I went to finalize it (something you don't have to do on a "plus" system) it told me to wait 26 minutes. Talk about the biggest joke.

You don't need to finalize a DVD-VR mode disc before playing on another DVD-VR compatible player. At least it is true for Pioneer, JVC and PC.

Why you want to finalize a DVD-VR mode disc?

When you record on a "plus" RW disk you don't have to finalize it. Just "record" then take out the disk and it will play on other DVD players. On a "dash" disk you have to Finalize the disk FIRST before it will play elsewhere.

Some recorder actually use DVD+VR format on DVD-R/RW disc!

I challenge somebody here to explain how the "VR" mode will survive? I think the "VR" mode was DOA and it's a total SHAM to include it on ANY recorder.

I don't like challenge but
(1) DVD-VR mode is the only mode that allows you to record both audio channels of bilingual program (when using NICAM/A2) and allow you to select the language at play back time.

(2) DVD-VR editing allows true deletion. Deleted section can be reused immediately.

(3) DVD-VR allows better resolution at certain recording mode. For example, at 3 hour mode, the horizontal resolution is 576 on JVC or 480 on Pioneer which is better than 352 on DVD-video and DVD+VR mode.

(4) Playback while recording is only possible on DVD-VR format disc (or HD). It seems to me that it is not possible on DVD-video and DVD+VR format.

(5) I remember reading a post that DVD-VR mode provides fault management which is able to map out "bad" sectors. But I am not sure about this.


I hope those reasons are enough for DVD-VR to survive .

[ckwok1]

Before I forget, the following links list some limitations of DVD+VR format.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=259004

[oldfart13]

I don't like challenge cry.gif but
(1) DVD-VR mode is the only mode that allows you to record both audio channels of bilingual program (when using NICAM/A2) and allow you to select the language at play back time.

(2) DVD-VR editing allows true deletion. Deleted section can be reused immediately.

(3) DVD-VR allows better resolution at certain recording mode. For example, at 3 hour mode, the horizontal resolution is 576 on JVC or 480 on Pioneer which is better than 352 on DVD-video and DVD+VR mode.

(4) I remember reading a post that DVD-VR mode provides fault management which is able to map out "bad" sectors. But I am not sure about this.

1) I don't know...will DVD-RAM also do this? Never tried it as I have no need for multiple language files when recording in my area.

2) DVD-RAM had this from day 1...

3) I've been following a thread on avsforums and it's been shown that the Panasonic units from the E80/E100 model year on do not switch the resolution until they hit the 2 hour and 59 minute mark when recording in FR mode. Prior to that, earlier models did so at the 2 hour and 20 minute mark. Bitrate would need to be altered on a longer cap then, but not the resolution...

4) DVD-RAM does this as the recording is treated as a file on the disc which has error correction for bad sectors.

[steve2713]

The problem with DVD-VR is that it records in a non-standard format (and often resolutions), which is playable by nearly zero standalone DVD players and will often require re-encoding to create a standard DVD VIDEO disc. Not so with DVD+VR, they record in a standard file system that is playable on most any standalone DVD player, and they record in standard resolutions, avoiding re-encoding that is often needed with DVD-VR recordings.

This is a BIG negative for me, and DVD-VR is something I'll never have a use for because of it. For someone that's planning on recording something, playing it back once on their recorder, then deleting, DVD-VR would be fine. But for my uses, I just record to my HD or record to a DVD-RW as a DVD VIDEO disc, there's no use for DVD-VR. DVD+VR would be a nice alternative that would create a more compliant disc instead of a non-standard disc.

In the end this comes down to what you plan on doing with your recordings, but for what I do with my recordings, DVD-VR is worthless, although it will work fine for those that use it as a replay device.

[joeg04]

The problem with DVD-VR is that it records in a non-standard format (and often resolutions)

The Pioneers have "standard" resolution in -VR format for the following recording modes: Up to 2 hours (what I would normally use) and 220 minutes or more. These recording modes would need no re-encoding.
See the last table in the following link:
http://www.dv-rec.de/test/player200312/pio3100s/main.html

The +VR format is fine, too. But it doesn't keep the widescreen flag in a "compatible" way, as I already wrote. What I don't know however, if TDA reads the Philips-proprietary WS-info stored outside the VIDEO_TS folder.

In DVD video format, the ouptput of TDA, an experienced PC user should be able to correct the WS-flag using IfoEdit: open relevant IFO file, click on VTSI_MAT, double-click on line 200 (hex) and change aspect ratio, then save the file.