"minus" RW and "VR mode" - Buyer Beware.

[steve2713]

Thanks joeg04, I knew that though, the manual has a table splitting up where the resolution changes are at. I just find DVD+VR to be a better format, unless your only intention is to record for playback on your recorder only, with intentions of erasing the recording anyway. That doesn't describe my uses though, and having a recorder with a HD completely defeats even THAT purpose, so DVD-VR is essentially WORTHLESS if you've got a recorder with a HD.

[lordsmurf]

See... lots of confusion in this thread.

DVD-VR can do both "VR" and "VIDEO" mode. DVD-VR is the spec, "VR" and "VIDEO" are subsets of the spec. When you say you have DVD-VR, you are simply saying you have a DVD-R/DVD-RW machines. To say you have a "VR MODE" disc is to say you have either DVD-RW or DVD-RAM in a less compliant video spec on DVD. "VIDEO MODE" is DVD-Video compliant, but is still a DVD-VR method.

DVD+VR means you have a DVD+R/DVD+RW machine. There is only one "mode" here, and that's a DVD-Video spec. The RW Alliance did not want to chance making their discs any less compatible that they already were (so no VR MODE recordings here).

What is confusing is some machines appear to do DVD+VR on DVD-R media. The LiteOn 5005 comes to mind.

You finalize a disc to a minimum 1GB, so whatever time it takes, it takes. You record 100MB, you have to write a finalize that is 900MB long. You record 4.25GB, you just take 1-2 minutes to write out the finalize. All "finalize" means is write the lead-out.

VR mode needs no finalize. DVD+RW media auto-writes a short lead-out when you hit stop. DVD-VR (VIDEO MODE) and DVD+VR (on non-RW media) all needs a lead-out manually written (the "finalize").

This is how it is SUPPOSED TO BE. Watch out for makers that mix specs. Usually easy to figure out if you have true DVD+VR or true DVD-VR, regardless of the allowable media types.

[D'oh!]

Well, there certainly has been some great responses and I appreciate all the genuine replies to this topic. I really think it's a very important issue (which is why I started it!).

First, I was not aware of the "WideScreen" limitations issue in regards to "plus" disks. This does indeed seem like a problem that will need to be solved by the "plus" folks. Thank you for bringing this to my attention and I hope more is discussed on this issue!

However. My original post was to warn the AVERAGE consumer. The guy or girl who will ultimately determine which format will be the most widely accepted. I can tell you straight out that the AVERAGE consumer will never use the "dash" RW "DVD-VR" mode. Why? because it is not compatible with 99% of all players. This AVERAGE consumer will also be very upset to learn that many nice editing features are NOT available when using the standard VIDEO mode. Also, this AVERAGE consumer will choose a disk (+RW) that does NOT need to be finalized OVER a disk that DOES need to be finalized (-RW) because it's a simpler process. It's all just common sense.

I feel that it's a sham to offer a recorder to consumers that aparrently has GREAT editing features and then they find out that those features are only available in a completely NON-STANDARD format. This does not make sense to the average consumer and it will anger and confuse most buyers.

My warning stands:

Avoid "-VR" (creates completely NON-STANDARD disks).
Avoid "-RW" unless you like having to finalize and unfinalize.

I think consumers will indeed do the above and be much happier for it!

D'oh!

[samijubal]

Panasonic sells more DVD recorders by far than any other company and they do not support +RW, so saying that consumers will choose +RW just isn't true.

[pippas]

I'm certainly glad I went for DVD RAM - much easier to use -no 'finalising' or anything like that -- 100% reliable re-use (so far!)--

And if I want to keep something special-- use TMPGEnc Author to read the VR files on my PC, and use the PC to burn a DVD-R, or DVD+R, to keep.

Maximum flexibility - minimum fuss (IMHO )!

[samijubal]

I second RAM, slower but very reliable and the discs never go bad, been using some of them since 2001.

[Synergy]

I feel that it's a sham to offer a recorder to consumers that aparrently has GREAT editing features and then they find out that those features are only available in a completely NON-STANDARD format. This does not make sense to the average consumer and it will anger and confuse most buyers.

Because DVD standards were created step by step, first DVD-ROM and DVD Video standards, later DVD record-once and rewritable formats, and finally DVD-VR standard. It's no surprise that DVD-VR is the least compatible format since it came out the latest, and the competing DVD+VR developed by Philips only added further confusion as well. DVD-VR standard works best with HDD-based set-top DVD recorders and that may explain why both Panasonic and Toshiba don't sell non-HDD recorders (except combo VHS/DVD recorders) in the Japanese market anymore.

The reality is that while +RW(+VR) standard does have some playback compatibility advantage over the other camp for non-HDD recorders, the advantage quickly disappers when HDD-based recorders become the mainstream product. Just my two cents.

[lordsmurf]

Panasonic sells more DVD recorders by far than any other company and they do not support +RW, so saying that consumers will choose +RW just isn't true.

Their market share shrinks daily.

[oldfart13]

Only when compared to the larger number of Chinese recorders out there of dubious quality. Some of these units have as much as a 25% return rate. I don't think any of the big branded manufacturers have anything even close to that, Panasonic included...

[hech54]

My old Philips DVDR985 + machine has been a true workhorse and have had ZERO compatibility problems with the discs it creates.
Strangely enough my new DVD player will not play bitset RW's from my computer BUT it WILL play RW's recorded in my Philips Recorder.

[DVD_Ben]

Here's my experience with both DVD+R (unfortunately going with a Philips recorder, so my judgement on format will surely be concealed by my Philips experience) and with DVD-R in VR and Video mode.

The DVD+R on Philips 520H recorder ( ): easy and fast transfer from hard disk to disk. Nevertheless, it had to be finalized. Unfortunately (and I think it's been a recorder problem, not a format problem) the file hat pixelations and didn't work at all on another DVD player.

DVD-RW in VR mode on a Sharp HR350F recorder: works fine on the recorder. Doesn't work on my DVD player. Possibility to set your own chapter marks and maintains it when transfering the file from hard disk to DVD.

DVD-RW in Video mode on a Sharp HR350F recorder : works fine even on my DVD player. Doesn't allow for own chapter mark setting.

Nota bene: after a 15 days trial I returned the Philips recorder to the shop due to flaws (i've mentioned them) and exchanged it by the Sharp recorder with which I am much more satisfied.

[cloning is fun]

I have read through this entire subject and agree with many of the posts although there is a lot of misinformation.

I believe the answer is the Liteon 5005. Finalize times for me are about 30 seconds for all discs except +RW which you don't have to finalize. This machine, admittedly, only has a mono tuner but if there was a TV show worth recording, in stereo, it can be done thru the stereo inputs.

+RW discs don't have to be finalized and play on any other modern DVD player.

Finalize times for the other 3 formats are 30 seconds.

This machine also records on CD-R's in SVCD 1/2 hour and VCD 1 hour. SVCD quality is comparable to DVD and perfect for 1/2 hour TV shows.

[D'oh!]

If you don't know what "pre-pits" are... you should know that it is partially what makes the -RW format inferior to +RW.

A very interesting article to read regarding a direct comparison of the formats and how they actually work on the DISK level:

http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/113

D'oh!

[bugster]

However. My original post was to warn the AVERAGE consumer. The guy or girl who will ultimately determine which format will be the most widely accepted. I can tell you straight out that the AVERAGE consumer will never use the "dash" RW "DVD-VR" mode.
D'oh!

First, the AVERAGE consumer doesn't read this site, so in that respect, your post is pointless.
Secondly, the AVERAGE consumer is likley to purchase a DVD recorder as a VCR replacement, playing the recordings on the same machine that made them most of the time, so compatibility with regular standalones is not as much of an issue as you think.
Thirdly, when purchaseing, the AVERAGE consumer is more likley to be swayed by price, looks and salesmanship than whether or not a disk needs to be finalised before it can be played or compatibility with standalones.

Now, for many readers of this site, you have made several valid, if arguable, points. But don't expect the AVERAGE consumer to know or care about such things.

[D'oh!]

bugster wrote:

First, the AVERAGE consumer doesn't read this site, so in that respect, your post is pointless.

I think many AVERAGE consumers look here for simple/basic advice.

Secondly, the AVERAGE consumer is likley to purchase a DVD recorder as a VCR replacement, playing the recordings on the same machine that made them most of the time, so compatibility with regular standalones is not as much of an issue as you think.

I agree, many will buy a recorder as a VCR replacement. However, just as most of us have made VHS copies for friends to play on their own players... that's going to happen to the average consumer also. They will not be happy if they don't understand what VR mode is and that it's totally unusable in that respect.

Thirdly, when purchaseing, the AVERAGE consumer is more likley to be swayed by price, looks and salesmanship than whether or not a disk needs to be finalised before it can be played or compatibility with standalones.

I agree. That's why I posted this topic. Hopefully the AVERAGE consumer will read it and be better prepared when shopping for a recorder. If they don't know the differneces in finalizing or VR mode.... they should. If they have the facts... they will indeed make the correct decision. If they don't have the facts they'll be wondering why uncle bob can't play all those disks they made.... in VR mode. Also, many people already own a DVD player and will expect the recorded disks to PLAY on it.

Now, for many readers of this site, you have made several valid, if arguable, points. But don't expect the AVERAGE consumer to know or care about such things

I think they care. Even if they don't have the facts and make a purchase on a whim... they will certainly care after they buy a recorder and find out about compatibility issues. Everyone shares recordings. As I said, most people already own a DVD player and will expect the recorded disks to play on it. They'll also be concerned about making sure the stuff they record will work on any future investments (other player/recorders). Compatibility is always an issue... that's why in the 80's and 90's the AVERAGE computer buyer only knew ONE question to ask the salesman: "is it IBM compatibile"?

D'oh!

[hech54]

I suggest you start calling EVERY manufacturer of DVD Recorders. Get them all together and have them sit down at a meeting to discuss this issue.
Piece of cake right?
So when do you get started?



Are you done yet?
Where's the meeting going to be held?
C'mon man.....the world is waiting.